Cyprus-Forum.com

[Andros]

Hi all, sorry for my absence lately - was enjoying old age in sunny Cyprus.

In particular, I would like Oracle and Get Real to respond to below:

Equality and Two Constituent States:

(1) Equality: Why are the Turks so bent on Equality in a Cyprus Solution?
By agreeing to complete equality, we, Greek Cypriots - the clear majority ethnic group of Cyprus, will automatically hand over 50% of all Government and constitutional operation(s) to the minority 18% Turkish Cypriots. Please think about what that actually means!

(2) Constituent States: The idea and an accepted agreement of two CONSTITUTENT states in a new Cyprus unification plan ultimately gives the Turkish Cypriots complete partnership of 50% of Cyprus and an EQUAL divide of all CONSTITUTIONAL operations of the Cyprus Constitution.

Now, I am no Constitutional Lawyer, but many of the common villagers in Cyprus, those whom are not at least degree educated or naturally pragmatic, will not understand what it is that will/may be given away if a Confederation type deal is signed as Two Constituent States.

In short, if an agreement based on complete government equality (for the Turkish Cypriot) minority is given, together with their own Constituent State (their equal 50% share of all government operations) - What do you think will happen if the Turks decide to split one day, like Montenegro and Serbia? As I am sure is Turkey's ultimate intention and plan.

Well, REGARDLESS of whether the Turkish Cypriots are NOW given 18% of Land or even 40%, the fact that a UNITED Cyprus Constitution will be based on EQUALITY and Two CONSTITUENT States, will mean that the Turkish Cypriots, if they should choose to one day split like we've seen in many new states of the world today, would be able to legally and Constitutionally demand a 50% Territorial Split of Cyprus, and the dissolution of the original Republic.

UNDERSTAND?

That is why I strongly believe that an Agreed PARTITION of two republic states, with the Turkish Cypriots agreeing to the return of some land, would ULTIMATELY and FAIRLY benefit the future of the island of Cyprus, and not only our Greek Cypriot people and interests.

Please re-read the above before commenting, with perhaps further advice from a Constitutional Lawyer, as that's who had recently briefed me as to WHY TURKEY is so Hungry for a United Cyprus Republic based on Equality and Two Constitutional/Constituent States and not because of its so-called EU membership talks. If you think about it logically, why, and even how could Turkey's EU membership talks be affect by a small island EU member like Cyprus! If it's a Democratic country and passes all of the EU's indicators and chapters (which it is clearly not), how in the world could Cyprus stop them (Turkey) from becoming an member state.

Please do not fall to such trickery and think about what it really is that Turkey is wanting (not 37%, but 50% of the island - and, they are willing to wait, as they have been since 1974).

By agreeing to a mutual split - Turkey would be extremely upset and confused, the Turkish Cypriots could be persuaded to accept in the region of 18-27% of the land of Cyprus (realistically) and the island would be entirely part of the European Union as two Cypriot Republic states, perhaps one as the ROC (us) and one as NROC (TCs) - at least the "Turkishification" of a "Turkish Cypriot Constituent" state would be removed. The Republic of Northern Cyprus, I am sure would be much better suited, don't you?

Kind regards,
Andros.

[Tim Drayton]

Oracle and Get Real are no longer with us!

[Magnus]

I think the idea that the 'TRNC' side is ultimately looking for recognition and their own independence is fairly obvious to most of us, though I am sure that many people consider it 'the cynical view'.

Personally, I feel that the entire BBF plan is just a watered down version of partition and I hate the idea of having the island partitioned in any way. It's about time people got their homes back and all the people of Cyprus (GC and TC) were properly united without external influences.

With regards to Turkey's EU bid, the Cyprus issue is very important. The 'TRNC' is an illegal state with no international recognition (apart from Turkey of course). Therefore, it is clearly considered to be an illegal occupation of the north part of Cyprus.

As the Republic of Cyprus is an EU member, the EU cannot possibly allow Turkey to join as her forces are occupying Cyprus, even if Turkey 'tick all the other boxes' on their EU application form. If you think about it, the EU will look very foolish if one member is able to illegally occupy another.

Whether Turkey really wants EU membership is another matter...


PS: GR and Oracle are away for a short while so you'll have to wait for their responses.

[Andros]

Tim Drayton,

Why? Regardless, I only mentioned them as they are only the ones who lash out about I being a TC and that my comments gear only towards the benefit of the TCs. Well, I am a proud Greek Cypriot and only think of the Long-Term benefit of the island of Cyprus. I hope all Cypriots on this forum understand what it is that my article is truly implying. We are under a serious Turkish threat, but one that can unfortunately only be dealt with in a peaceful and democratic manner. One that can only be dealt with by using other states in conflict as an example for peace. What the former Montenegro/Serbia and Czechoslovakian countries did in their agreed split must be viewed as "Real Life" peaceful processes, as opposed to what we are falsely trying to do with this ridiculous United Federal Cyprus Republic idea. It has too many snags, too many loop-holes and far too many risk-taking consistencies.

I have lived through inter-communal violence, ultra-nationalism and eventual war, and can honestly say that a "Mutual" split of two republic states would benefit all - is that not how the western-world works anyway?

Cheers.

[Andros]

Hi Magnus,

You are right with regards to the so-called "TRNC", which is why I would recommend the NROC. But, you need to read further into Turkey's EU application and so-called Cyprus's "Influence", as it is not entirely the fact. The island of Cyprus is a disputed island, one that the EU has so many times over said that it "Regretted" allowing them in. We are also not complete! The Cease-fire line, as each day goes by is becoming more of an "External" EU border. The EU are also now vowing to break-down the so-called isolation of the Turkish Cypriot! Is it not true that the "Isolation of the Turkish Cypriots" is also the isolation of the so-called "TRNC".

There are many unfortunate conflicting matters concerning what you have logically and rightly said, but this is the real world. If what you rightly said was taken up realistically by the internationally community, then why has the so-called TRNC been allowed to continue and even prosper? Why has HSBC been allowed to operate there, Honda, Vodaphone etc, and etc.

The realistic threat of a recognised TRNC may just smack us in the middle of the teeth in the near future is we do not face up to certain realities. We either take a step back to move two steps forward, or will suddenly wake up to a 37% TURKISH Cypriot Republic recognised state.

Cheers matey.

[Viewpoint]

Hi Magnus,

You are right with regards to the so-called "TRNC", which is why I would recommend the NROC. But, you need to read further into Turkey's EU application and so-called Cyprus's "Influence", as it is not entirely the fact. The island of Cyprus is a disputed island, one that the EU has so many times over said that it "Regretted" allowing them in. We are also not complete! The Cease-fire line, as each day goes by is becoming more of an "External" EU border. The EU are also now vowing to break-down the so-called isolation of the Turkish Cypriot! Is it not true that the "Isolation of the Turkish Cypriots" is also the isolation of the so-called "TRNC".

There are many unfortunate conflicting matters concerning what you have logically and rightly said, but this is the real world. If what you rightly said was taken up realistically by the internationally community, then why has the so-called TRNC been allowed to continue and even prosper? Why has HSBC been allowed to operate there, Honda, Vodaphone etc, and etc.

The realistic threat of a recognised TRNC may just smack us in the middle of the teeth in the near future is we do not face up to certain realities. We either take a step back to move two steps forward, or will suddenly wake up to a 37% TURKISH Cypriot Republic recognised state.

Cheers matey.

Andros I would feel privilidged to shake your hand, you have more vision and courage than most on this platform but you are putting your self in front of a GC firing squad who will start to fire full guns at you real soon good luck.

[Magnus]

I wonder how much the EU members actually believe this 'isolation' that the 'TRNC' claim. After all, people from that side are allowed free movement into the RoC and President Christofias is making all the right noises in terms of giving some concessions (e.g. withdrawing opposition to financial aid from the EU).

Also, the whole 'we're so terrified of the GCs so we need 40,000 Turks to protect us' excuse must be wearing a bit thin by now and I'm sure the international community is not so stupid that they don't see Talat is a puppet.

We can't discount the years that have gone into building relationships with other countries and the efforts of President Christofias, who is doing a good job of re-affirming ties with Cyprus' European partners while Mr Talat just spits his dummy and throws his toys out the pram. As far as I know, the majority of countries are saying that they would support a solution based on some sort of re-unification. I haven't seen anything that even mentions support for partition (though I'm not as well-read on this as some people on the forum).

Ultimately it's in the hands of the leaders so we just have to trust them and see what happens

[Nikitas]

Precisely because the Turkish side has shown a cynical approach, the territorial arrangement is the most important issue. Unfortunately the Grek side, both GC and Greece, seem to rank it well after some other issues.

Regardless of the type of settlement, Turkey will push the TCs (if there are any left by then) for independence in ten years time, if not for a take over of the whole island.

[Viewpoint]

Precisely because the Turkish side has shown a cynical approach, the territorial arrangement is the most important issue. Unfortunately the Grek side, both GC and Greece, seem to rank it well after some other issues.

Regardless of the type of settlement, Turkey will push the TCs (if there are any left by then) for independence in ten years time, if not for a take over of the whole island.

Take over of the whole island as you put it will never happen so you havenothing to fear on that score, what you shoudl concentrate on is honesty and inclusion of the TC community in the running of a united Cyprus, taking measure that illustrate clearly that a united Cyprus is more beneficial for all Cypriots than the current divide.

[Murataga]

Precisely because the Turkish side has shown a cynical approach, the territorial arrangement is the most important issue. Unfortunately the Grek side, both GC and Greece, seem to rank it well after some other issues.

Regardless of the type of settlement, Turkey will push the TCs (if there are any left by then) for independence in ten years time, if not for a take over of the whole island.

Turkey did NOT push us for anything. To the contrary it was us the TCs that sent almost hundreds of envoys (of politicians, diplomats, leaders, teachers, students etc.) to Turkey for years, practically begging, for their intervention and assistance in our efforts. At the time of our conflicts (late 50s - throughout 60s) Turkey was drenched in her own problems (interneally and externally) with little incentive to open a new front in Cyprus. When the hell will you understand it is not Turkey, it is us the TCs that you have a problem with. Had we the TCs not wanted Turkey and/or had we not have issues with you, there would not be a single batallion of the Turkish Army on this island.