Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz]

http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.ph ... 8&cat_id=1

One political analyst agreed. He said the idea is that the Annan plan must be in line with the acquis. “But the EU looked through the Annan plan and gave it a clean bill of health,” said the analyst.

“This is all for internal consumption. “I think what is happening is an insult to what Europe really stands for and all the founding principles of the EU – reconciliation, toleration and integration,” he added.

The analyst said the Greek Cypriot side appeared to be having a problem over power-sharing with the Turkish Cypriot minority. But at the same time, he said Cyprus, which represents 0.2 per cent of the EU’s population, expects to have an equal say with European giants such as Britain, Germany and France. “The ploy for a European solution is just a fig leaf for a unitary state,” the analyst said.

Generaly an interesting article but my main reason for posting it is to show (however worng or right the argument is) that I am not alone in seeing some inconsistency between the RoC attitude to power sharing within Cyprus vs within the EU and questiong if the commitment of GC is less to 'democracy' in general and in principal and more to their own agenda specificaly.

[Viewpoint]

erolz, the Eu is not an easy push over like us, they see right through the GC administration and their true intentions which is clearly voiced in your post. The wheels have started to turn in the EU slowly at first but in time and with GC arrogance and negative stance, they will get whats due.

[Kifeas]

Generaly an interesting article but my main reason for posting it is to show (however worng or right the argument is) that I am not alone in seeing some inconsistency between the RoC attitude to power sharing within Cyprus vs within the EU and questiong if the commitment of GC is less to 'democracy' in general and in principal and more to their own agenda specificaly.

Erol,
I agree it can be used as an argument.

However there are two issues here that need to be looked at.

The first is that the E.U. is not a state or even a federation but rather a political and economic union of sovereign states (nations) that hopes to evolve into a confederation in the future.

The second and most important is that irrespective of what the E.U. is, it is composed by many states (units) instead of only two, as in the case of Cyprus. Furthermore the size of the two “units” in Cyprus is considerably uneven. Belgium for example is a federation of two equal states (not communities) but the ratio between them is about 45:55, instead of 18:82. Switzerland on the other hand is a federation of many politically equal cantons (again not ethnic groups,) within four main areas (German speaking, French, Italian and Roman speaking.) United states is again a federation of 52 states (again not ethnic groups,), which share political equality in some aspects but in others like the election of the president, they share a weighted proportional equality.

In all the above cases, the issue of ethnic division (ethnic communities) as a method of administrating political power is out of the question.

In other words, there are two essential particularities in Cyprus.
One is the uneven size of the two communities that makes the issue of political equality an “unfair” arrangement for the largest side. The other is the method that defines the two sides, which is the “ethnic” or “race” factor, instead of the component state factor. A notion that lies completely outside any E.U. norm and principle.

[erolz]

In all the above cases, the issue of ethnic division (ethnic communities) as a method of administrating political power is out of the question.

In other words, there are two essential particularities in Cyprus.
One is the uneven size of the two communities that makes the issue of political equality an “unfair” arrangement for the largest side. The other is the method that defines the two sides, which is the “ethnic” or “race” factor, instead of the component state factor. A notion that lies completely outside any E.U. norm and principle.

Nation states are based on 'ethnic' and 'race' lines. When nations form unions there is a concept of 'equality of nations' that reflects the concerns of smaller nations to not be dominated by larger nations in such unions. For me this is the same _concept_ for a union of two ethnic communites in Cyprus. The ethnic basis of the groups is similar and the concern of smaller groups re being dominated by larger is similar. I have no problem with our rights being vested in our component state and that this state does not have to be ethnicly pure - just assured that it will always be made up more of TC than others (agai the same as any nation. The UK is as multicultural as any state comes but if there was any chance of native UK citizens being outnumbered by non natives they too would take action). So for me the only essential difference in _concept_ is a union of 2 and a union of more than 2. I see no logic why this makes a determing difference. What I find hard to swallow is this GC insistance that _conceptualy_ any politcal represtation disproportionate to precise population numbers is undemocratic (within Cyprus) yet not undemocratic outside it, or the concpet that an 'ethinic' component in componet states is 'racist' but in nation sates is not conceptualy 'racist'. These to me seem arguments of convience and not of logic or princiapl. Apparently I am not entierly alone in this feeling.

[metecyp]

What I find hard to swallow is this GC insistance that _conceptualy_ any politcal represtation disproportionate to precise population numbers is undemocratic (within Cyprus) yet not undemocratic outside it, or the concpet that an 'ethinic' component in componet states is 'racist' but in nation sates is not conceptualy 'racist'. These to me seem arguments of convience and not of logic or princiapl. Apparently I am not entierly alone in this feeling.

I feel the exact same way. It doesn't matter if the EU is not a federation. We're not talking about a direct comprasion between Cyprus and the EU or Cyprus and the US but rather a universal principle that applies to the EU, the US and also Cyprus. The principle is clear: If there's a situation where there are seperate components (call this a community, a constitutent state, a state, etc.) of different sizes (call this area size, population size, etc.) and if these components want to be under one roof (call this federation, union, etc.) and if there's a fear that the smaller components can be dominated by the larger ones (politically, economically, socially, etc.), there's always a mechanism which favors the smaller state. This is not considered racist or unfair but rather a necessary safeguard to ensure well-being of all components.

[Piratis]

Do you like what they have in EU? I accept to have the system of any EU country. do you?

No, you don't. Because you don't want the system of a country, you want a system that associates independent countries (which is what EU is).

You don't want GCs and TCs to live together in a country. You want them to live together in an association of two separate countries.

[erolz]

No, you don't. Because you don't want the system of a country, you want a system that associates independent countries (which is what EU is).

You totaly miss the point (intentionaly or not) yet again. The point is not that a nation is the same as a union of nations. The point is the principals of 'democratic represntation' do not suddenly change in one instance to the other.

You don't want GCs and TCs to live together in a country. You want them to live together in an association of two separate countries.

I want to live in a country where GC view the TC community with respect and understanding, where they accept our concerns for being dominated politicaly and why we have those fears. Where they do not consider it a natural or democratic right for GC to be able to politicaly dictate to the TC community what will happen to all of Cyprus and all Cypriots without any let or hinderance.

[Piratis]

You totaly miss the point

No, you miss it because you keep asking for a system that is similar to an association of independent countries to be applied to a single country.

If you want to follow the model of EU, as I said I accept to have the system of any EU country for our country. Not the system of a union of independent countries, to associate our independent countries (which is what you are asking for, and its called disguised partition).

Where they do not consider it a natural or democratic right for GC to be able to politically dictate to the TC community what will happen to all of Cyprus and all Cypriots without any let or hinderance.

What we have are Cypriot citizens that decide together for what will happen. All citizens should be equal. Not some to have 4.5 times more voting power than others because they are muslim and speak Turkish!!!

[erolz]

You totaly miss the point

No, you miss it because you keep asking for a system that is similar to an association of independent countries to be applied to a single country.

What I am doing is countering GC views that a system that gives political representation disproprtionately to numerical numbers is fundamentaly unfair, iundemocratic and unstable.

What we have are Cypriot citizens that decide together for what will happen. All citizens should be equal. Not some to have 4.5 times more voting power than others because they are muslim and speak Turkish!!!

The conceptual basis for a desire for TC community to have some politcial represntation disproportionate to its exact numbers is EXACTLY the same as the conceptual basis for why the RoC should have the same within the EU (and UN and other places) and the same as the baisis of equality od component states in federal situations.

[Piratis]

What I am doing is countering GC views that a system that gives political representation disproprtionately to numerical numbers is fundamentaly unfair, iundemocratic and unstable.

No, what you are doing is asking for a system of association of independent countries for Cyprus.

Why you do not accept ANY of the systems in any other EU country then??????

The conceptual basis for a desire for TC community to have some politcial represntation disproportionate to its exact numbers is EXACTLY the same as the conceptual basis for why the RoC should have the same within the EU (and UN and other places) and the same as the baisis of equality od component states in federal situations.

No it is NOT THE SAME AT ALL.
You can not apply as system of associating independent countries in a single country. This is why no EU country does such thing. Is this so hard for you to understand?