magikthrill wrote:
that is a different topic to discuss. from what i understood erol was trying to tell you that saying it is undemocratic to have disproportional voting is wrong because it is democratic based on the EU.and thats it.
from then on what happens in Cyprus is a different story.
Thank you again.
Piatis wrote:
Not the kind of disproportional voting that he wants. Thats why this kind of disproportional voting does not exist in other country in the world.
The diposrtional aspect of the voting that I propose is the same as
every federal country in the world. What is different is not the concept of component states having equality regardless of their size - that is true of all federal countires - it is the defintion of a federal county. The difference is in the ethnic composition of the component states. Yet you still insist now as you and others have before that it is the disporprtional to numerical numbers power of component states that is fundamantaly undemocratic- that democracy is a matter of 'mathematics' and other such claims and it is this I that I point out does not stand the test of comparission to other democratic system.
Piatis wrote:
This is why I accept any system of any EU country and he accepts none.
OK - I accept the Belgium system. But I also insist we have to apply it
exactly as it is in Belgium. I Insist we have to rename Cyprus as New Belgium. We have to adopt Flemmish and the other belgium languages as the offical language of New Belgium, rename Nicosia Brussels and all other towns after Belgium towns, start eating waffles and build a staue of a pissing boy in our capital and create a monarchy and new belgium royal family (I'll apply for that governemtn role). Do
you accept this model?
The above is clearly ridiculous but this is essesntialy what you are saying but to a less extreme and obvious degree. The fact is if we accept the belgium model we have to take the basic principals of that model and then apply it to Cyprus and the Cyprus problem. The basic principals of that model are the equality of component states regardless of their size. To apply this to Cyprus and the Cyprus problem we have to recognise that the component states have an ethnic component - becasue the Cyprus problem is one of recent and continuing ethnic clashes and of one ethnic groups attempt to force it will on another ehtnic group. So I accept the belgium model (or any other federal model) as long as it is applied to the Cyprus problem in a sensible and realistic way.
You start from a premis that in principal any political represntation disporportionate to numerical numbers is undemocratic. When the falacy of this argument is pointed out you reluctantly retreat to the next position (though continue to make the original argument anyway)
The next position is that in principal any political represntation disproportionate to numerical number within a country (but not between countries) is undemocratic. When the falacy of this argument is pointed out you reluctantly retreat back to the next position (though continue to make the original argument and if pushed this revised one)
The next position is that in principal any political representation disporoprtionate to numerical numbers within a country (but not between countries) and where the component states have a (protected) ethnic component is undemocratic. (though continue to make the original argument and when pushed the second revised one).
My problem is with the first and second position - which you repeatedly make. With the idea that in principal and fundamentaly what we proposed is undemocratic. By the time you reach the third position you are so far from fundamental principals of democray and more into the specfic situation of Cyprus yet you insist you objections are based on these fundamental principals of democracy. I have little doubt that if I were to present an example of a federal country with component states with equality regardless of size and with an ethinc element to the component states you would simply retreat back to another position that in principal any system of dispoportionate representation within a country (but not between countries) where there are component states with equality regardless of size and where there is an ethnic compnent to those component states and the ethnic component is between Greek and Turkish ethnicites is fundamental ans in principal undemocratic!
