Cyprus-Forum.com

[Othellos]

I have accepted that TC and TC adminatration played a (negative) role in the events of 63-74. I have accpeted the pain and suffering of GC in 74 ownards at the hands of Turkey and TC. I have appologied publicaly for the pain and suffering caused to GC by TC as far as I have any right to do so. Have you or can you do the same?

Rest assured that I know well where the GC side made its own mistakes before and after 1960. There is no point however to discuss this with you in any detail as long as you remain adamant (for obvious reasons) to your own version to the story.

What I have refuted and conintue to refute is that GC and GC leadership did not play the larger part in the troubles in Cyprus in the period 63-74. That it was not the case the overall in the period 63-74 it was TC community that were by and large the 'victims' and GCX community that were by and large the 'perptrators'. That they did not persue divisive Greek nationlist agendas in cyprus after 1960 for all of Cyprus and all Cypriots, wheather they wanted it or not. That any 'bad' actions on the part of GCwas due to a few 'extremists'. Bascially what I refute is a pervsion of the history of Cyprus in the period 63-74. I refute all of this, as always, reactivly to GC accounts of this period, never proactive

And the Turkish side pursued trough a series of preplanned actions its own nationalist agendas. It is as simple as that. The fact that there were (and still are) many thousands of GC victims because of these Turkish actions in Cyprus is another reality that you play down or leave aside.

GC community and adnministration have a responsibility for the mess that is Cyprus today. Not just a minority of extremists but the whole community - of those times and currently as far as they continue to seek to 'whitewash' the responsbility of those in the period. Accept this and we can make progress at putting this behind us. Deny it or seek to marginalise it and can see no way we can move forward. That is how I see things.

One possible answer to the above comes through reversing your own words: whatever happened to TC before 1974 does not change the reality of how the Turkish behaved in 1974 and their culpability for the mess and injustice we are now in. Deny it or seek to marginalise it and can see no way we can move forward. That is how I see things.

I would welcome an impartial truth and reconcillation comittee to cover Cyprus' history as an independent nation. I would welcome a end to both sides propaganda based versions of History. I would welcome the writting of a balanced and impartial history of Cyprus as a independent nation, that is agreed and agreeable to both sides and used as a common refernce for both (and the closest we have currently is the cyprus confilct - which I accept as such both good and bad from the TC persepctive). Can you and would you do the same, or do you want to continue to insist that it YOUR version that is true and all others are 'propaganda'?

I do not insist on anything erolz. All I am doing is presenting te counter arguments to what you write and with which I do not entirely agree or disagree. Just a couple of questions: What is a "balanced" account of the events and who can write one? Who will decide how "balanced" this is? And a reminder: there are people among us who lived through certain events and who do not need someone else's "balanced" acount to form a view.

O.

P.S: The Cyprus conflict site is just a collection of articles that were written from various angles. In my opinion, this web site is not any different from the "library" of anyone who is genuinely interested in studying seriously contemporary Cypriot history. This web site by itself is certainly not a single, balanced account of the events, although it does try to provide one in its introduction.

O.

[erolz]

I have accepted that TC and TC adminatration played a (negative) role in the events of 63-74. I have accpeted the pain and suffering of GC in 74 ownards at the hands of Turkey and TC. I have appologied publicaly for the pain and suffering caused to GC by TC as far as I have any right to do so. Have you or can you do the same?

Rest assured that I know well where the GC side made its own mistakes before and after 1960.

The GC side made mistakes. Can you not bring yourself to say they played a negative role in the events in CYprus since 1960? Can you not accept the pain and suffering of TC in Cyprus at the hands of GC? Can you not appologise for this?

There is no point however to discuss this with you in any detail as long as you remain adamant (for obvious reasons) to your own version to the story.

There is no point discussing (with me or anyone else that I have seen) the GC communites culpability and level of culpabilityfor the mess Cyprus is in today? Are you sure the reason for this is that I am admant in my version of the story and not somehting a lot more 'obvious'?

And the Turkish side pursued trough a series of preplanned actions its own nationalist agendas. It is as simple as that.

This thesis does not stand plain common sense in my view. The 1960 agrements were a victory for TC community and Turkey. They granted TC community what they wanted - protection from GC dominace, protection from forced ENOSIS, and acceptance of some degree of equality of the TC community with the GC community. The TC side did not from day one talk about the 'reluctance' of signing them, and how they were unfairly forced upon TC, of how the agreements secure bastions from which the TC side could go on to gain it's true objectives, of how the agreements were not an end of the tc national struggle but merely a step on that path. The TC community liked the 1960 consitution and the GC side did not. Yet I am to believe that it was the TC side that carry the main blame for the subversion of these agreements and the subsequent events that followed this subversion? That thesis just does not add up to me. TC and Turkey, in my view, planned alternative senarios, as far as such is true, in the face of the growing reality that GC, despite having singed the 60's agreements, where not and would not honour them, would not abandon Greek nationalist desires, would not accept and treat the TC community as equals in a partnership state, would not abide by supreme court rulings that blocked their (Greek) nationalist desires and the imposition of such on all Cypriots. As far as the TC community planned and sought alternatives to the 1960 consitution it was as a reaction to GC irredisim and not a pre planned startegy to divide Cyprus as you would have us believe. [/quote]

The fact that there were (and still are) many thousands of GC victims because of these Turkish actions in Cyprus is another reality that you play down or leave aside.

I do nto leave it aside or play it down. I accept the reality that there were and still are many thousands of GC victims of TC and T actions in Cyprus. Is it not true that there were and still are many thousands of TC victims of GC actions in Cyprus? Have you not also 'left aside' this in your atament here?

GC community and adnministration have a responsibility for the mess that is Cyprus today. Not just a minority of extremists but the whole community - of those times and currently as far as they continue to seek to 'whitewash' the responsbility of those in the period. Accept this and we can make progress at putting this behind us. Deny it or seek to marginalise it and can see no way we can move forward. That is how I see things.

One possible answer to the above comes through reversing your own words:

The below is not an 'answer' to the above - it is an avoidance of answering the above.

whatever happened to TC before 1974 does not change the reality of how the Turkish behaved in 1974 and their culpability for the mess and injustice we are now in. Deny it or seek to marginalise it and can see no way we can move forward. That is how I see things.

I have never said it does change that reality. I do not deny it (the above) or seek to marginalise it, just place it in the apporiate context, so that we can move forward. However this can not be done from one side alone.

What is a "balanced" account of the events and who can write one? Who will decide how "balanced" this is? And a reminder: there are people among us who lived through certain events and who do not need someone else's "balanced" acount to form a view.

A balanced account is one sought by and written by someone not G or GC or T or TC. Most certainly it can not and should not be written by those that lived through certain events and consider they do not need someone else's balanced account to form a balanced view, but instead assume and insist their view must be balanced because they lived through certain events. Makarios (to pick just one example) lived through certain events but I do not think he had a balanced view. I think he had a totaly one sided and partisan view.

P.S: The Cyprus conflict site is just a collection of articles that were written from various angles. In my opinion, this web site is not any different from the "library" of anyone who is genuinely interested in studying seriously contemporary Cypriot history. This web site by itself is certainly not a single, balanced account of the events, although it does try to provide one in its introduction.

O.

The Cyprus conflict is as you say a collection of articles written from various angles but it is a serious attempt at a balanced collections of such articles and analysis. I suspect it is very different from both my personal library and yours in this regard. It is not a single balanced account of the events, but it is the closest thing we curently have in my opinion, in the absense of any attempt by Cypriots to have produced such themselves.

[flighty]

Being a total outsider, my opinion is non-bias.

I went to the North side last week. I was disgusted. It is a disgrace what Turkey did to Cyprus, even more so that they still, to this very day got away with it.

They have the cheek to have welcome signs up, and their national flag everywhere.

I imagined what a similar scenario would be for me, it would be like the English doing a land-grab on Scotland, killing whoever got in their way.

I would NEVER forgive this, so I don't see how the Cypriots can be expected to live and let live. Not until justice has been done and the Turks are made to return what they stole.

In saying that, they have not even had the decency to maintain the land that they helped themselves to......they have run it into the ground. Or, even worse, they have sold the land and properties to stupid b*stards from other countries (UK included). These people are just as bad as the Turks, buying a home that is tainted with it's original owner's blood.

I would never return to the north, it has a horrible feeling to it. It is just not right. It sickened me to the point where I left after a short while and felt angry that I had ever visited - as though I condoned what they did.

Rant over.

[insan]

Being a total outsider, my opinion is non-bias.

I went to the North side last week. I was disgusted. It is a disgrace what Turkey did to Cyprus, even more so that they still, to this very day got away with it.

They have the cheek to have welcome signs up, and their national flag everywhere.

Was that the only thing disgusted you about the North? If so, you'll be disgusted in South too, because there are Greek flag all around South as well. the number og Greek flags in south is no less than the number of Turkish flags in north.

I imagined what a similar scenario would be for me, it would be like the English doing a land-grab on Scotland, killing whoever got in their way.

Before Turkey launched a military intervention in 1974; Hellenich Enosist attempted many times to grab all the land and kill whoever got in their way to annex Cyprus Greece and make it a Hellenic Island. Turkish Cypriots struggled against Enosists for more than 70 years.

Who told you that Turks killed whoever was in their way during the intervention? It was a war between Hellenes and Turks.

What would you do if a "civilian" took whatever fire gun in his hand and fire at you? During the Turkish intervention, all GC National Guard, GC reservists and all GCs who had any kind of fired arms in their hands; took side with Enosists and coupists against TCs and Turkish army in order to defeat them and achieve Enosis.

What would you do in a similar situation?

I would NEVER forgive this, so I don't see how the Cypriots can be expected to live and let live. Not until justice has been done and the Turks are made to return what they stole.

Ok. If you would never forgive; TCs and Turkey also knows not to forgive all the terrorist actions, oppressions, massacres, lootings, attempts to ethnically clence TCs on Cyprus. Not until justice has been done and the Hellenes made to return what they stole.

In saying that, they have not even had the decency to maintain the land that they helped themselves to......they have run it into the ground. Or, even worse, they have sold the land and properties to stupid b*stards from other countries (UK included). These people are just as bad as the Turks, buying a home that is tainted with it's original owner's blood.

Though, it's a waste of time to reply the posts of someone like you.

I would never return to the north, it has a horrible feeling to it. It is just not right. It sickened me to the point where I left after a short while and felt angry that I had ever visited - as though I condoned what they did.

Rant over.

The hatred and prejudices in your heart and soul will kill you.

[magikthrill]

Who told you that Turks killed whoever was in their way during the intervention? It was a war between Hellenes and Turks.

Who told you they didn't?

What would you do if a "civilian" took whatever fire gun in his hand and fire at you? During the Turkish intervention, all GC National Guard, GC reservists and all GCs who had any kind of fired arms in their hands; took side with Enosists and coupists against TCs and Turkish army in order to defeat them and achieve Enosis.

How true is this information insan about ALL GCs who had any kind of fired arms? Is it speculation true, trnc.com true or actual truth?

It seems to me if this actually happened then there wouldnt be as many refugees since they would have fought for their homes with their "firearms" and not abandoned them for safety.

[turkkan]

magikthrill, you have the british to thank for that, if they didnt threaten to bomb the turkish infantry division attacking the nicosia airport the turkish army would have continued a kilometeres into nicosia.

[Piratis]

Hellenich Enosist attempted many times to grab all the land and kill whoever got in their way

Who told you that Turks killed whoever was in their way

Typical from Insan: Magnify by 100 what we did, and minimize by 1000 what they did.

No Insan, the facts talk by themselves.

During the intercummunal conflict that lasted some years some 100s TCs got klled (GC got killed also).
During the invasion 1000s of GCs died in just days.

During the intercomunal conflict some people had to move temporarily from their homes. Nobody said what belonged to them was not theirs, and later or on they returned to their properties.
The Turkish invasion ethnically cleansed 1/3rd of the island by making refuges 200.000 GCs. 30 years after and these people are still not allowed to return. Whats worst, you don't even recognize that thier land belongs to them, and you give it to others!!

And lets not even go to the time when Ottomans ruled Cyprus, which is another huge chapter in the history of the two communities in Cyprus.

So Insan enough with the excuses. You used the intercomunal fight as an excuse (and thats one of the reasons why this intercomunal fight existed in the first place - because you wanted to use it in this way).

Sure, the GCs have committed crimes also. But the crimes that the Turks have committed in this island are 100 times more. So stop to use the 1/100th of the wrong doings by GCs to excuse the 99/100th of the wrong doings that you committed.

Ok, insan. I am waiting for your reply were, as usually, you will forget the whole history were the two communities co-existed on this island, and magnify only the 10-15 years in this history that suit you in order to excuse the crimes that you did, that you do, and that you want to continue to do forever.

[flighty]

Being a total outsider, my opinion is non-bias.

I went to the North side last week. I was disgusted. It is a disgrace what Turkey did to Cyprus, even more so that they still, to this very day got away with it.

They have the cheek to have welcome signs up, and their national flag everywhere.

Was that the only thing disgusted you about the North? If so, you'll be disgusted in South too, because there are Greek flag all around South as well. the number og Greek flags in south is no less than the number of Turkish flags in north.

I imagined what a similar scenario would be for me, it would be like the English doing a land-grab on Scotland, killing whoever got in their way.

Before Turkey launched a military intervention in 1974; Hellenich Enosist attempted many times to grab all the land and kill whoever got in their way to annex Cyprus Greece and make it a Hellenic Island. Turkish Cypriots struggled against Enosists for more than 70 years.

Who told you that Turks killed whoever was in their way during the intervention? It was a war between Hellenes and Turks.

What would you do if a "civilian" took whatever fire gun in his hand and fire at you? During the Turkish intervention, all GC National Guard, GC reservists and all GCs who had any kind of fired arms in their hands; took side with Enosists and coupists against TCs and Turkish army in order to defeat them and achieve Enosis.

What would you do in a similar situation?

I would NEVER forgive this, so I don't see how the Cypriots can be expected to live and let live. Not until justice has been done and the Turks are made to return what they stole.

Ok. If you would never forgive; TCs and Turkey also knows not to forgive all the terrorist actions, oppressions, massacres, lootings, attempts to ethnically clence TCs on Cyprus. Not until justice has been done and the Hellenes made to return what they stole.

In saying that, they have not even had the decency to maintain the land that they helped themselves to......they have run it into the ground. Or, even worse, they have sold the land and properties to stupid b*stards from other countries (UK included). These people are just as bad as the Turks, buying a home that is tainted with it's original owner's blood.

Though, it's a waste of time to reply the posts of someone like you.

I would never return to the north, it has a horrible feeling to it. It is just not right. It sickened me to the point where I left after a short while and felt angry that I had ever visited - as though I condoned what they did.

Rant over.

The hatred and prejudices in your heart and soul will kill you.

Insan - you are talking through your arse mate.

You are obviously a Turk, in denial over the terrible things that your people did.

Why not just put your hand up and admit that it was wrong!

And that nonsense about hatred and prejudices killing me - better that than a greedy Turkish b*stard who would kill me for my land!!!

[gabaston]

Flighty

Its good to read the views of outsiders, contributing an unbiased and neutral view of Cyprb.
Your example of England, land grabbing Scottish land is a bit simplistic.

A more realist analogy would be …say Jersey. Inhabited by people of both British and French ethnicity..
After being granted independence the ethnic group who had the majority decide it is unfair for the minority to share the same benefits as the majority, so they embark on ethnically cleansing the minority, but it takes too long, due to resistance from the minority. The army from the motherland of the majority then invade the island and declare that within three days they will complete their mission of genocide on the minority and become one with the motherland country of the majority.

The army from the minority’s motherland then reacts, and counter-invades, kicking out the majority army, and declares a safe zone where it is safe for the minority to live.

This then creates two zones where people are free to live.
So far this has been the only solution to stop people killing each other, and has been thus for thirty years.

Obviously these events never took place on Jersey. as no ethnic group thought they had the right to commit genocide on the other.

I hope this presents a more balanced and informed view, in helping you maintain your un-biased and welcome views.

I wish you well in Cyprus, and hope you enjoy your stay there.

[insan]

1- You deny that some groups of Hellenes struggled, warred with weapons to achieve Enosis throughout the 20th century.

2- You deny that Turkish Taksim movement was a retaliation and resitence aginst Enosis.

3- You deny that in 1967-74 period despite TMT abandoned armed struggle; Enosist kept insisting on armed struggle to achieve Enosis.

4- You deny that Hellenic Ruling Elite oppressed and terrorized TCs to accept minority status.


Shortly the story is Hellen dominated Cyprus vs survival of TC community as a politically equal community with guarantorship of Turkey.

Every possibility was taken into consideration when each side set themselves struggle and war for what they believe. The result could have been different. The amount of losses could have been equal or against TCs and Turks. In a struggle and war like this, many human losses is inevitable.

The struggle and cold-war stance still continue. Hellenic struggle first initiated in frame of Megali Idea then turned into self-determination right of Cypriots if as there was a nation called Cypriot. Now the Hellenic ruling elite adopted its plan on "European Solution"; so-called human rights and democrasy.

Still everything is possible. There are four possibilities:

1- win-win
2- win-lose
3- lose-win
4- lose-lose


So altogether, let's keep on struggling! We'll respond GC diplomacy with TC diplomacy; Hellenic arts and wiles of politics with Turkish arts and wiles of politics; Hellenic armed struggle with Turkish armed struggle. This is what your ruling elite still push Turkish side to do. Here we go then!