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[Magnus]

They saw a threat to their symbol of Turkishness and reacted with agression to protect it.

So your 'symbol of Turkishness' is worth more than a man's life? Come on man, it's a piece of cloth not someone's virgin daughter. The worst he could have done is taken it down and ripped it up. So what? It's not like that would have meant the end for your 'TRNC'.

And you feel it is totally acceptable for 'ministers' to be shooting at people and taking pictures like it's a bunch of guys out hunting?

This is nothing short of barbarism and you know it.

For the record I have stated that the people who carried out this act should be held accountable but you have to understand that what he did was wrong, he threw himself into a mine field and hit a mine. Is the person to blame who mines their with plenty of warning signs to blame or the mentally derranged individual who ignored every warning sign and ran into the mind field smoking a cigarette? Hoping at worst he would be arrested, very stupid and foolish thing to do if you ask me.

Mines are inanimate objects. You step on them, they blow up. Simple.

A soldier with a gun is a human being. For a soldier to fire, he needs to hear an order from his commander and then consciously choose to follow that order and pull the trigger. The commander could have kept his mouth shut. The 'ministers' could have intervened. The soldiers could have refused to fire.

That's the difference. Mines kill because that's what they are made to do. People kill because they choose to.

[humanist]

magnus

That's the difference. Mines kill because that's what they are made to do. People kill because they choose to.

indeed that is the truth, aren't ya an evolved soul?

[Viewpoint]

They saw a threat to their symbol of Turkishness and reacted with agression to protect it.

So your 'symbol of Turkishness' is worth more than a man's life? Come on man, it's a piece of cloth not someone's virgin daughter. The worst he could have done is taken it down and ripped it up. So what? It's not like that would have meant the end for your 'TRNC'.

And you feel it is totally acceptable for 'ministers' to be shooting at people and taking pictures like it's a bunch of guys out hunting?

This is nothing short of barbarism and you know it.

For the record I have stated that the people who carried out this act should be held accountable but you have to understand that what he did was wrong, he threw himself into a mine field and hit a mine. Is the person to blame who mines their with plenty of warning signs to blame or the mentally derranged individual who ignored every warning sign and ran into the mind field smoking a cigarette? Hoping at worst he would be arrested, very stupid and foolish thing to do if you ask me.

Mines are inanimate objects. You step on them, they blow up. Simple.

A soldier with a gun is a human being. For a soldier to fire, he needs to hear an order from his commander and then consciously choose to follow that order and pull the trigger. The commander could have kept his mouth shut. The 'ministers' could have intervened. The soldiers could have refused to fire.

That's the difference. Mines kill because that's what they are made to do. People kill because they choose to.

The end result is the same, he choose to go into area where he could get killed, its a buffer zone for fucks sake, he played the hero and ended up a martyr.

[nevermind]

I am new to this forum. I really dont like to write in forums cause I like the live consversation but I really need to comment your logic, Viewpoint. It reminds me the comments from some losers when a rape is committed. "What the hell was she doing wearing a mini-skirt in a dark street in the middle of the night. She got what she deserved!!!". I am a Greek Cypriot and I `m for reunification and living with TC's, but I really don`t want to live next to you! By your logic, if my son throws his football, on purpose, in your back yard and knows that his entering a crazy man's house you are justified to kill him because he stained the sacred concept of Home!!! Its a fucking MURDER period. There are no buts. As I (and every saned human being, I guess) would condemn a MURDER of a TC, a GC or any other Human Being without any excuse, I except the same from everybody. But I guess I should start climbing down from the fairyworld I live and enter the world of reality where people like Viewpoint or any Viewpoint whatsoever dwell...
Ciaya (plural of ciao)

nevermind would you allow your mother to walk into a mine field or woudl you tell them to avoid it? if she ignores you and goes ahead anyway what do you do if one of the mines goes off.

Yes you are right because ,as everyone knows, a mine is the same thing with a human with free will who chooses to MURDER a human being. Ok... Whatever... If you and the other members of the genius bunch which goes by the name "Life is nothing in comparison with a glorious piece of cloth" don't realise that whatever you say, you are not convincing us for the rightness of your logic, then I rest my case and I say you are ,the least, a bunch of fascists.

Its a mtter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time doing the wrong thing.

You sooo nailed me there... You are so right , once more! It's all clear now. Its a matter of bad luck. What are the chances to get in front of the path of five bullets while you are climbing a flagpole or get lynched by a brainwashed mob. They were both so unlucky. I don't know why are we arguing for 23 pages for something that is clearly a matter of bad karma.

[Magnus]

The end result is the same, he choose to go in area where he could get killed, its a buffer zone for fucks sake, he played the hero and ended up a martyr.

The point is the end result didn't have to be the same.

Mines kill indescriminately. Humans don't have to. You must realise that there were other options, other ways to control the situation.

If they had tear gas they could have thrown a few cans into the crowd and that would have stopped it. There was no need to kill anyone.

[repulsewarrior]

this man entered the TRNC illegally, he was acting in a provocative manner, knew his life was in danger if he crossed into the TRNC. Since he knew what he was doing (ie he was sound of mind) and he knew the risks he deserves what he got. PS it was Tansu Ciller that said anyone laying a hand on the Turkish flag will have their hands cut off and it still stands.

Big Al, lets see if you believe in what you are saying above, or are you just shooting your mouth off just to be a tough guy and a Cowboy.??

August 8th, 1964 Turkish fighter jets were on a mission over Cyprus and one of them got shot down and the pilot bailed out. The pilot's name was Capt. Cengiz TOPEL. Perhaps you have heard of him. In any case, he was captured by the "Greeks" and according to UNFICY after the fact, it was determined that the pilot was tortured and burned to death alive in the most brutal way possible. So, now tell me Big Al, did Capt. Cengiz TOPEL deserved what he got.?? After all, using you arguments, he was flying on a mission over Cyprus, therefore he was doing an illegal act. He may have even carried out bombings on those "Greeks" on the ground with conventional weapons or Napalm, therefore he was in a position to be a threat and may even have killed some "Greeks" on the ground, so my question to you is, was this despicable act of burning him alive was justified and that he had gotten what he deserved.

So come on Big Al, tell us the truth if you dare. Lets see if your BALLS are any bigger than VP's, because you both talk the way you do, because "Greeks" were murdered by the "Turks" in 1996 with the brutal beating and execution on the flag pole, but lets see if you will talk the same way then a "Turk" is murdered in Cold Blood by the "Greeks".

So Big Al, tell me honestly. Did Capt. Topel got what he deserved, and if you say NO, then you are the biggest Big mouth hypocrite there is, and if have the BALLS to you say YES, then I want you to send some flowers to his memorial in Cyprus with a note telling him, that he got what he deserved when he was murdered by the "Greeks" in Cold Blood. Don't forget to leave your name and of your relatives who live in Cyprus on the note sent with the flowers to Capt. Topels memorial.

I may be the first person to have written about Capt. Topel's story 2 years ago here on the forum. If you want to read it, it is here.

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus6004-10.html

If i may correct you Kikapu, speaking to Big Al,

...if you say No he did not deserve to die that way, you are a bigger man,
if you can say, "i see"; i am sorry.

...if you say Yes, of course the Dr. is correct. send flowers with your apology; and spit on them.

Ataturk was not these men.
For the lives they took in shame, he may have taken theirs,
as a Turk, his Justice was swift, but as a Man he did not suffer Ignorance.

[Tim Drayton]

[quote="Kifeas] ... the Kemalist fascist patrons of the Turkish nation ...[/quote]

I realise that the word "fascist" has become so debased that it is simply used to describe any ideology that one is opposed to, but I find it puzzling to see the word "fascist" used to characterise a movement such as Kemalism that includes among its achievements:

- Abolition of the Sultanate and Caliphate
- Abolition of absolute rule and its replacement with an elected parliament
- Abolition of reactionary Sharia law and its replacement with a modern, codified system of law and a written constition, and modern judicial processes
- Introduction of formal equality of the sexes before the law
- Introduction of compulsory primary education for all boys and girls

The period from the founding of the Turkish Republic in 1923 until the outset of the second World War was marked by a great many progressive changes in Turkey, even if the political order in the country at the time was dictatorial in nature.

[Kifeas]

... the Kemalist fascist patrons of the Turkish nation ...

I realise that the word "fascist" has become so debased that it is simply used to describe any ideology that one is opposed to, but I find it puzzling to see the word "fascist" used to characterise a movement such as Kemalism that includes among its achievements:

- Abolition of the Sultanate and Caliphate
- Abolition of absolute rule and its replacement with an elected parliament
- Abolition of reactionary Sharia law and its replacement with a modern, codified system of law and a written constition, and modern judicial processes
- Introduction of formal equality of the sexes before the law
- Introduction of compulsory primary education for all boys and girls

The period from the founding of the Turkish Republic in 1923 until the outset of the second World War was marked by a great many progressive changes in Turkey, even if the political order in the country at the time was dictatorial in nature.

Well, dear Tim, lets see what fascism is all about in the first place, and here is a very good article describing it in all its details.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/ ... t_23_2.htm

Having red the above article, lets see how many of the 14 basic characteristics, and to what extent, Turkey -under the dictating guidance of the Kemalist ideology and the self-appointed ruling elites to enforce and maintain it, does fulfill in practice.

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism. (101% Fulfillment)

2. Disdain for the importance of human rights. (100% Fulfillment)

3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. (101% Fulfillment)

4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism. (101% Fulfillment)

5. Rampant sexism. (99% Fulfillment)

6. A controlled mass media. (99% Fulfillment.)

7. Obsession with national security. (101% Fulfillment)

8. Religion and ruling elite tied together. (In the sense that Kemal Ataturk is celebrated by the ruling elites as near God and the Kemalist ideology is observed as a near religion, 100% fulfillment.)

9. Power of corporations protected. (99% Fulfillment.)

10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated. (101% Fulfillment.)

11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts. (99% Fulfillment.)

12. Obsession with crime and punishment. (Not able to tell!)

13. Rampant cronyism and corruption. (100% Fulfillment.)

14. Fraudulent elections. (In the sense that there is a 10% limit to enter the parliament for any party, mainly targeting in this way the possibility of a Kurdish party and leftist groups entering the parliament, 99% Fulfillment.)

As one can see from the article, Turkey, under the shadow of its Kemalist ideology, fulfills nearly all of the basic characteristics of a fascist state /regime, to a very high degree.


PS: Tim, I didn't speak about Ataturk and his whatever positive (or negative) reforms. I only spoke about the perverted ideology bearing his name (kemalism) and the outcome of it on the way the country is directed and controlled, politically, socially and culturally.

[Tim Drayton]

... the Kemalist fascist patrons of the Turkish nation ...

I realise that the word "fascist" has become so debased that it is simply used to describe any ideology that one is opposed to, but I find it puzzling to see the word "fascist" used to characterise a movement such as Kemalism that includes among its achievements:

- Abolition of the Sultanate and Caliphate
- Abolition of absolute rule and its replacement with an elected parliament
- Abolition of reactionary Sharia law and its replacement with a modern, codified system of law and a written constition, and modern judicial processes
- Introduction of formal equality of the sexes before the law
- Introduction of compulsory primary education for all boys and girls

The period from the founding of the Turkish Republic in 1923 until the outset of the second World War was marked by a great many progressive changes in Turkey, even if the political order in the country at the time was dictatorial in nature.

Well, dear Tim, lets see what fascism is all about in the first place, and here is a very good article describing it in all its details.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/ ... t_23_2.htm

Having red the above article, lets see how many of the 14 basic characteristics, and to what extent, Turkey -under the dictating guidance of the Kemalist ideology and the self-appointed ruling elites to enforce and maintain it, does fulfill in practice.

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism. (101% Fulfillment)

2. Disdain for the importance of human rights. (100% Fulfillment)

3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. (101% Fulfillment)

4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism. (101% Fulfillment)

5. Rampant sexism. (99% Fulfillment)

6. A controlled mass media. (99% Fulfillment.)

7. Obsession with national security. (101% Fulfillment)

8. Religion and ruling elite tied together. (In the sense that Kemal Ataturk is celebrated by the ruling elites as near God and the Kemalist ideology is observed as a near religion, 100% fulfillment.)

9. Power of corporations protected. (99% Fulfillment.)

10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated. (101% Fulfillment.)

11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts. (99% Fulfillment.)

12. Obsession with crime and punishment. (Not able to tell!)

13. Rampant cronyism and corruption. (100% Fulfillment.)

14. Fraudulent elections. (In the sense that the 10% limit to enter the parliament for any party, targeting in this way mainly the possibility of a Kurdish party to enter parliament, 99% Fulfillment.)

As one can see from the article, Turkey, under the shadow of its Kemalist ideology, fulfills nearly all of the basic characteristics of a fascist state /regime, to a very high degree.


PS: Tim, I didn't speak about Ataturk and his whatever positive (or negative) reforms. I only spoke about the perverted ideology bearing his name (kemalism) and the outcome of it on the way the country is directed and controlled, politically, socially and culturally.

Anybody can copy a checklist from somewhere then add "100% fulfilment" in brackets after each one. Where are your agrguments? Why do you conclude that there is 100% fulfilment?

[Kifeas]

Well Tim, bring me an argument contrary to my assessment on any one of the characteristics, and let's discuss it after I come back from the beach, later tonight!