Cyprus-Forum.com

[MicAtCyp]

Great at least Genocide word is no more

It seems my friend you did not understand what I said. I said they were not for genocide, meaning that this act was not their primary goal.It does not mean they did not do genocides. In fact today 19 May is the anniversary of the 2nd phase of the genocide the Neo-Turks did on the Pontian Greeks.Switch on your TV or your radio and you will listen to your broadcasting parades for those events.Regarding the Genocide of the Armenians, notice that one of the minorities in Cyprus is Armenians.Each and everyone of them can describe you the life experiences of their fathers/mothers grandparents.For me there is no doubt that was a well designed and excecuted genocide allright....

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I am not going to justify the Ottomans and I am not
going to argue that they were angels.

OK fine.

1- It is true that non-Muslims were paying more taxes
than Muslims (Kelle Vergisi). But paying this extra tax
they were exempted from military duty. So while a poor
Anatolian Muslim Ottoman was forced to fight and die in
a place he doesn't know, the Non-Muslim Ottoman could
stay at his home and pursue his own business (Why were
the Armenians, Jews and Greeks in Istanbul so rich??)

That's interesting! Could it be attributed to the fact that only the rich stayed though?

3- Cutting the heads. Excuse me but this was a fasion in
the rest of Europe. Does the word "Guillotine" recall
you something? Did you know that France used this until
1977?

Quote:
The guillotine was from then on the only legal
execution method in France until the abolition of
the death penalty in 1981, apart from certain
crimes against the security of the state, which
entailed execution by firing squad. The last
execution was of Hamida Djandoubi and took place
on September 10, 1977

Excuse me but there is a lot of difference between a public excecution via a head cutting machine (after some sort of whatever trial) and the arbitrary taking off heads as they pleased by the pasas.Those people did not have to account to anyone and they were completely free to take off heads as they pleased as long as they maintained obedience.And this is the main reason the people under the Ottomans hate them, because of the continuous threat for their lives and for the continuous taking off from them of whatever has to do with human dignity be it life, property, daughters, wives, sons, animals, etc. I hope this answers to some other posters who thought it was a matter of heavier or lighter taxation compared to that of the Venetians.

As a Kazantzakis fun that you are I am sure you read his book "Christ is recrucified". Did you notice how the pasa of that area was acting? If not heres a small summary: One day his hanimcik/hanoumaki (Turkish boy lover) was found slaughtered. The pasa got almost crazy and was crying all day for the loss of his hanumaki.The Greek whore of the village went to comfort him and offered hereself as an "alternative" to his homosexual desires.He got so mad he took off her head with a single strike.Then he called the priest of the village.If within 10 days they would not tell him who killed his hanumaki he would take the heads of all the villagers. Finally they discovered the one who killed the boy was his Turkish secretary because he was also in love with hanumaki, however the boy would not let him. Kazantzakis describes how the pasa took his head as well and hunged him over a tree...
To summarise, the Greeks hate the Ottomans for 2 reasons:
1)For theirbarbarian and inhumane ruling
2)For taking back glorious Greece who were always pioneers in civilisation to the middle ages whereas the whole Europe advanced to renaissance.When the whole "civilised" Europe was living in mud the Greeks had Byzantium. And there came the Ottomans taking them 1000 years back, and keeping them there until the 19th century.

Again you are prejudicing against Turks without
evaluating historical facts in the context they occured.
You are comparing Ottoman Empire with today's state
system.

You are linking my opininion for the Ottoman era, with the Turks of today in an arbitrary fashion that leaves me speechless.Anyway you are free to think whatever you like.
By the way you asked of whether the Ottomans did something good, but you did not care to even mention an example. I take the liberty to help you in that.
Heres an example of a humane and well respected pasa in Cyprus, whose name we still keep as an Avenue name at Larnacas Turk-mahalla:

POLITIS ARTICLE No 369371
Written by Mr George Christodoulides, ex Mayor of Larnaca



LARNACA WATER SUPPLY AND EVKAF


The history of Larnaca’s Water supply dates back 300 or more years. Then someone decided to start a very important human and social project: To solve the problem of water supply, potable and domestic, for the citizens of Larnaca.

This person was BEKIR PASHA. He should have been a real pasha, with high power and position of authority. The most important however was that this man did care for his fellowmen. Particularly for those who suffered more from the problem of water. Bekir Pasha secured: The sources of water (in the river of Trimithi), its transport to the city with a long underground tunnel and via surface (open air) channels together with their props, the two lines of KAMARES. Finally, the installation of a number of taps in suitable and central points in the city for all the population. Still, something more important: Bekir Pasha wrote in his will that the Water supply (the Organisation) did not constitute a profit making enterprise, but a non profit one, aiming only at serving the residents without discrimination.
The management of the Organisation was assigned to the Moslem Religious Institution of EVKAF.
During its long-lasting existence, the Organisation functioned smoothly, and satisfactorily for many years. Of course there were always problems: Quantitative sufficiency, problems with the sources, maintainance of the system of transport, etc.
According to my information, in the decade of 1930, the EVKAF made appreciable improvements to the whole system. To the system of transport and better distribution in the city (extension of network) and if I remember well, older people than me, reported that the loan for the expenditure, had the guarantee of the Municipality of Larnaca.

The problems accentuated seriously around the decade of 1950. Because of insufficiency of the sources,of weaknesses in the Distribution Network and of terible difficulties in the higher regions and to the taller buildings of the city.
The administrators of EVKAF unfortunately could not watch the developments and realise the urgent need for modernisation and for serious improvements and changes to the system..
Thus the then Municipal Council was forced to move itself actively and dynamically. Initially they formed an independent committee. Then it demanded from the government to immediately make a water well aiming at supplementing the already available quantity of water. The Government made a well near the sources, Well No 112 /60 (in 1960). This additional quantity improved the situation somehow. The city, via the Municipality and the Committee demanded also from the Government, to study the possibility of aid towards the modernisation and management of Larnaca Water Supply.
However on this matter nothing could be done. So a delegation of the Municipality with the help of Mr Clerides had a meeting in Nicosia with a delegation of EVKAF, under the leadership of Mr R. Denktas.(Comment by MicAtCyp: The GC and TC political dinosaurs existed from then). In this we developed our thoughts to the subject with great sense of responsibility. The result was rather negative. The two advisors Clerides and Denktash simply had a chance to cross their swords.

The foundation of Larnaca Water Supply Council.

Because of the known events of 1963, the matter remained stagnant. However with the active efforts of the then District Officer Phoebus Zachariades the government, was forced to establish by law, in 1965, the Larnaca Water Supply Council (5/12/1965) that undertook all the responsibility for the supply of water at Larnaca. The first step was to drill a lot more new water wells.
To this first Larnaca Water Supply Council I myself and Mr Dimis Demetriou participated as representatives of the Municipality.The Chairman was the Larnaca District officer whereas there were also a representative from the Water Development department and a representative from the Accountant General Office.
It should be noted that between 1963-64 and upto 1973, the EVKAF did not practise any control on the matter of the city water supply except for the control over the water supply to the two Turkish areas.

Modern and well organised Council.

With the work done by the Larnaca Water Supply Council during the period from 1965-2000 our city has acquired a modern water system, well organised and effective. So much that it ensures sufficiency and confidence.
Naturally, now, we have new problems. Mainly the increased costs for the small and meduim consumer.

Strange-outragous claims from EVKAF

The matter is political and requires suitable handling. From the Council, the Municipality and the Government.

Ending up this article, I point out that Bekir Pasha was one of the greatest benefactors of Larnaca. Together with other great benefactors who built schools and other important institutions beneficial to the public. What we ‘ve done for his memory was to give his name to a street that today is very small and unimportant Surely today, this cannot be enough.




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And finally to the question of Magikthrill

Magik the Ottoman blacksmiths used to hot dip their swords and war axes in a barrel of blood.(OK it's barbaric I know, please don't vomit)They thought this would give them "devine killing strength". The astonishing thing is it did!!! It made their "hatzars" (?) extremely hard, unbreakable, and always sharp enough to take off someones head with a single strike!
This however was the first breakthrough in modern treatment of steel, i.e the first basic way to harden the steel is to add traces of carbon in it when it melts.(the blood the Ottomans used contained carbon)

[cannedmoose]

Magik the Ottoman blacksmiths used to hot dip their swords and war axes in a barrel of blood.(OK it's barbaric I know, please don't vomit)They thought this would give them "devine killing strength". The astonishing thing is it did!!! It made their "hatzars" (?) extremely hard, unbreakable, and always sharp enough to take off someones head with a single strike!
This however was the first breakthrough in modern treatment of steel, i.e the first basic way to harden the steel is to add traces of carbon in it when it melts.(the blood the Ottomans used contained carbon)

Blimey, learn something new every day... where the hell did you come across that re?

[detailer]

"For taking back glorious Greece who were always pioneers in civilisation to the middle ages whereas the whole Europe advanced to renaissance.When the whole "civilised" Europe was living in mud the Greeks had Byzantium. And there came the Ottomans taking them 1000 years back, and keeping them there until the 19th century.

I think they tell these nice stories to children only. I dont think anybody here is a child.

If you were so civilised!, so democratic!!!!( and you need to be very clever to achieve these things , how come these barbarians ottomans invaded and RULED greek people for 300 years?

[gabaston]

I dont think anybody here is a child.

I'm really not convinced about that.
i'm sure ive exchanged posts with a few nine year olds

[detailer]

what is "yay anasini"!?

[garbitsch]

Oh right!!! Byzantine empire was so civilised that the barbarian Ottomans gave an end to it! What a piece of story!!! Well I am not going to make comments on this since you said "this is how Greeks believe". But if you are after that, we can discuss it too...

That's interesting! Could it be attributed to the fact that only the rich stayed though?

And the poor ones were slaughtered by the Pasha and you said "they were not after genocides". You contradict with yourself. But I shall admit your argument that "Ottomans were not cruel to Greeks but its other subjects including Turks aswell", which you are right. I do not want to say "cruel" but as we all know Ottoman Empire was an Empire under the arbitrary rule of its Sultan, who had cut heads off of the ones he was suspicious. Again I am repeating, this was not something that only Ottomans did. There were lots of absolute monarchies all over Europe, and we all know how they treated their own citizens and their subjects in their colonies. What I want you Mic to state that "Ottoman Empire was not the only empire on Earth who mistreated its citizens i.e. subjects". And there is no point for Greek forum users to hate "Ottomans" and everytime talk about "the cruelties or genocides they committed". This makes we Turkish Cypriots pissed off, because we are the descendents of Ottomans and we all know what Ottomans achieved and what troubles they caused to their subjects.

As for the so-called Pontian genocide, when are you going to claim that there was a "Brazilian genocide" committed by the Ottoman Turks?

Heres an example of a humane and well respected pasa in Cyprus, whose name we still keep as an Avenue name at Larnacas Turk-mahalla:

I wonder how many T.Cs in this forum believe in your sincerity?

[turkcyp]

deleted by the author...

[gabaston]

detailer

its a comment of support for one of our oppressed forum brothers...

anyway out of a deep sense of shame ive decided to change it.

[Kifeas]

Kifeas why did you pick some phrases from the sentences and wrote them down here? Are we enough stupid for this? Read the whole story!


The bold text parts.... you didn't like them did you???

My friend,

The argument I was put against, was that there are no proofs for Ottoman Turkish atrocities in Cyprus.

The intention of my posting was not to present a summary of the Ottoman history of Cyprus. For this I provided my self the link for you to go and read. The purpose of my posting was to give evidence, in an as brief as possible way, of my allegations that were disputed by other forum members. Isn't it always a major complain not to post long texts because people cannot read them easily and comment.

Of course during the 300 years of Ottoman hardships, the Ottoman Turks would have done some positive things too. However, the overall picture of these 300 years was one of atrocities, oppression and hardships. Even the ordinary TCs, which were paying half the taxes than those the CGs were paying, were often revolting against the Ottoman Turks. Very many GCs were made to change their religion and become Muslims in order to pay fewer taxes.

Now you came back with the full text and you highlighted some parts from it, which say about how the Ottomans abolished the feudal system and freed serfs and enabled them to acquire land and work their own farms and they imposed the rule of “millet –devlet” system which upgraded the Orthodox bishops to the status of leaders of the Christians. You do not mention however that the only reason they imposed all the above was to categorise people and collect taxes, in fact much more taxes form the Christians, in a better way.

And I ask you now, do all the above summarised “extra” things which I “neglected” to include in my postings and which you highlighted in your posting change the rule?

Didn’t the massacre of 20,000 Nicosians on the day of Nicosia’s fall happen?
Didn’t the massacre of an equal number of people after the fall of Famagusta happen?
Didn’t the Ottoman Turks arrest MarcAntonio Bragadino after the surrender of Famagusta, cut his nose and ears, boiled him alive and pilled off his skin and stuffed it with straw and had him go around the city until he died?

Didn’t people on every occasion, no matter how insignificant it was, were put to death by beheading or hanging?

Didn’t the Ottoman Turks use to grab the daughters of GCs and put them into harems or sent them to the sultan for his pleasures and force them to change their religion?

Didn’t the Ottoman Turks use to grab the young sons of GCs and force them to become janissaries?

Didn’t they impose very heavy taxes on the people and make their lives totally unbearable, forcing many of them to abandon Cyprus and go to other countries in Europe?

Didn’t they arrest Archbishop Kyprianos, all the bishops and some 486 prominent GCs within one night and on the 9th of July 1821 they begun executing them one by one for 10 consecutive days?
Kyprianos and the 5 bishops were hanged, some 300 others had their heads chopped and the rest, another 200, suffered one of the most cruel-some methods of execution, called “palloukoma”?

Nothing of all the above happened? Only the few good things that you highlighted are the deeds of the Ottoman Turks? The approximately 250 thousand GCs who vanished during the 300 years of Ottoman tyranny, only because of the killings, abductions and hardships of the Ottomans, do not count for you?

You indirectly accused me of trying to cheat on everybody in this forum because of the way I presented my previous posting, although I was answering exactly the question I was asked by Murtaza, who asked me to provide evidence, and that I deliberately attempted to defame the Ottoman Turks and through them the TCs.

If this was my intention, then I would also have not included the fact that ordinary TCs were mistreated to some extend, which comes out clearly from my inclusion of the sentence below.

“ Occasional Turkish Cypriot uprisings, sometimes with their Christian neighbors, against confiscatory taxes also failed.”

If I left things out intentionally as you claimed, then why I included the above part?

And one last question. Why are you so oversensitive like Turkcyp, when someone talks about the Ottoman Turks?

Are you a Cypriot or an Ottoman Turk?

[achilles]

If you were so civilised!, so democratic!!!!( and you need to be very clever to achieve these things , how come these barbarians ottomans invaded and RULED greek people for 300 years?

The more i read your posts, the more i think you are not the brightest. I dont know...must be my bad mood because today is the memorial day of the Genocide of Pontian Hellenes. RIP to 353,000 souls...

Jenghis Khan had nothing to do with democracy, either civilization, am i right? How come he conquered half the planet about 1000 years ago?

History is full of cases where people of inferior cultures invade and crush other, way more developed and prosperous civlizations.

The extent to which Turks deny their origins, lack of contribution to the world and bloody tactics, is amazingly absurd...am i provoking? No, i am stating facts although facts tend to be unpleasant to certain people...

RIP to the victims of the Pontian Genocide...