Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

I hate to deflect the argument somewhat, but is it REALLY feasible to repatriate tens of thousands of people from their settled lives in Cyprus back to their old lives in Turkey. Leaving aside the financial, logistical and moral elements of this, if these people have been in Cyprus for 20-30 years, are they really going to want to pack up their lives and go back to Turkey, which will be an alien country to the one they left decades ago. If not, I can't see in human rights terms how the EU could possibly sit back and watch people being dragged onto boats/planes and ferried back to Turkey. It would smack too much of the nasty population exchanges of the past...

How did 200,000 GCs have left the north, and how long did it take them to live in 1974? Have they left voluntarily and with all their belongings?

Are you suggesting that if none of the settlers wants to live, then they should be allowed to stay and further, they should all be given a citizenship status? Is that correct?

[Kifeas]

Kifeas, from my own earlier survey I estimate that there are about 35,000 settlers who came in the 70s, 10,000 settlers who came in the 80s, and smaller numbers since. All these people have also been given "TRNC citizenship", and they voted in last April's referendum. Nowadays, they tend to be accepted by the TCs as "part of our society".

Also, there was a large in-rush of "illegal workers" who came in during the 90s, when the requirement to show a passport was waived for those coming from Turkey, but not even the TC officials are sure about how many these are. Most estimates place them at around 40,000, and their presence is deeply misliked even by the TCs themselves.

Therefore, out of the 220,000 people that a census in the north revealed about 5 years ago, about 85,000 people came from Turkey and the remaining 135,000 are indigenous TCs. Is that correct?

[erolz]

How did 200,000 GCs have left the north, and how long did it take them to live in 1974? Have they left voluntarily and with all their belongings?

They left as a result of 'force' and not volutarily. In many ways this reality should mean they themselves have much sympathy for this being done (even in 'kinder' circumstances) to others. Their anger (in my personal view) is more fairly directed at the TRNC TC and Turkey and even to GC for why their own forced movement came about than at the settlers.

Are you suggesting that if none of the settlers wants to live, then they should be allowed to stay and further, they should all be given a citizenship status? Is that correct?

My view is that yes they should be allowed to stay after a solution (not the workers but the ones that are currently TRNC citizens) as Cypriot citizens. They should not necessarily be allowed to keep former GC property - esepcially if they have not paid for it in any way (monitarily or through any 'exchange of property lost in the south) but that does not mean (to me at least) they have to be expelled from the Island.

[cannedmoose]

Kifeas, in my absence Erolz just said exactly what I believe also. Yes, those who settled in the years following the invasion and those who followed during the 1980s to become TRNC citizens should stay... it may be unpalatable for GCs, but to forcibly expel them from their home (which Cyprus now is), would be to violate their rights in the same way that GC rights were violated during the invasion. These people did not come as agents of Turkey, they came because of promises of a better life and were encouraged by the TRNC leaders to do so. If anyone should be blamed, it is the government leaders, not them.

I also agree with Erolz on the property issue. Where this people are in possession of GC owned property, yes, they should be moved on to new accommodation. But this movement cannot be imposed immediately, there must be suitable and equivalent property found.

You've got to see both sides Kifeas, these aren't merely settlers, they are human beings like you and me. If you'd been born a Turk in northern Anatolia and someone had come to you with promises of a job, land and a house, wouldn't you have snatched their arm off? I think so. We can't arbitrarily generalise and say that all settlers are bad and aim at the Turkification of the island. As fully-fledged Cypriot citizens (I feel that if they are granted citizenship, they should abandon their Turkish passports as a sign of this), they could potentially contribute greatly to the economy and social structure of the island, ultimately becoming, as many of their children have, Cypriots rather than Turks.

[Alexandros Lordos]

Kifeas, from my own earlier survey I estimate that there are about 35,000 settlers who came in the 70s, 10,000 settlers who came in the 80s, and smaller numbers since. All these people have also been given "TRNC citizenship", and they voted in last April's referendum. Nowadays, they tend to be accepted by the TCs as "part of our society".

Also, there was a large in-rush of "illegal workers" who came in during the 90s, when the requirement to show a passport was waived for those coming from Turkey, but not even the TC officials are sure about how many these are. Most estimates place them at around 40,000, and their presence is deeply misliked even by the TCs themselves.

Therefore, out of the 220,000 people that a census in the north revealed about 5 years ago, about 85,000 people came from Turkey and the remaining 135,000 are indigenous TCs. Is that correct?

Yes, I believe these are the true figures.

[cannedmoose]

It certainly sounds like a more truthful reflection on numbers than the 120,000 settlers- 80,000 TCs argument...

[Alexandros Lordos]

Where this people are in possession of GC owned property, yes, they should be moved on to new accommodation. But this movement cannot be imposed immediately, there must be suitable and equivalent property found.

Cannedmoose, most of these people are farmers, they use quite a few donums of land per family as well as their primary residence, all of which of course is of GC ownership. Where exactly do you propose they should be moved? All the land in Cyprus belongs to someone, therefore whatever property you give them will have to be taken from someone else. Who from, then? The TCs perhaps? I am not sure they would be any more happy than the GCs to make such a donation.

If you'd been born a Turk in northern Anatolia and someone had come to you with promises of a job, land and a house, wouldn't you have snatched their arm off? I think so.

Surely they knew that the properties that they would settle into for free, did not just ... grow on trees? I am not sure I fully agree with the argument that "the settlers are totally innocent, it's the Turkish government / TC leadership that is to blame". If someone offers to give me, say, a free DVD player, which I know has been stolen, I am just as guilty for taking it as is the person who passed it on to me.

[garbitsch]

Alex, your analogy is quite different in the case of settlers. These people did not regard the lands of Greek Cypriots as "stolen by Turks". They saw these territories liberated Turkish land. They've never though that one day these lands will be handed to their owners again. Here, I see no big guilt on the side of the settlers.

[Alexandros Lordos]

Alex, your analogy is quite different in the case of settlers. These people did not regard the lands of Greek Cypriots as "stolen by Turks". They saw these territories liberated Turkish land. They've never though that one day these lands will be handed to their owners again. Here, I see no big guilt on the side of the settlers.

He he, if we transfer this argument back to my analogy, we can say that the DVD player was "liberated" rather than stolen ...

But more seriously, I am not saying that these people should be punished in any way, they shouldn't be thrown out into the street to starve or be put in prison or anything like that. They should indeed be given free houses by those who promised them free houses in the first place, i.e. by Turkey. This of course can only be done within the borders of Turkey, where the Turkish government is in possession of ample property ...

[Murtaza]

Alex, your analogy is quite different in the case of settlers. These people did not regard the lands of Greek Cypriots as "stolen by Turks". They saw these territories liberated Turkish land. They've never though that one day these lands will be handed to their owners again. Here, I see no big guilt on the side of the settlers.

He he, if we transfer this argument back to my analogy, we can say that the DVD player was "liberated" rather than stolen ...

But more seriously, I am not saying that these people should be punished in any way, they shouldn't be thrown out into the street to starve or be put in prison or anything like that. They should indeed be given free houses by those who promised them free houses in the first place, i.e. by Turkey. This of course can only be done within the borders of Turkey, where the Turkish government is in possession of ample property ...

I want learn something why the GC want removal of immigrats?
Just the place they hold. Or there is other reasons too?