Cyprus-Forum.com

[DT.]

Don't be too concerned DT because there was a clause in the Annan Plan that took care of exactly what you are saying. So, had Turkey gone back on her word it would have been as you were before signing. Therefore, we should be frank and admit that what we do not like is not the Annan plan itself but the philosophy behind it. BBF is our only chance to find a solution and in my eyes reckless people are those that do not see this simple plain truth. And, you can stop patronising me because I can formulate my opinions in any way I like. The same applies to you and every body else, but I will not call you names for it.

FIrstly I'd be very interested in seeing this clause. It probably exists somewhere but I don't recall it.
Secondly despite the fact that we didn't even SIGN the annan plan Turkey has been pretending that the north is now recognised as a statelet as described in the annan plan simply because they accepted it. Any upgrade on the status of the north has been solely based on this fact. Imagine if we had signed it! I think its a little naive to feel completely secure with a plan that might have been aborted by turkey because turkey would have respected one clause in the AP
Thirdly I have lost count of the amount of times you've patronised me due to you being older and "wiser" in your arguments here. I will even remind you of your characterisation of me as a fanatic and a nationalist.

[DT.]

So what DT? Are you saying that we should not talk with Turkey because they are not trustwothy? Can you suggest what else we do?

OMG! I cannot believe you just said that. You openly admit that we are dealing with dirty double crossing low lifes who have no intention of keeping there side of the bargain and thats OK for you. Bloody hell Bananiot, you are a danger to society, you need locking up.

What sort of negotiations do you expect to have with them then? perhaps we shouldn't even nogotiate, just let them tell us what they want and 'go with the flow' are you for real??

If you have to ask this questions :

Are you saying that we should not talk with Turkey because they are not trustwothy?

then you are a bigger prat than I took you for, god help us all!

I would certainly like to hear what your mate Milti has to say about this, since he gives you so much credit for being a 'what does he call it? 'A True Cypriot' I think he may now need to reconsider.

Bananiot you cannot be for real re, surely?

Don't fall in the trap of name calling Pantheman. If Bananiot wishes to label people as fanatics and traitors then let him do it. Its more important we find out what is the logic behind Bananiots confidence in building agreements with turkey with no backup plan.

[Bananiot]

I never called anyone traitor DT. It is not in my culture. On the contrary I have been called traitor by a number of forumers and you hardly showed any sensitivity to this. I also never acted as "older and wiser" than you and if you perceived anything in this way then I am sorry.

Again, I fail to see why you resort to personal things while we discuss serious matters. Will I be oatronising you if I told you to stop this?

[Kifeas]

Kikapu, I understand that there are elements of confederation in the Annan plan. However, you are wrong to assume that it was a partition plan.

I am glad you are at last, reluctantly admitting the fact that the Annan plan had (strong) elements of a confederation. So much about its disputed philosophy that you have always fervently defended!

You disagree that it was a partition plan, however; the fact that it allowed the TC state -or both states for this matter, to be set up and function on purely and exclusively mono-ethnic criteria and parameters, (as if each of the two states would have been of the sole and exclusive ownership of each of the two communities -hence the notorious and despicable constitution the Turkish side presented for the TC state, as part of the Annan plan,) is tantamount in my book with a plan (Annan) that had been nothing short of a disguised partition plan!

I remind the readers that the constitution provided by kofi Annan under his plan for the TC constituent state, spoke of a mono-cultural and mono-ethnic entity that would have regarded and treated the GC legitimate inhabitants of that state (those illegally expelled in 1974, but also every other GC,) as newcomer immigrants or a foreign element entering into a foreign country (in their otherwise own country,) that were supposed to enter through a "naturalisation" process, otherwise they would been regarded as mere "foreign" residents, just like all the rest of EU nationals. Throught such "naturalisation" process), they would have been expected to subjugate their cultural identity and subscribe to the cultural identity of the other community, in order to be able to function as normal citizens in their own country.

I remind the readers that among other things, the TC state, as one of the states of an otherwise "reunited" federal Cyprus, was allowed to import kemalism into its own constitution and institutions -a purely Turkish nationalist and anti-democratic ideology, which the GCs choosing to live in the north (within that state) would have been expected to compulsory embrace, in order to be able to exist in that part of their country as normal citizens and with "proper" political rights. In other words, with such an "innovation" on the part of the Turkish side, the GCs would have been require to concede to their "Turkification," in order to be regarded as functioning members of that state's society.

If this does not direct to a disguised partition plan, then I wonder what it would have done so!

[Kikapu]

Kikapu, I understand that there are elements of confederation in the Annan plan. However, you are wrong to assume that it was a partition plan.

At least finally I have you saying that there were elements of Confederation in the AP. By next week, I will get a full confession out of you on this subject.

Well of course the plan did not spell out P-A-R-T-I-T-I-O-N Bananiot, but all the ingredients were in the plan to have a partition when ever the time was right. It's just like having two naked people going to bed each night, that even though they did not talk about it before going to bed, "Boinking" no doubt will occur at some point.! It's just the "Laws of Probability", specially looking at the actions of the NeoPartitionist for the last 30+ years, that's all.!

Sure, me too would be over the moon, if a different solution was there for grabs. You will have to convince me though that it is practically possible and politically feasible to go for it. In the past, every time we ventured with the desirable we badly burnt our fingers. Only our worst enemy would advise us to go for the desirable. On the other hand, waiting for the balance of power to change would almost certainly result in the cementing of the current situation and of course, because the balance will change not in our favour, things on the ground would get much worse.

I though Christofias made a good offer the other day, that was posted here on the forum. But you look at that offer, and look at the one from Erdogan, and they are night and day. What Erdogan is talking about has nothing to do with the UN resolution on BBF. Of course Talat wants a solution and I believe if he was his own man, he would accept Christofias's offer, but since he is not his own man, no point talking about it.

However, a no solution during these talks will not be the end of the world for Cyprus. It will be for Turkey and Talat, but Cyprus can wait until Turkey gets the message, that they will be living the rest of their lives in Asia once the EU hopes are taken away from them, and for the "trnc", much like Turkey I'm afraid. TC's who are able to get the hell out of the north will do so with their EU passports, and the remaining TC's will be at the mercy of the settlers.

If and when in the future Turkey has moved forward and wants to join the EU one more time, then it will be easier for her to bring all her citizens back to Turkey and give all of the north back to Cyprus. It may take many more years for it to happen, but I do not believe the GC's will want to give anything to Turkey willingly with a bad solution, just for the sake of a settlement. Turkey knows full well, that any chance getting into the EU, she will have to resolve the Cyprus problem first, or, get the TC's into some Confederacy partnership where they will be able to block anything in the new RoC government on anything that has to do with the EU enlargement, unless the EU lets Turkey in, despite her imperfections. Call it blackmail if you want, but that's why a Confederacy is bad for Cyprus and is the reason why it will not be accepted by the GC's. You of all people should know that, on how your own people think Bananiot.

P.S. By the way, we get two months of holidays not three, but I still do not get it why people constantly dwell on my profession. No other member of the forum has had his job scutinised so much as mine. Not so long ago I was even told that I should be grateful I do not get the sack for writing against Papadopoulos. The very same people that come here pretending to be the guardians of democratic rights have proven that they can not stomach the most basic of democratic principles, the right to have a different opinion!

Don't you get 12 weeks for the whole year Bananiot, with Christmas, Easter, Summer, Autumn and Spring breaks. I thought this was standard everwhere, except for China perhaps.!!

Kikapu, if we won the war in 1974, there would be not a Turkish soul left on the island now. I know these people, only too well

.

I don't know what the above has to do with what we were talking about, but if we were in a court room, one of the lawyers will shout by saying "hearsay your-honour" and the judge will say "sustain".!!

This is a subject for another time Bananiot.!

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu, I understand that there are elements of confederation in the Annan plan. However, you are wrong to assume that it was a partition plan.

At least finally I have you saying that there were elements of Confederation in the AP. By next week, I will get a full confession out of you on this subject.

Well of course the plan did not spell out P-A-R-T-I-T-I-O-N Bananiot, but all the ingredients were in the plan to have a partition when ever the time was right. It's just like having two naked people going to bed each night, that even though they did not talk about it before going to bed, "Boinking" no doubt will occur at some point.! It's just the "Laws of Probability", specially looking at the actions of the NeoPartitionist for the last 30+ years, that's all.!

Sure, me too would be over the moon, if a different solution was there for grabs. You will have to convince me though that it is practically possible and politically feasible to go for it. In the past, every time we ventured with the desirable we badly burnt our fingers. Only our worst enemy would advise us to go for the desirable. On the other hand, waiting for the balance of power to change would almost certainly result in the cementing of the current situation and of course, because the balance will change not in our favour, things on the ground would get much worse.

I though Christofias made a good offer the other day, that was posted here on the forum. But you look at that offer, and look at the one from Erdogan, and they are night and day. What Erdogan is talking about has nothing to do with the UN resolution on BBF. Of course Talat wants a solution and I believe if he was his own man, he would accept Christofias's offer, but since he is not his own man, no point talking about it.

However, a no solution during these talks will not be the end of the world for Cyprus. It will be for Turkey and Talat, but Cyprus can wait until Turkey gets the message, that they will be living the rest of their lives in Asia once the EU hopes are taken away from them, and for the "trnc", much like Turkey I'm afraid. TC's who are able to get the hell out of the north will do so with their EU passports, and the remaining TC's will be at the mercy of the settlers.

If and when in the future Turkey has moved forward and wants to join the EU one more time, then it will be easier for her to bring all her citizens back to Turkey and give all of the north back to Cyprus. It may take many more years for it to happen, but I do not believe the GC's will want to give anything to Turkey willingly with a bad solution, just for the sake of a settlement. Turkey knows full well, that any chance getting into the EU, she will have to resolve the Cyprus problem first, or, get the TC's into some Confederacy partnership where they will be able to block anything in the new RoC government on anything that has to do with the EU enlargement, unless the EU lets Turkey in, despite her imperfections. Call it blackmail if you want, but that's why a Confederacy is bad for Cyprus and is the reason why it will not be accepted by the GC's. You of all people should know that, on how your own people think Bananiot.

P.S. By the way, we get two months of holidays not three, but I still do not get it why people constantly dwell on my profession. No other member of the forum has had his job scutinised so much as mine. Not so long ago I was even told that I should be grateful I do not get the sack for writing against Papadopoulos. The very same people that come here pretending to be the guardians of democratic rights have proven that they can not stomach the most basic of democratic principles, the right to have a different opinion!

Don't you get 12 weeks for the whole year Bananiot, with Christmas, Easter, Summer, Autumn and Spring breaks. I thought this was standard everwhere, except for China perhaps.!!

Kikapu, if we won the war in 1974, there would be not a Turkish soul left on the island now. I know these people, only too well

.

I don't know what the above has to do with what we were talking about, but if we were in a court room, one of the lawyers will shout by saying "hearsay your-honour" and the judge will say "sustain".!!

This is a subject for another time Bananiot.!

This is not a court room and you are neither the judge or the jury, its about time you realized this fact.

[Kikapu]

Kikapu, I understand that there are elements of confederation in the Annan plan. However, you are wrong to assume that it was a partition plan.

At least finally I have you saying that there were elements of Confederation in the AP. By next week, I will get a full confession out of you on this subject.

Well of course the plan did not spell out P-A-R-T-I-T-I-O-N Bananiot, but all the ingredients were in the plan to have a partition when ever the time was right. It's just like having two naked people going to bed each night, that even though they did not talk about it before going to bed, "Boinking" no doubt will occur at some point.! It's just the "Laws of Probability", specially looking at the actions of the NeoPartitionist for the last 30+ years, that's all.!

Sure, me too would be over the moon, if a different solution was there for grabs. You will have to convince me though that it is practically possible and politically feasible to go for it. In the past, every time we ventured with the desirable we badly burnt our fingers. Only our worst enemy would advise us to go for the desirable. On the other hand, waiting for the balance of power to change would almost certainly result in the cementing of the current situation and of course, because the balance will change not in our favour, things on the ground would get much worse.

I though Christofias made a good offer the other day, that was posted here on the forum. But you look at that offer, and look at the one from Erdogan, and they are night and day. What Erdogan is talking about has nothing to do with the UN resolution on BBF. Of course Talat wants a solution and I believe if he was his own man, he would accept Christofias's offer, but since he is not his own man, no point talking about it.

However, a no solution during these talks will not be the end of the world for Cyprus. It will be for Turkey and Talat, but Cyprus can wait until Turkey gets the message, that they will be living the rest of their lives in Asia once the EU hopes are taken away from them, and for the "trnc", much like Turkey I'm afraid. TC's who are able to get the hell out of the north will do so with their EU passports, and the remaining TC's will be at the mercy of the settlers.

If and when in the future Turkey has moved forward and wants to join the EU one more time, then it will be easier for her to bring all her citizens back to Turkey and give all of the north back to Cyprus. It may take many more years for it to happen, but I do not believe the GC's will want to give anything to Turkey willingly with a bad solution, just for the sake of a settlement. Turkey knows full well, that any chance getting into the EU, she will have to resolve the Cyprus problem first, or, get the TC's into some Confederacy partnership where they will be able to block anything in the new RoC government on anything that has to do with the EU enlargement, unless the EU lets Turkey in, despite her imperfections. Call it blackmail if you want, but that's why a Confederacy is bad for Cyprus and is the reason why it will not be accepted by the GC's. You of all people should know that, on how your own people think Bananiot.

P.S. By the way, we get two months of holidays not three, but I still do not get it why people constantly dwell on my profession. No other member of the forum has had his job scutinised so much as mine. Not so long ago I was even told that I should be grateful I do not get the sack for writing against Papadopoulos. The very same people that come here pretending to be the guardians of democratic rights have proven that they can not stomach the most basic of democratic principles, the right to have a different opinion!

Don't you get 12 weeks for the whole year Bananiot, with Christmas, Easter, Summer, Autumn and Spring breaks. I thought this was standard everwhere, except for China perhaps.!!

Kikapu, if we won the war in 1974, there would be not a Turkish soul left on the island now. I know these people, only too well

.

I don't know what the above has to do with what we were talking about, but if we were in a court room, one of the lawyers will shout by saying "hearsay your-honour" and the judge will say "sustain".!!

This is a subject for another time Bananiot.!

This is not a court room and you are neither the judge or the jury, its about time you realized this fact.

You left out "EXCECUTIONER".!! :lol:

[-mikkie2-]

The Annan plan 5 was not a federal solution. It was not a confederal solution. It was a mixture of both with the worst of both!

Earlier versions of the plan (AP3) were more closely geared to a proper federation than confederation. Unfortunately, the UN was bending over backwards to accomodate the Turks but it has to be also said that our beloved Papadopoulos did nothing to stop the eventual march to AP5 which was a disastrous plan and which would have led the new Cyprus to permanent partition. Not only that, it wiould have gone against much of the basic principles of the EU and this is where some people were placing their hopes because many AP5 provisions would be challengable in the EU courts. Clerides supported this botched plan because of this - he knew that much of it could be changed by the back door so to speak, but that would lead to unpredictable events which could have left Cyprus in a right old mess. An even bigger mess than now.

So, I hope that the aim of Christofias is to ensure that the solution he seeks will bring us a plan that is watertight, so that we don't end up galloping to new adventures (probably misadventures!). If we end up at an impasse, then so be it. Turkey will have to face the consequences of her greed and that is kissing goodbye to EU membership.

[Oracle]

It is not doing the Cyprus cause any favours to link a solution to the Cyprus problem with EU membership for Turkey.

The majority of the EU member Countries (and some of the main players France, Germany, Spain) do not want to see Turkey in the EU.

So why should they seek a solution for Cyprus, if it would also bring with it, for them, an unwanted burden, Turkey?

France Germany etc seriously want a solution for Cyprus, but not at the expense of gaining this unwanted clause.

Maybe Turkey still persists in chasing the EU, even though it makes no serious efforts to fulfil any targets set for it, because it has come to realise this.

The sooner Turkey is ousted from any potential future promise of EU entry ... the sooner we would receive SERIOUS EU backing to remove Turkey.

Then we also would not have to concern ourselves with any federal / power-sharing / guarantees, and such nonsense, solutions.

[Bananiot]

Kikapu and Kifeas, more than three years ago, I explained why I voted for the Annan Plan and I do not understand why you are making all the fuss. I am sure you have read what I wrote then. I will single out one paragraph from Kikapu's last response.

However, a no solution during these talks will not be the end of the world for Cyprus. It will be for Turkey and Talat, but Cyprus can wait until Turkey gets the message, that they will be living the rest of their lives in Asia once the EU hopes are taken away from them, and for the "trnc", much like Turkey I'm afraid. TC's who are able to get the hell out of the north will do so with their EU passports, and the remaining TC's will be at the mercy of the settlers.

For a start I would like to point out that the fervent anti Annan Plan supporters are veheminously apposed to the forthcoming talks. They claim that we would be left very much wounded in the sure event of no solution (by the way, today Talat and Christofias are expected to announce direct talks in September).

Secondly, the worse case scenario for Cyprus will be the prolonging of the stalemate. The north is being transformed at an alarming rate and pretty soon there will be nothing left to be returned or to return to. If Turkey is to pay the penalty for no solution (something I doubt very much – Erdogan said Turkey will always be one step ahead and I believe him *) then our future will be very bleak too. In fact we will have no future. Just imagine, not a single refugee returns, not one yard of territory is returned, the Turkish army stays forever and the settlers keep arriving by the thousands. Soon the population of the north will exceed that of the south and many Turkish Cypriots will be forced to leave. Cyprus will have a 250 km border with a Turkey that is "rotting in Asia".

Under these conditions the Annan Plan, despite its shortcomings, is a blessing, but only visionary people that see further than their nose can understand this. Simitis was such a person as well as Klerides and Hadjidemetriou, all decent people, whose patriotism cannot be questioned by anyone.

* Turkey can always fall back on her positive stance in 2004 and can be pretty persuasive in this regard. All thes, because of Papadopoulos’s criminal inability to bank on Annan Plan no. 3, as Mikkie noted. Many people support that he on purpose did not negotiate Annan Plan no. 3 to affect further improvements, because he wanted to put in front of the people the worse possible plan so that he would get his resounding “no”. After all, he is the father of the notion that partition is the second best solution. Of course, BBF has never been his first choice. On federation alone, he wrote thousands of pages in his newspaper “Kirikas” condemning it as a choice for solution.