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Little Boy & Fat Man A Hot Double Act!

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Postby Novus » Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:18 pm

Oracle wrote:
How much was known about these massacres before the H & N Bombings?

I guess if the bombs were made for the Germans, it wasn't through some act of retribution for these Japanese atrocities that heightened the need for their development.

Still seems like the Bombs were dropped as an afterthought. As though there was a need to have a play with these otherwise redundant toys .... having invested so much time and money into developing them.

If the Japanese atrocities were appreciated by the US before the Bombs were dropped, there may be reason for considering mitigation. But I don't think the massacres were considered significant in the decision to bomb Japan.

The first I heard of this major massacre (though frankly did not realise the extent of the horrifying nature of the specific crimes, till your post) was when Japan and China had a dispute a few years back. Japan was requested to, but refused to, apologise for these war crimes.
The world knew of the attocities to some degree and the knowledge was extensive enough because it happened years before we even got into the war, there were enough international witnesses there (like the Nazi) and the international response was not kind. We did not learn of the totality and the even more horrific magnitude untill later though.
In any case, despite America's isolationist policy and declaration of neutrality, Japan's invasions of much of Asia resulted in America cutting off Japan's oil supply from the US (yes, WWII was ALSO initially fought because of oil). This led to Japan to use this as an excuse to declare war on the US (casus bellum). Part, but not enough sadly, of the reason for the US policy of oil embargo was because of the invasion and occupation of the city of Nanking.

But this is an aside to my point. The Rape of Nanking did not make Hiroshima retribution whatsoever, but what it did show is just how brutal and dangerous Japan could be and showed us in yet one more way the brutality we would face if we invaded.

As far as the bombs being dropped as an afterthought, you are partly correct. If we were still at war with Germany, all teh bombs would have been dropped on Germany and not Japan untill we made more, but that is because we thought of Germany as a greater threat for most of the war.
When the war with Germany ended we had more resources to fight Japan with and the nuclaear bombs was just one of those additional resources. We used the resources against Japan we did not have available to us prior to that is all. The decision to use the bomb was NOT made lightly, it was made because it was deemed necessary to save many lives.
In other words, we now had what we thought was the best tool for the job and we used it.
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Postby Filitsa » Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:13 pm

jenfoxy wrote:Hello Filitsa

ThankYou for your comment regarding the Cyprus war in 1974. The turkish soldiers need to remain on the island to protect the Turkish Cypriot people from being killed again, Greek people used to kill off familys on the quiet,without the rest of the world knowing. Im speaking the truth now. I think you also know why the solidiers are their,Purely for protection of people...


We're off topic, jenfoxy. If you care to discuss this further, I might suggest that you open a thread dedicated to your topic.
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Postby GorillaGal » Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:49 pm

Novus wrote:
GorillaGal wrote:
Novus wrote:
GorillaGal wrote:why debate something that already happened? nothing can be done to take it back. there will always be two sides to this story. the main thing is that we accept it, respect it, and never do it again!
"Those that do not learn history are doomed to repeat it."


i didn't say forget it. i said accept it, respect it, and never do it again. just the point of discussing whether it it was an act of peace or a war crime is kind of moot. can't change things now. only prevent them from happeneing again.
My intent was to point out discussing it is a way to learn more about it so that we can better prevent it in the future. We cannot presume we know everything and do not have to learn more or else there may be a mistake we missed which we may end up repeating.
Discussing things helps us learn as much as possible to understand just why things occured.


sorry novus, i see your point, but it just seems useless. unless one of us is a rocket scientist, it just seems like a waste of hot air to talk about something we can't change, or control.
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Postby jenfoxy » Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:11 pm

Hi Filitsa ,

Sorry to intrude in your discussions about completely the wrong subject. Stay cool. Look after animals,They teach us humans alot...
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Postby Kikapu » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:46 pm

Oracle wrote:
Kikapu wrote:By the way, did the US have a third bomb ready to go, in case the first two were ignored by the Japanese, and would they have dropped it, and how many times more there after.??


Kinky-pu, since you have a way with words .....

I just wondered what names do you think these extra bombs would have been given? :wink:


Kinky-pu, since you have a way with words .....

:lol: :lol: :lol:

So do you.!! :lol:

I just wondered what names do you think these extra bombs would have been given? :wink:


I think "Pulverizer" & "Vaporizer" would have been very much spot on.!! :cry:
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Postby Bill » Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:36 pm

As far as I can remember and please bear in mind that it's good few years since I read up on this subject ~ the two bombs had totally different characteristic's .

One was designed to explode on impact and the other to explode in the air above ground level .

From what I can remember it was as much of a live experiment as it was a means of terminating a war .

Not doubt the effectiveness of both bombs in respect of range, killing power and destruction was researched and carefully measured for future reference .

Lets hope nobody does it again .

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Postby Novus » Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:45 pm

Both bombs were airbursts.

As far as study of war, every aspect of war is researched and studied from medical services, to moral of troops on both sides, to the effects of a tactic or a weapon. War is not an "experiment", but the effort was to learn as much as one can from a war so that it would not leave one unprepared for if another war happens again later.
Also know, studying the effects on the enemy of a new weapon is also preperation for if the same weapons is used on them. There is nothing nefarious about that and just because they studied it does not mean by any means that was any part of the reason for using the bomb to end the war quicker.
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Postby Oracle » Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:16 pm

On the eve of the detonation of the second bomb, on Nagasaki, I still wonder why these acts should not go down in the annals of History as amongst the greatest of War Crimes.

Whatever justification may exist (tenuous at best) for the bombing of Hiroshima ...... the mass murder by EXPERIMENT ..... of civilians at an unprecedented scale, in a matter of seconds .... and conducted surely in an experimental capacity .... the same cannot be said for the issuing of a second bomb.
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Postby Oracle » Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:18 pm

John Pilger The Guardian, Wednesday August 6 2008

Article history

When I first went to Hiroshima in 1967, the shadow on the steps was still there. It was an almost perfect impression of a human being at ease: legs splayed, back bent, one hand by her side as she sat waiting for a bank to open. At a quarter past eight on the morning of August 6, 1945, she and her silhouette were burned into the granite. I stared at the shadow for an hour or more, then walked down to the river and met a man called Yukio, whose chest was still etched with the pattern of the shirt he was wearing when the atomic bomb was dropped.

He and his family still lived in a shack thrown up in the dust of an atomic desert. He described a huge flash over the city, "a bluish light, something like an electrical short", after which wind blew like a tornado and black rain fell. "I was thrown on the ground and noticed only the stalks of my flowers were left. Everything was still and quiet, and when I got up, there were people naked, not saying anything. Some of them had no skin or hair. I was certain I was dead." Nine years later, when I returned to look for him, he was dead from leukaemia.

In the immediate aftermath of the bomb, the allied occupation authorities banned all mention of radiation poisoning and insisted that people had been killed or injured only by the bomb's blast. It was the first big lie. "No radioactivity in Hiroshima ruin" said the front page of the New York Times, a classic of disinformation and journalistic abdication, which the Australian reporter Wilfred Burchett put right with his scoop of the century. "I write this as a warning to the world," reported Burchett in the Daily Express, having reached Hiroshima after a perilous journey, the first correspondent to dare. He described hospital wards filled with people with no visible injuries but who were dying from what he called "an atomic plague". For telling this truth, his press accreditation was withdrawn, he was pilloried and smeared - and vindicated.

The atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was a criminal act on an epic scale. It was premeditated mass murder that unleashed a weapon of intrinsic criminality. For this reason its apologists have sought refuge in the mythology of the ultimate "good war", whose "ethical bath", as Richard Drayton called it, has allowed the west not only to expiate its bloody imperial past but to promote 60 years of rapacious war, always beneath the shadow of The Bomb.

The most enduring lie is that the atomic bomb was dropped to end the war in the Pacific and save lives. "Even without the atomic bombing attacks," concluded the United States Strategic Bombing Survey of 1946, "air supremacy over Japan could have exerted sufficient pressure to bring about unconditional surrender and obviate the need for invasion. Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that ... Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."

The National Archives in Washington contain US government documents that chart Japanese peace overtures as early as 1943. None was pursued. A cable sent on May 5, 1945 by the German ambassador in Tokyo and intercepted by the US dispels any doubt that the Japanese were desperate to sue for peace, including "capitulation even if the terms were hard". Instead, the US secretary of war, Henry Stimson, told President Truman he was "fearful" that the US air force would have Japan so "bombed out" that the new weapon would not be able "to show its strength". He later admitted that "no effort was made, and none was seriously considered, to achieve surrender merely in order not to have to use the bomb". His foreign policy colleagues were eager "to browbeat the Russians with the bomb held rather ostentatiously on our hip". General Leslie Groves, director of the Manhattan Project that made the bomb, testified: "There was never any illusion on my part that Russia was our enemy, and that the project was conducted on that basis." The day after Hiroshima was obliterated, President Truman voiced his satisfaction with the "overwhelming success" of "the experiment".

Since 1945, the United States is believed to have been on the brink of using nuclear weapons at least three times. In waging their bogus "war on terror", the present governments in Washington and London have declared they are prepared to make "pre-emptive" nuclear strikes against non-nuclear states. With each stroke toward the midnight of a nuclear Armageddon, the lies of justification grow more outrageous. Iran is the current "threat". But Iran has no nuclear weapons and the disinformation that it is planning a nuclear arsenal comes largely from a discredited CIA-sponsored Iranian opposition group, the MEK - just as the lies about Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction originated with the Iraqi National Congress, set up by Washington.

The role of western journalism in erecting this straw man is critical. That America's Defence Intelligence Estimate says "with high confidence" that Iran gave up its nuclear weapons programme in 2003 has been consigned to the memory hole. That Iran's president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad never threatened to "wipe Israel off the map" is of no interest. But such has been the mantra of this media "fact" that in his recent, obsequious performance before the Israeli parliament, Gordon Brown alluded to it as he threatened Iran, yet again.

This progression of lies has brought us to one of the most dangerous nuclear crises since 1945, because the real threat remains almost unmentionable in western establishment circles and therefore in the media. There is only one rampant nuclear power in the Middle East and that is Israel. The heroic Mordechai Vanunu tried to warn the world in 1986 when he smuggled out evidence that Israel was building as many as 200 nuclear warheads. In defiance of UN resolutions, Israel is today clearly itching to attack Iran, fearful that a new American administration might, just might, conduct genuine negotiations with a nation the west has defiled since Britain and America overthrew Iranian democracy in 1953.

In the New York Times on July 18, the Israeli historian Benny Morris, once considered a liberal and now a consultant to his country's political and military establishment, threatened "an Iran turned into a nuclear wasteland". This would be mass murder. For a Jew, the irony cries out.

The question begs: are the rest of us to be mere bystanders, claiming, as good Germans did, that "we did not know"? Do we hide ever more behind what Richard Falk has called "a self-righteous, one-way, legal/moral screen [with] positive images of western values and innocence portrayed as threatened, validating a campaign of unrestricted violence"? Catching war criminals is fashionable again. Radovan Karadzic stands in the dock, but Sharon and Olmert, Bush and Blair do not. Why not? The memory of Hiroshima requires an answer.
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Postby GorillaGal » Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:19 pm

Oracle wrote:On the eve of the detonation of the second bomb, on Nagasaki, I still wonder why these acts should not go down in the annals of History as amongst the greatest of War Crimes.

Whatever justification may exist (tenuous at best) for the bombing of Hiroshima ...... the mass murder by EXPERIMENT ..... of civilians at an unprecedented scale, in a matter of seconds .... and conducted surely in an experimental capacity .... the same cannot be said for the issuing of a second bomb.


agreed that this should go down as one of the worst war crimes, but don't you think the way the nazi treated the minoraties was far worse? i would think the cruel treatment of the prisoners in the camps far worse a fate than getting nuked. IMHO
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