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ALEXIS GALANOS

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Piratis » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:04 pm

Bananiot wrote:This is what you understood? The bones of Samuel Johnson are screeching in his grave. Mind you, he probably said "refuge" rather than "resort". He knew a thing or two about pavement patriots.


Bananiot, all you can do is throw empty slogans. A patriot is the one who loves his country, as simple as that.

If you are not a patriot, if you do not love your country, then all your decisions are exclusively based on your own personal interests, or any other beliefs which are not related to the good of your country.

If we lived in a different ideal world without borders, wars and injustices then we could all just be citizens of the world. But when others show so much aggression against us, and they keep invading our island trying to impose their unfair rules over us, then we ought to do everything we can to protect ourselves and our island.

If we were all like you then there would be no Greeks on this island today. We would choose the easy way out and become Turks or British. But we are not like that, and this is why Hellenism has survived on this island for 3500 years under the worst kind of conditions.
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Postby Bananiot » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:54 pm

Well, in the 50's and 60's, fighting (sic) for enosis was the "patriotic" thing to do. Those that foresaw the dangers were quickly branded traitors and many lost their lives from bullets of "patriotic" EOKA. In fact more Greek Cypriots were murdered by EOKA than British soldiers.

In my book patriotism, means the chartering of the best path to reach a feasible target and to avoid disaster. The shortest path to disaster is to go for objectives that are unatainable despite the fact that they may be very palatable to the masses.

Venizelos had no problem signing a treaty of friendship and non agression with Turkey only a few years after the disaster of Asia Minor where some one million Greeks were uprooted from their uncestral homes and many thousands died in the battle fields.
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Postby Muzzy70 » Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:50 am

Bananiot, as a fellow Cypriot, I'm very impressed with your common sense attitude to the Cyprus problem and it's so refreshing to come across a Greek Cypriot that is prepared to tell it as it was and how it is. Your fellow compatriots, those that shoot you down are blinkered.

I'd like to sit down with you and solve the Cyprus problem. I think we could do it very quickly.

Step 1: From what I've read of your posts I presume you agreed with the Annan Plan ? If so we're 90% there.
Step 2: We both agree with the Annan Plan.
Step 3: Do you agree to 650 Turkish troops remaining on the island, as a psychological means of security for the TC community ? The troops can be withdrawn once Turkey accedes to the EU.
Step 4: Do you agree to Turkey acting as a guarantor nation for the Turkish Cypriot component state only ?
Step 5: Do you agree to a rotational presidency: 3 years GC/1year TC.
Step 6: Do you agree to the removal of the British bases ?

Let's have some doner and zivania !

Let me know.
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Postby Piratis » Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:12 am

Bananiot wrote:Well, in the 50's and 60's, fighting (sic) for enosis was the "patriotic" thing to do. Those that foresaw the dangers were quickly branded traitors and many lost their lives from bullets of "patriotic" EOKA. In fact more Greek Cypriots were murdered by EOKA than British soldiers.

In my book patriotism, means the chartering of the best path to reach a feasible target and to avoid disaster. The shortest path to disaster is to go for objectives that are unatainable despite the fact that they may be very palatable to the masses.

Venizelos had no problem signing a treaty of friendship and non agression with Turkey only a few years after the disaster of Asia Minor where some one million Greeks were uprooted from their uncestral homes and many thousands died in the battle fields.


Of course fighting for liberation was the patriotic thing to do when all our calls for allowing Cypriots to democratically and peacefully decide the destiny of their own island (as it was our right) had been denied to us. Our mistake was that at some point we stopped fighting and accepted somehting that was unfair and benefited the Turks and the British on our loss.

IF it was not for EOKA we wouldn't even have what we have today. The British would have all the time they need to comfortably divide Cyprus as they wanted by gradually dividing the Cypriot people into separate regions. Or maybe you think that the British would let all their interests in Cyprus because we would be nice with them? The only thing the British would be satisfied with is if we were all permanent slaves of them, like you are. In any other case they would apply their divide and rule games, and achieve an even worst result for us. India fought against the Colonialists in the most peaceful way with Ghandi, and still the British applied their divide and rule there. What do you have to say about that?

Venizellos also made a criminal mistake. How signing off Asia Minor to the Turks helped Greeks? On the contrary it only made it very easy for the Turks to exterminate almost all Greeks from Asia Minor, while the number of Turks in Greece is keep rising. (if the treaty was not singed, at the very least the Greeks could have exterminated all Turks from Greece in response). Treaty of "friendship and non aggression with Turkey" my ass. Turks have not stopped being as aggressive as they have always been, and history is there to prove this. (Greeks of Asia Minor, Imbros, Tenedos, invasion of Cyprus, demands in Aegean, violation of airspace, Immia incident etc etc)

It is obvious to me that you want to sign off the north part of our island to the Turks just so you will please them and think that you are Venizelos, while in fact you are clueless. But apart from empty slogans you have no arguments to support your position.

1) With Annan plan the north part of our island would be officially Turkified and Turks would have all the control over this part of Cyprus like they do now.

2) Any Greek Cypriots returning there would be the equivalent of our enclaved GCs we have now, and it is clear from many polls conducted that almost no GC is willing to go and live under Turkish occupation.

3) While now Turks are responsible to give compensations to our refugees and give them their land back, if we sign something like the Annan plan Turkey would be off the hook and we would have to compensate ourselves!

4) The Turkish army should theoretically leave after 20 years or so, but they would just go a few miles northern where they will have the right to return whenever they see fit. Furthermore I am certain that they wouldn't even leave. Today they are obligated to leave because they violate the sovereignty of Republic of Cyprus, and there are UN resolutions demanding the withdraw of their troops, and they still ignore all these and maintain 40.000 troops in Cyprus! And then you expect the Turks to honor their promise and leave when it is clear that they are not willing to do so, and when it will be much easier for them to violate that agreement than it is now?

5) With the Annan plan the Turks, through their settlers and the TCs, would be able to fully control the whole of Cyprus. The TCs/Settlers would have veto powers and this means silencing the voice of Cypriots in EU, UN or anywhere else. Cyprus would become a protectorate of Turkey.

6) We would allowed the TCs/Turks to use our own land and our or EU money to compete against us. When one of our main industries is Tourism and they would keep over 50% of the coast line, I hope you understand what that means for us.

The only "positive" of Annan plan is that it returned to the rightful owners about 7% of land (instead of the 100%, as it should), and that is again if we believe Turks would keep their promise. And since Turks would get everything they wanted from Annan plan from day one then I really don't see them giving to us anything more than part of Famagusta.

With such agreement the Cyprus problem would not be solved. It would be made worst. With Annan plan Turkey would be totally off the hook, it would control the whole of Cyprus, and the Cyprus Problem would be just a conflict between the two separate and equally recognized states in Cyprus.
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Postby Bananiot » Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:03 am

Piratis, you have a distorted opinion of historical facts, possibly because of brainwashing by school and church. Suffice to say that all Greco-Turkish wars, once Greece was established, were started by the Greeks! Even in Cyprus, we invited the Ottomans to take over Cyprus in order to get rid of our oppressors at the time. The church played a leading role in this.

Muzzy, I have no problem in accepting your proposals. I would add that we should get together and agree also on (a) shortening the time schedules (b) finding the best solution to the property issue (c) the number of settlers to remain after solution, with the humanitarian issue at our focus (d) possibility to look at issues again, after perhaps 20-30 years in order to improve things where improvement (by concensus) is considered possible, for the benefit of both component states and the people of both communities, because this is a dynamic world and things never stay the same.

The most important thing is to be open minded and care for each other, especially on the personal level because this is the area where strong friendships are bonded that can superseed age-long sick nationalist feelings that have been imprinted into our DNA by misantropists that get high only with the smell of blood.
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Postby DT. » Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:42 am

Bananiot wrote:Piratis, you have a distorted opinion of historical facts, possibly because of brainwashing by school and church. Suffice to say that all Greco-Turkish wars, once Greece was established, were started by the Greeks! Even in Cyprus, we invited the Ottomans to take over Cyprus in order to get rid of our oppressors at the time. The church played a leading role in this.

Muzzy, I have no problem in accepting your proposals. I would add that we should get together and agree also on (a) shortening the time schedules (b) finding the best solution to the property issue (c) the number of settlers to remain after solution, with the humanitarian issue at our focus (d) possibility to look at issues again, after perhaps 20-30 years in order to improve things where improvement (by concensus) is considered possible, for the benefit of both component states and the people of both communities, because this is a dynamic world and things never stay the same.

The most important thing is to be open minded and care for each other, especially on the personal level because this is the area where strong friendships are bonded that can superseed age-long sick nationalist feelings that have been imprinted into our DNA by misantropists that get high only with the smell of blood.


Impressive, I see you've decided to kick things up a notch these days. Something must be happening again. Something which requires your immediate attention in case these uneducated brainwashed plebs you share a country with screw it up for you again.

Read Piratis's comments on the Annan plan and if you like we can have one more dedicated thread on this. Read Kikapu's feelings on the "con" he calls the Annan plan. Read Birs posts when he warns his fellow Turkish Cypriots that had the Greek Cypriots signed that unfair plan we would have had trouble later. Better make it fair now so that we don't get fanatical later.

But that's not enough for you is it? Not even TC's telling you that the plan was a racist monstrosity.

As for your friend Cymart, I know Mr Galanos very well both from my family's side and from my wife's side. I can spend a good 2 days researching and provide you with a list 4 pages long on critical issues he's decided to flip flop on over his career. This is not an insult on the man, merely an observation that his priorities changed frequently.

Finally, when it comes to getting back land, the value of land we own in Morphou and Nikitas would have provided the next 4 generations of my family with an affluent lifestyle. That's not enough though. I saw that plan as the dangerous one-sided racist toilet paper that it was and no amount of land or money could make me support it.
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Postby Piratis » Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:45 am

Bananiot wrote:Piratis, you have a distorted opinion of historical facts, possibly because of brainwashing by school and church. Suffice to say that all Greco-Turkish wars, once Greece was established, were started by the Greeks! Even in Cyprus, we invited the Ottomans to take over Cyprus in order to get rid of our oppressors at the time. The church played a leading role in this.


Bananiot, you apparently received an enormous amount of Turkish brainwashing because you repeat their most obvious Turkish lies. I am atheist and I never go to church, and I have received education, including political science courses, in countries outside of Cyprus and Greece. What I say is based on historical facts and the truth. It is sad to see that to all my valid arguments above all you can do is to try to discredit me instead of trying to make some valid argument. Apparently you can't make any arguments and I am not surprised.

In Cyprus we have never invited the Ottomans, this is the most ridiculous (and clearly Turkish) crap you ever said in this forum.

And the Greeks made liberation struggles. When the great majority of the population of a territory is for 1000s of years Greek, and it is under Turkish rule, you dare say that the Greeks "started a war" because they fought for their freedom? Maybe you condemn all liberation struggles of all peoples under some oppresive empire? Or this treatment is special for the Greeks only?


Muzzy, I have no problem in accepting your proposals.


No Muzzy, Bananiot, would never have a problem to accept any Turkish proposals. If you want to have somehting personal with Bananiot, e.g. taking him from behind, then by all means do.

But unfortunately for you the great majority of us do not have the slave masochistic mentality of Bananiot. We are decent people, and we will continue to fight for what is right and just. We would be glad to leave the past behind and have friendship with the Turks, but a pre-requisite for that is to stop occupying our lands and violating our rights.

The most important thing is to be open minded and care for each other, especially on the personal level because this is the area where strong friendships are bonded that can superseed age-long sick nationalist feelings that have been imprinted into our DNA by misantropists that get high only with the smell of blood.


Wrong way Bananiot. The only way to have peace and friendship is to finally allow the universal principles of democracy and human rights in Cyprus. Cypriots are not slaves. They are not able nor willing to love those who abuse them and violate their rights, and that is only natural. Friendships should be build based on mutual respect among Cypriots, this means equal Cypriot citizens without racist discriminations.

If the TCs, with the big guns of Turkey, manage to have gains on our loss then we will not have any kind of peace because:

1) Greek Cypriots will naturally resent TCs for violating their rights and taking their lands.

2) TCs will be fully aware that all these unfair gains they have on our loss are a result of the brute force applied by Turkey, and therefore they will remain on the side of Turkey as a guarantee for them that they will continue having those unfair gains in the future as well. If you believe that TCs after they would have gained land and power on our loss they will later on come and give it up voluntarily because they would be our friends, then you have no clue about international politics and the human nature. You are absolutely clueless.
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Postby Nikitas » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:06 am

The guarantee of Turkey discussed so far is NOT just for the TC component state, but for the WHOLE of Cyprus.

Insisting on the so called psyochological need fulfilled by 650 troops remaining in the north means that 1200 Greek troops will stay in the south. Aside from the obvious objection of foreign troop not being stationed on the soil of a truly independent nation, there are other problems.

Soldiers do not just sit idle. Among the 650 Turks and 1200 Greeks there will be intelligence officers who will collect information about the other side. The information is used to prepare contingency plans in case the other side misbehaves and in short we have plans drawn up and preparations made and we will end up in another round of a proxy conflict between Greece and Turkey unfolding in Cyprus, which we have been through before.

Settlers do not belong in a modern nation. Settlers leave. Any provision for settlers when thousands of Cypriots of the diaspora are written off as not deserving some envouragement to return is BETRAYAL of the very idea of an independent Cyprus. If there are humanitarian grounds for settlers how about humanitarian grounds for Cypriots who were forced to live all their adult lives overseas because of the settlers? What do we diaspora Cypriots get for the deprivation of our country? Fuck the settlers, they have a place to go back to, we diaspora Cypriots have no other country to call our own.
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Postby Oracle » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:09 am

Bananiot wrote:, we invited the Ottomans to take over Cyprus in order to get rid of our oppressors at the time. The church played a leading role in this.


Piratis has provided ample evidence and credible deductions why this comment is so fallacious.

I've recently found some historical information that further backs up the the fact that not only the Cypriots, but all of Europe would not have invited the Ottomans into their territories.

The expansion of the Ottomans was co-incident with the spread of Bubonic Plague.

They were directly responsible for taking it into Russia by waging war with them, when others were already taking steps to minimise its spread.

Epidemiological correlations indicate the disease would not have spread so far and lasted for so long if not for the devastation and continued expansion of the Ottomans.
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Postby Nikitas » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:19 am

For those that like to cite examples of federal nations it is worth remembering that the USA, a federal state par excellence, forbids foreign soldiers from bearing arms on its soil. Even foreign soldiers parading for ceremonies do so UNARMED. This is how independent nations behave. Slaves behave otherwise.
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