Cyprus-Forum.com

[Alexandros Lordos]

It would seem that the proposal that "all settlers should leave", is NOT unacceptable to TCs, so long as they are all re-housed, by Turkey, at their original place of residence. This of course will also require Turkey to live up to her own responsibilities vis-a-vis the Cyprus Problem ...

What defintion of 'settler' are you using here?

It includes everyone who came to Cyprus from Turkey after 1974, except those who intermarried with TCs and their offspring. So it includes BOTH the early wave of settlement, AND the more recent wave of "illegal workers"

I personaly would be very unlikely to vote for such a settlement. I think this would be a betrayal of these people by the TRNC and am not sure I could be an active party to this kind of thing. Having said that I fear you may be right that a majority of TC would not share this view with me and would be willing to 'sacrafice' (as I see it) these people. Just my personal view.

About 40% of TCs would oppose such a settlement, according to my study, so you are not alone ...

As I said, it would have to be a difficult - and historic - compromise, in order to reach a settlement.

I also want to see these people being treated justly, and the more I think about it, the more it seems to me that this would be a just approach. These people came to Cyprus out of economic need, and surely they too miss their own original homeland. Just "kicking them out" would certainly be unfair, but if they can be given a new house at their original place of origin, that's a different story ...

If settlers remain, they will be treated like unwelcome third class citizens by the GCs. Inevitably tension and conflict would develop, the victims of which will be the settlers themselves. Why allow ourselves to descend into this bloodshed? So that we can defend the "principle" that "these people are to be protected", but without truly protecting them in the end?

[erolz]

I also want to see these people being treated justly, and the more I think about it, the more it seems to me that this would be a just approach. These people came to Cyprus out of economic need, and surely they too miss their own original homeland. Just "kicking them out" would certainly be unfair, but if they can be given a new house at their original place of origin, that's a different story ...

If they can be convinced to leave of their own volition then I have no problem. If they are to be forced to leave against their wil then I do have a problem.

If settlers remain, they will be treated like unwelcome third class citizens by the GCs. Inevitably tension and conflict would develop, the victims of which will be the settlers themselves. Why allow ourselves to descend into this bloodshed? So that we can defend the "principle" that "these people are to be protected", but without truly protecting them in the end?

To me if they are treated as 3rd class citizens by any other Cypriots then this is something the new Cypriot state should take measures to prevent - by legislation and prosecutiuon if necessary. To me the 'fear' that we may not be able to treat these people with dignity and respect for them and thier rights as human beings is not a (valid imo) reason to 'expel' them. It is a valid reason to make every effort to change our attitudes and prejudices.

[Alexandros Lordos]

I also want to see these people being treated justly, and the more I think about it, the more it seems to me that this would be a just approach. These people came to Cyprus out of economic need, and surely they too miss their own original homeland. Just "kicking them out" would certainly be unfair, but if they can be given a new house at their original place of origin, that's a different story ...

If they can be convinced to leave of their own volition then I have no problem. If they are to be forced to leave against their will then I do have a problem.

Well, making the departure of settlers voluntary would be a dead horse with the GCs even before the start of the race, but it would be interesting to see how the settlers themselves feel about the above proposal (i.e. that all of them be made to depart, so as to be given a new house by Turkey at their place of origin) ... I will be able to do this separate analysis of the data, so, in case they themselves are stongly in favour, would you then accept it?

If settlers remain, they will be treated like unwelcome third class citizens by the GCs. Inevitably tension and conflict would develop, the victims of which will be the settlers themselves. Why allow ourselves to descend into this bloodshed? So that we can defend the "principle" that "these people are to be protected", but without truly protecting them in the end?

To me if they are treated as 3rd class citizens by any other Cypriots then this is something the new Cypriot state should take measures to prevent - by legislation and prosecutiuon if necessary. To me the 'fear' that we may not be able to treat these people with dignity and respect for them and thier rights as human beings is not a (valid imo) reason to 'expel' them. It is a valid reason to make every effort to change our attitudes and prejudices.

My friend, if it was up to me, I would have no problem to welcome these people. But I really don't see a way to change such strong public opinion attitudes that are held by the vast majority of GCs. Though I do favor any efforts to inform the GC public about how "the settlers are also human", the circumstances under which they came here will mean that for many more decades they will be seen by most GCs as "nothing more but gypsies and instruments of Turkish policy".

The most effective advocates in favor of the settlers could be the enclaved GCs in Karpasia, I have heard some of them say that "we have no problem with the settlers here, we co-operate harmoniously" and this has had some effect on GC opinion. So maybe, if you want to be active in this issue, you could go up there and speak to the enclaved GCs about it - then do a documentary or something.

Personally, the fact that many settlers actually speak Greek (because they originate from Trapezounta region in Turkey which had many Greeks until the 1920s) has changed my attitude towards them substantially. Everyone keeps forgetting that, not just TCs, but also the majority of Turks have earlier historical experiences of co-existence with Greek-speaking populations.

[cannedmoose]

I hate to deflect the argument somewhat, but is it REALLY feasible to repatriate tens of thousands of people from their settled lives in Cyprus back to their old lives in Turkey. Leaving aside the financial, logistical and moral elements of this, if these people have been in Cyprus for 20-30 years, are they really going to want to pack up their lives and go back to Turkey, which will be an alien country to the one they left decades ago. If not, I can't see in human rights terms how the EU could possibly sit back and watch people being dragged onto boats/planes and ferried back to Turkey. It would smack too much of the nasty population exchanges of the past...

As for settlers being treated as third-class citizens, I think you're right Alex, many GCs have been brought up to regard the settlers as little better than the dirt they step in. However, I agree with Erolz, that in the event of them staying and becoming a true part of the Cypriot social fabric, it will have to be written into legislation that they are a distinct ethnic group with the same civil and human rights as other Cypriots. As time passes, the aim should be to 'Cypriotise' them in the same way as the Armenian and Maronite communities are an integral part of the Cypriot community.

I think simply talking about expelling them is missing the point. These are people, not numbers. They could also be a potential boon to the island in future years, giving the Cypriot economy the extra labour it has always required (not just for menial tasks but others also).

[cannedmoose]

You just addressed my points before I even made them Alex re... I know you're a psychologist but reading my mind is scary!!

[Kifeas]

I also want to see these people being treated justly, and the more I think about it, the more it seems to me that this would be a just approach. These people came to Cyprus out of economic need, and surely they too miss their own original homeland. Just "kicking them out" would certainly be unfair, but if they can be given a new house at their original place of origin, that's a different story ...

If they can be convinced to leave of their own volition then I have no problem. If they are to be forced to leave against their wil then I do have a problem.

Erol, how many such people are currently living in the north?

[Alexandros Lordos]

I also want to see these people being treated justly, and the more I think about it, the more it seems to me that this would be a just approach. These people came to Cyprus out of economic need, and surely they too miss their own original homeland. Just "kicking them out" would certainly be unfair, but if they can be given a new house at their original place of origin, that's a different story ...

If they can be convinced to leave of their own volition then I have no problem. If they are to be forced to leave against their wil then I do have a problem.

Erol, how many such people are currently living in the north?

He he, the million-dollar question ...

[Kifeas]

I also want to see these people being treated justly, and the more I think about it, the more it seems to me that this would be a just approach. These people came to Cyprus out of economic need, and surely they too miss their own original homeland. Just "kicking them out" would certainly be unfair, but if they can be given a new house at their original place of origin, that's a different story ...

If they can be convinced to leave of their own volition then I have no problem. If they are to be forced to leave against their wil then I do have a problem.

Erol, how many such people are currently living in the north?

He he, the million-dollar question ...

I mean Aprpoximatelly!

[erolz]

so, in case they themselves are stongly in favour, would you then accept it?

Yes, credible evidence that these people themselves strongly favoured their expulsion from Cyprus would make it a lot easier for me personaly to agree a solution that required such expulsion.

My friend, if it was up to me, I would have no problem to welcome these people.

I do not doubt it for one moment.

But I really don't see a way to change such strong public opinion attitudes that are held by the vast majority of GCs.

There was no easy way to change southern americas attitudes to racial seggregation - yet I believe it was right and necessary to 'force' the issue (which is still ongoing even today) rather than not 'force' it' based on the premise that changing such attitudes was not possible.

Though I do favor any efforts to inform the GC public about how "the settlers are also human", the circumstances under which they came here will mean that for many more decades they will be seen by most GCs as "nothing more but gypsies and instruments of Turkish policy".

I understand what you are saying. I also understand why any change of attitudes for GC (and many TC also need a change of attitude in respect of their views and behaviour towrds these people imo) will be a difficult and long term effort, frought with problems for a long time. I also understand why GC have these feeling though personaly I think their 'anger' would be more fairly directed at Turkey and the TRNC for this situation and not the settlers themselves.

The most effective advocates in favor of the settlers could be the enclaved GCs in Karpasia, I have heard some of them say that "we have no problem with the settlers here, we co-operate harmoniously" and this has had some effect on GC opinion. So maybe, if you want to be active in this issue, you could go up there and speak to the enclaved GCs about it - then do a documentary or something.

An interesting idea but in all honesty I do not feel I personally have the skills or experience necessary to make such a documentary though would welcome and support efforts of others to do so.

Personally, the fact that many settlers actually speak Greek (because they originate from Trapezounta region in Turkey which had many Greeks until the 1920s) has changed my attitude towards them substantially. Everyone keeps forgetting that, not just TCs, but also the majority of Turks have earlier historical experiences of co-existence with Greek-speaking populations.

Again interesting points you make.

[Alexandros Lordos]

Kifeas, from my own earlier survey I estimate that there are about 35,000 settlers who came in the 70s, 10,000 settlers who came in the 80s, and smaller numbers since. All these people have also been given "TRNC citizenship", and they voted in last April's referendum. Nowadays, they tend to be accepted by the TCs as "part of our society".

Also, there was a large in-rush of "illegal workers" who came in during the 90s, when the requirement to show a passport was waived for those coming from Turkey, but not even the TC officials are sure about how many these are. Most estimates place them at around 40,000, and their presence is deeply misliked even by the TCs themselves.