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Vatican empire or ottoman empire >>poll<&

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Which one you prefer ?

Ottoman Empire
9
32%
Vatican Empire EU
9
32%
CYPRUS own rules own system own taxes own imigration rules
10
36%
 
Total votes : 28

Postby Magnus » Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:39 pm

denizaksulu wrote:
Magnus wrote:
GAVCARoCOM wrote:On the other hand, the Catholic Church of the Crusader and Venetian rulers were expelled. Its building were confiscated and converted into mosques, or were sold to the Orthodox Church. They also made being Catholic a punishable offence, so Catholics had to choose between conversion to Orthodox Christianity, to Islam, or exile.


Ever heard of 'freedom of worship'? All this proves is that the Ottoman Empire was just as inclined towards religious persecution as the previous regime.



Magnus, perhaps you can explain the survival and prolifsration and further enrichment of the Greek Orthodox church in Cyprus. A true miracle I would say. :roll:


I am sure an individual of your intelligence knows full well that in times past what was written as 'law' and what was reality were two different things.

While I do not dispute that the Ottoman Empire was 'officially' more progressive than certain other regimes, I would argue that a number of the rights and privileges afforded to Orthodoxism by law were actually more dependant on the whim and mercy of their Ottoman masters.

In reality, Christians were viewed as little more than second-class citizens, and the corruption and brutality of the Ottomans (like many other Empires) can hardly be disputed. Pogroms of 'infidel' Christians during the centuries of Ottoman rule are well-documented and you don't need me to point them out to you.

Our friend Gavcar and his source have also neglected to mention the fact that the Orthodox Church was not allowed to 'bear witness to Christ' whereas conversion to Islam was of course entirely permissible. This is hardly the freedom of worship professed by Gavcar's source, particularly if we add to that the fact that converts to Islam who returned to Orthodoxism were put to death.

Gavcar's source also neglects to mention that despite the fact that certain existing churches were given to the Christians (and others turned into mosques) the Ottoman Empire did not allow the construction of any NEW church buildings and even the ringing of church bells was not allowed. Again, hardly an example of religious tolerance and freedom.

How did the Orthodox Church on Cyprus (or anywhere else) survive? In the same way that Greek culture survived. Determination, faith and perhaps, as you say, a true miracle :)
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Postby Magnus » Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:47 pm

GAVCARoCOM wrote:If you didnt want to pay taxes to Ottoman Empire then how come you want to pay taxes tp Vatican Empire ?????

you didnt answer the most important part of the question . the orange coloured one ??


Sorry for missing this. The way I see it, everyone pays tax to their country, regardless of whether they are in the EU or not. It's the price we pay for public services.

As far as I know (and I am no tax expert) we don't pay any specific taxes just for being EU members. However, even if we did then that is the price we would pay for being part of the EU and the benefits it affords us.

Please don't take this as disrespectful, but I think on the whole I would rather pay to be part of the EU than part of the Ottoman Empire (if it still existed) as the EU offers far more to it's citizens.
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Postby denizaksulu » Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:56 pm

Magnus wrote:
denizaksulu wrote:
Magnus wrote:
GAVCARoCOM wrote:On the other hand, the Catholic Church of the Crusader and Venetian rulers were expelled. Its building were confiscated and converted into mosques, or were sold to the Orthodox Church. They also made being Catholic a punishable offence, so Catholics had to choose between conversion to Orthodox Christianity, to Islam, or exile.


Ever heard of 'freedom of worship'? All this proves is that the Ottoman Empire was just as inclined towards religious persecution as the previous regime.



Magnus, perhaps you can explain the survival and prolifsration and further enrichment of the Greek Orthodox church in Cyprus. A true miracle I would say. :roll:


I am sure an individual of your intelligence knows full well that in times past what was written as 'law' and what was reality were two different things.

While I do not dispute that the Ottoman Empire was 'officially' more progressive than certain other regimes, I would argue that a number of the rights and privileges afforded to Orthodoxism by law were actually more dependant on the whim and mercy of their Ottoman masters.

In reality, Christians were viewed as little more than second-class citizens, and the corruption and brutality of the Ottomans (like many other Empires) can hardly be disputed. Pogroms of 'infidel' Christians during the centuries of Ottoman rule are well-documented and you don't need me to point them out to you.

Our friend Gavcar and his source have also neglected to mention the fact that the Orthodox Church was not allowed to 'bear witness to Christ' whereas conversion to Islam was of course entirely permissible. This is hardly the freedom of worship professed by Gavcar's source, particularly if we add to that the fact that converts to Islam who returned to Orthodoxism were put to death.

Gavcar's source also neglects to mention that despite the fact that certain existing churches were given to the Christians (and others turned into mosques) the Ottoman Empire did not allow the construction of any NEW church buildings and even the ringing of church bells was not allowed. Again, hardly an example of religious tolerance and freedom.

How did the Orthodox Church on Cyprus (or anywhere else) survive? In the same way that Greek culture survived. Determination, faith and perhaps, as you say, a true miracle :)



You embarrass me Magnus. In only two posts to Magnus, yet you talk of my intelligence? Perhaps we are familiar with each other more than two posts worth.

Your response is well written with chosen words. Most authorities will admit to the fact that the Ottomans had shown favour to the prefered Orthodox subjects over any other christian sect. Corruption is always rife in places distant from the centre of power, however that is no excuse. The moslems also have suffered from corruption. In the 16th and 17th centuries the Ottomans were hardly worse that the Catholic Empires. Their religious tolerance was far better. All I will say, but you will never admit is that you are there because of the grace of the Ottomans. You do not believe in God, so cut out the miracle bit. :lol:

Also bear a thought that not to far in the past the actions of the Greeks against their fellow Greeks.

Regards :lol: :lol: Good to know you are around :wink:
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Postby bill cobbett » Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:58 pm

Magnus wrote:
denizaksulu wrote:
Magnus wrote:
GAVCARoCOM wrote:On the other hand, the Catholic Church of the Crusader and Venetian rulers were expelled. Its building were confiscated and converted into mosques, or were sold to the Orthodox Church. They also made being Catholic a punishable offence, so Catholics had to choose between conversion to Orthodox Christianity, to Islam, or exile.


Ever heard of 'freedom of worship'? All this proves is that the Ottoman Empire was just as inclined towards religious persecution as the previous regime.



Magnus, perhaps you can explain the survival and prolifsration and further enrichment of the Greek Orthodox church in Cyprus. A true miracle I would say. :roll:


I am sure an individual of your intelligence knows full well that in times past what was written as 'law' and what was reality were two different things.

While I do not dispute that the Ottoman Empire was 'officially' more progressive than certain other regimes, I would argue that a number of the rights and privileges afforded to Orthodoxism by law were actually more dependant on the whim and mercy of their Ottoman masters.

In reality, Christians were viewed as little more than second-class citizens, and the corruption and brutality of the Ottomans (like many other Empires) can hardly be disputed. Pogroms of 'infidel' Christians during the centuries of Ottoman rule are well-documented and you don't need me to point them out to you.

Our friend Gavcar and his source have also neglected to mention the fact that the Orthodox Church was not allowed to 'bear witness to Christ' whereas conversion to Islam was of course entirely permissible. This is hardly the freedom of worship professed by Gavcar's source, particularly if we add to that the fact that converts to Islam who returned to Orthodoxism were put to death.

Gavcar's source also neglects to mention that despite the fact that certain existing churches were given to the Christians (and others turned into mosques) the Ottoman Empire did not allow the construction of any NEW church buildings and even the ringing of church bells was not allowed. Again, hardly an example of religious tolerance and freedom.

How did the Orthodox Church on Cyprus (or anywhere else) survive? In the same way that Greek culture survived. Determination, faith and perhaps, as you say, a true miracle :)


Magnus ! = :shock:
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Postby Magnus » Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:27 pm

denizaksulu wrote:
You embarrass me Magnus. In only two posts to Magnus, yet you talk of my intelligence? Perhaps we are familiar with each other more than two posts worth.



I don't claim to be as knowledgeable about certain issues as others on the forum so I take the time to read everyone's posts fully. I think I can tell the ones who take similar steps and consider what they put into words rather than spout whatever comes into their heads at the time. :lol:

No, we haven't had many other exchanges, though you did accuse me of being Get Real! in disguise yesterday. Maybe you are missing him? :lol:

denizaksulu wrote:
Your response is well written with chosen words. Most authorities will admit to the fact that the Ottomans had shown favour to the prefered Orthodox subjects over any other christian sect. Corruption is always rife in places distant from the centre of power, however that is no excuse. The moslems also have suffered from corruption. In the 16th and 17th centuries the Ottomans were hardly worse that the Catholic Empires. Their religious tolerance was far better.


It's a sad fact that human history is littered with persecution, often in the name of God. I don't deny that the Moslems of this world have suffered as much as Christians. What saddens me most is that we 'modern' individuals are hardly doing a better job of behaving ourselves than our ancestors.

denizaksulu wrote: All I will say, but you will never admit is that you are there because of the grace of the Ottomans.


You're right, I won't but that's OK because you don't expect me to. I'll just say that I/we are here by the grace of God instead :D

denizaksulu wrote:
You do not believe in God, so cut out the miracle bit. :lol:


Actually I do, but I don't mind if you don't :lol:
Last edited by Magnus on Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Magnus » Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:27 pm

bill cobbett wrote:
Magnus ! = :shock:


What? :lol: :lol:
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Postby bill cobbett » Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:33 pm

Magnus wrote:
bill cobbett wrote:
Magnus ! = :shock:


What? :lol: :lol:


:wink: :lol:
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Postby GAVCARoCOM » Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:42 pm

When the EU process will complete then we will pay the taxes for EU . Already we are paying in UK . The taxes you paing and you cant see today is mortgage , credit card and loan payment interests. all the biggest banks owned mainly by jewish people. But in muslim releigion and in ottoman empire interest is illegal. You can see smilar muslim ruled countries today which is not tax at all and no interest when you borrow money . we need better than EU . ottoman empire might not exist anymore but we have to use different sydtem in cyprus and we should go out from EU because we dont want to be ruled with their rules.

we need to open our eyes !!! usa and EU will collapse .

see the country is running with muslim rules.
ok may be we can call somethingelse but EU is not good for us. tax interests are just making us slaves .

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=5TjeyzsUmTs&amp;feature=related[/youtube]
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Postby GAVCARoCOM » Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:58 pm

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=MrjFz4bHMug&amp;feature=related[/youtube]


What EU will give us ????
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Postby denizaksulu » Sun Jun 29, 2008 12:37 am

For Magnus. From European sources including Greek. Makes interesting reading. References at botom of page.



Doros writes that during the first feudal era under the Lusignans, and then under the
Venetians: “It appears that the Barons were only denied the ‘legal’ right to wound arbitrarily
their serf and slaves, or impose the death penalty upon them. But they could and they
did treat them as chattels; they could punish them, sell them or exchange them for animals,
falcons, dogs or horses (this, however, was abolished by Venice in 1493 which decreed
that a slave could only be exchanged for another human salve) and work them to
exhaustion.”120 The famed wealth of the Latin epoch brought little solace to the common
inhabitants of the island. As Braudel puts it: “The wealth of the island under Venetian rule
had been the vineyards, the cotton plantations, & the fields of sugarcane. But whose
wealth? It had belonged to a Venetian & Genoese aristocracy … certainly not to the natives
of the island, Orthodox Greeks.”121 As Kyprianos, the Archimandrite of the Orthodox
Church of Cyprus was to grant several centuries later, under the Venetians the Orthodox
peasants were, “slaves of the chiefs and upper classes.” In his words, they, therefore,
“never ceased to help the Turks, for they hoped under their yoke to find freedom and
rest.”122 Braudel concurs, stating that, “at the time of invasion, the Venetians were abandoned
by the Greeks both in the countryside and the towns.”123 Michel also declares that,
“At the time of the Ottoman invasion, hatred of Venetian rule led many of the Cypriots to
sympathise with, and even perhaps aid the invaders as deliverers, the prospect of Turkish
rule appearing preferable to that of the rival Christian power.”124 Thus, though the Greek
Orthodox Cypriots may not have gained their freedom in the contemporary sense of the
word, with Ottoman rule an end was brought to the practice of serfdom under which a
great proportion of the peasants had hitherto been bound.125 Further, the Orthodox
Church, from its earliest days a central institution in the life of the native populace, was to
be restored to the position of prominence and power that had been wrested from it by the
Latins.126 It was a fact that many years later, notwithstanding the arrival of the age of
nationalism, some Greek Cypriots were still willing to recognise.
Though revisionism was by then rapidly entering the Greek Cypriot appraisal of Cyprus’
Ottoman past, Legislative Councillor Kyriakides was at the beginning of the twentieth
century, to the delight of his Turkish colleagues, to have openly declared:
120. DOROS 1955, 160.
121. BRAUDEL 1995, 156; Doros also emphasises this reality alluded to by Braudel concerning the Latin rule
of the Lusignans that preceded the Venetian era, arguing that too many historians of the Latin period of rule
in Cyprus, “have be[e]n so engrossed in its surface ebullitions and so dazzled by its glitter … that they have
failed to see the realities of the situation.” The “brilliance” of the era that these historians describe, Doros
says, “in such arresting superlatives, is the civilisation of a transplanted ruling class maintained by tribute –
a brilliant, colourful, unstable and sterile civilisation which disappeared, leaving nothing behind it except a
few, albeit imposing, monuments, and a number of words which have found their way into the Greek Cypriot
vocabulary.” DOROS 1955, 155–156.
122. PURCELL 1969, 345.
123. BRAUDEL 1995, 156.
124. MICHEL 1908, 753.
125. According to Jenness, about 85 percent of the population under the Venetians, “were either serfs (parici) or
free peasants (francomati), the latter being half as numerous again as the serfs.” [JENNESS 1962, 44].
Doros, on the other hand, suggests that the majority were, in fact serfs, at least until towards the end of
Venetian rule. DOROS 1955, 226.
126. For a short exposition on the position of the Orthodox Church during this era, see DOROS 1955, 178–185.
49
[T]he Greek population has nothing against the Moslems of Cyprus and the Turkish Empire
and that from a historical point of view Cyprus and Greece are grateful to the Turkish
Empire. When Franks and Catholicism threatened to strangle the Greek nation by twisting
round its neck like a snake, Providence has sent the Turks who have saved us. … without
the Turks the Greek nation would have been swallowed by the Franks and Catholicism.127
Four years later he again warmed the hearts of the Turks when during another debate
he stated that:
[B]ut for the appearance of the Turks in the East, Greece and the Greek religion would have
disappeared and had they come to Cyprus but fifty years later, the Honourable member
himself would not have been a Greek and the Greek Church in Cyprus would not have been
in the honoured position which it now held.128
If


Regards
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