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[DT.]

There are several parts to these issues.

First, can and should historical judgments be made by legislative assemblies. Second, can and should denial of a historical event or process warrant a criminal outlawing ?
Third, can and should the burden of responsibility of an action carried out by a long dead person or parties be placed on the shoulders of current or future persons. And what effect would such a burden actually result in ?
Fourth, governments come and go each denying responsibility for actions of its predecessors. On what basis and with what effect should we expect today's government to accept liability for actions of long previous governments ?

Why was the German govt still paying compensation to israel last year?

[DT.]

DT,
We know the reasons for your question ....Turkish leadership claimed it was a peace operation/ treaty obligation/ duty to protect TCs/ to protect fellow Turks/ to continue to provide security/ to prevent return to horrors of 60s/70s ... all the usual stuff. Whether these reasons are persuasive or not doesn't seem to have much bearing on whether a person of a future generation can meaningfully be held accountable for the actions of a person of a past generation.

continue to provide security from what? 2 generations ago? Horrors of what? Should we demand that a Greek army be in place in case of a solution because Denktash's grandchildren might start up tmt again and start murdering us?

you then go on to say

on whether a person of a future generation can meaningfully be held accountable for the actions of a person of a past generation

Your entire paragraph is contradictory

[CopperLine]

DT,
The point of my paragraph was simply to outline some of the reasons given for the continued Turkish military presence, whether we agree with them or not, whether we think they're credible or not.

German financial assistance to Israel was never part of an apology nor part of a formal acknowledgment of guilt. There had been massive opposition in Israel to any thing which might indicate or imply that the killing of Jews could be remedied, compensated or otherwise mitigated through financial assistance.

More generally, there is a basic problem with the notion of retrospective application of law and judgement. I don't think there is much value - and considerable objection - to governments or legislative assemblies apologising for actions taken by predecessors or other persons generations or centuries ago. For example, in the UK, it was not until 1991 that rape within marriage became a criminal offence. (In most countries still it is assumed that husbands can rape their wife as a matter of right). So we have centuries of and literally millions of instances of rape - what effective means are their for us (current generations) to apologise or compensate for what were previously not regarded as violent criminal acts ?

[BirKibrisli]

Correct me if I am wrong,but didn't Erdogan offer,some time ago,to open the Ottoman archives and let a Committee of historians examine all available evidence to determine what exactly did happen in 1915-16????

Why has nothing come of this???? it is obvious that something terrible did happen in those times of misery,otherwise why would people scream blue murder for so loudly and so long???To deny everything is like rubbing salt in people's wounds...Sometimes I think the pain could be worse than the actual event, to deny it so many years later so cold-bloodedly...Historical events can be put into their true perspective and people might even come to understand why they happened under the circumstances. But to deny it outright after the passing of so many years and with hindsight is not excusable...I invite all TCs to consider how much it hurts when our pain and suffering are minimised or underestimated or denied. And multiply it by a thousand...

[soyer]

Correct me if I am wrong,but didn't Erdogan offer,some time ago,to open the Ottoman archives and let a Committee of historians examine all available evidence to determine what exactly did happen in 1915-16????

Why has nothing come of this???? it is obvious that something terrible did happen in those times of misery,otherwise why would people scream blue murder for so loudly and so long???To deny everything is like rubbing salt in people's wounds...Sometimes I think the pain could be worse than the actual event, to deny it so many years later so cold-bloodedly...Historical events can be put into their true perspective and people might even come to understand why they happened under the circumstances. But to deny it outright after the passing of so many years and with hindsight is not excusable...I invite all TCs to consider how much it hurts when our pain and suffering are minimised or underestimated or denied. And multiply it by a thousand...

" All Turkish children also should be killed as they form a danger to the Armenian nation"

Hamparsum Boyaciyan, nicknamed "Murad," a former Ottoman parliamentarian who led Armenian guerilla forces, ravaging Turkish villages behind the lines, 1914. Cited from Mikael Varandean,

Because archives full of things like this, hidden Armanian archives hide Armenians crime.

"Unfortunately, if something is shouted loud enough, there are always those who believe it..."

[soyer]

one more!!!

"I killed Muslims by every means possible. Yet it is sometimes a pity to waste bullets for this. The best way is to gather all of these dogs and throw them into wells and then fill the wells with big and heavy stones. as I did. I gathered all of the women, men and children, threw big stones down on top of them. They must never live on this earth."

A. Lalayan, Revolutsionniy Vostok (Revolutionary East) No: 2-3, Moscow, 1936. (Highly deceptive Armenian activists on the Internet are spreading rumors there is no Lalayan. The above quote has been confirmed. Lalaian was an Armenian Soviet historian and the Dashnag report above was first published in issue 2-3 of the magazine, Revolyutsionniy Vostok and then in issue 2 of Istoricheskie Zapisky, the organ of the USSR Academy of Sciences, Institute of History, The above quote is from a proud Dashnag officer, Aslem Varaam, in the report he wrote from the Beyazit-Vaaram region in 1920, Updated translation:: “I exterminated the Turkish population in Bashar-Gechar without making any exceptions. One sometimes feels the bullets shouldn’t be wasted. So, the most effective way against these dogs is to collect the people who have survived the clashes and dump them in deep holes and crush them under heavy rocks pressed from above, not to let them inhabit this world any longer. So I did accordingly. I collected all the women, men and children and extinguished their lives in the deep holes I dumped them into, crushing them with rocks.”)

[soyer]

This is interesting they also HATE Greeks.

"It is in our blood to hate the Turks. However, we hate Bulgarians and Greeks also. The Jews like Turks, but they hate Arabs. The Arabs, in their turn, are not in favour with the Turks. And the level of hatred is rising."

Narek Mesropian, described as Armenia's poet laureate, in Golos Armenii, a Russian-language newspaper in Armenia, in an August 5, 1997 article reflecting the tension between the Armenian and Jewish communities. Interestingly, the Turks are not accused of hating anybody.

[ARMENIAN CYPRIOT]

one more!!!

"I killed Muslims by every means possible. Yet it is sometimes a pity to waste bullets for this. The best way is to gather all of these dogs and throw them into wells and then fill the wells with big and heavy stones. as I did. I gathered all of the women, men and children, threw big stones down on top of them. They must never live on this earth."

A. Lalayan, Revolutsionniy Vostok (Revolutionary East) No: 2-3, Moscow, 1936. (Highly deceptive Armenian activists on the Internet are spreading rumors there is no Lalayan. The above quote has been confirmed. Lalaian was an Armenian Soviet historian and the Dashnag report above was first published in issue 2-3 of the magazine, Revolyutsionniy Vostok and then in issue 2 of Istoricheskie Zapisky, the organ of the USSR Academy of Sciences, Institute of History, The above quote is from a proud Dashnag officer, Aslem Varaam, in the report he wrote from the Beyazit-Vaaram region in 1920, Updated translation:: “I exterminated the Turkish population in Bashar-Gechar without making any exceptions. One sometimes feels the bullets shouldn’t be wasted. So, the most effective way against these dogs is to collect the people who have survived the clashes and dump them in deep holes and crush them under heavy rocks pressed from above, not to let them inhabit this world any longer. So I did accordingly. I collected all the women, men and children and extinguished their lives in the deep holes I dumped them into, crushing them with rocks.”)

This is from 1920, 5 years after the genocide . Armenia was also invaded by peaceful Turkey that year.

[ARMENIAN CYPRIOT]

This is interesting they also HATE Greeks.

"It is in our blood to hate the Turks. However, we hate Bulgarians and Greeks also. The Jews like Turks, but they hate Arabs. The Arabs, in their turn, are not in favour with the Turks. And the level of hatred is rising."

Narek Mesropian, described as Armenia's poet laureate, in Golos Armenii, a Russian-language newspaper in Armenia, in an August 5, 1997 article reflecting the tension between the Armenian and Jewish communities. Interestingly, the Turks are not accused of hating anybody.

If you say so it must be true.

[ARMENIAN CYPRIOT]

First-hand account by a Turkish army officer on the deportation of Armenians from Trebizond and Erzerum, December 26, 1916

__________________________________________________

CIRCULATED TO THE KING AND WAR CABINET
[December 26, 1916]
ARMENIAN MASSACRES.
Report by an Eye-Witness, Lieutenant Sayied Ahmed Moukhtar Baas.

———————-

In April 1915 I was quartered at Erzeroum. An order came from Constantinople that Armenians inhabiting the frontier towns and village be deported to the interior. It was said then that this was only a precautional measure. I saw at that time large convoys of Armenians go through Erzeroum. They were mostly old men, women and children. Some of the able-bodied men had been recruited in the Turkish Army and many had fled to Russia. The massacres had not begun yet. In May 1915 I was transferred to Trebizond. In July an order came to deport to the interior all the Armenians in the Vilayet of Trebizond. Being a member of the Court Martial I knew that deportations meant massacres.

The Armenian Bishop of Trebizond was ordered to proceed under escort to Erzeroum to answer for charges trumped up against him. But instead of Erzeroum he was taken to Baipurt and from there to Gumush-Khana. The Governor of the latter place was then Colonel Abdul-Kadar Aintabli of the General Staff. He is famous for his atrocities against the Armenians. He had the Bishop murdered at night. The Bishop of Erzeroum was also murdered at Gumush-Khana.

Besides the deportation order referred to above an Imperial "Iradeh" was issued ordering that all deserters when caught, should be shot without trial. The secret order read "Armenians" in lieu of "deserters". The Sultan's "Iradeh" was accompanied by a "fatwa" from Sheikh-ul-Islam stating that the Armenians had shed Moslem blood and their killing was lawful. Then the deportations started. The children were kept back at first. The Government opened up a school for the grown up children and the American Consul of Trebizond instituted an asylum for the infants. When the first batches of Armenians arrived at Gumush-Khana all able-bodied men were sorted out with the excuse that they were going to be given work. The women and children were sent ahead under escort with the assurance by the Turkish authorities that their final destination was Mosul and that no harm will befall them. The men kept behind, were taken out of town in batches of 15 and 20, lined up on the edge of ditches prepared beforehand, shot and thrown into the ditches. Hundreds of men were shot every day in a similar manner. The women and children were attacked on their way by the ("Shotas") the armed bands organised by the Turkish Government who attacked them and seized a certain number. After plundering and committing the most dastardly outrages on the women and children they massacred them in cold blood. These attacks were a daily occurrence until every woman and child had been got rid of. The military escorts had strict orders not to interfere with the "Shotas".

The children that the Government had taken in charge were also deported and massacred.

The infants in the care of the American Consul of Trebizond were taken away with the pretext that they were going to be sent to Sivas where an asylum had been prepared for them. They were taken out to sea in little boats. At some distance out they were stabbed to death, put in sacks and thrown into the sea. A few days later some of their little bodies were washed up on the shore at Trebizond.

In July 1915 I was ordered to accompany a convoy of deported Armenians. It was the last batch from Trebizond. There were in the convoy 120 men, 700 children and about 400 women. From Trebizond I took them to Gumish-Khana. Here the 120 men were taken away, and, as I was informed later, they were all killed. At Gumish-Khana I was ordered to take the women and children to Erzinjian. On the way I saw thousands of bodies of Armenians unburied. Several bands of "Shotas" met us on the way and wanted me to hand over to them women and children. But I persistently refused. I did leave on the way about 300 children with Moslem families who were willing to take care of them and educate them. The "Mutessarrif" of Erzinjian ordered me to proceed with the convoy to Kamack. At the latter place the authorities refused to take charge of the women and children. I fell ill and wanted to go back, but I was told that as long as the Armenians in my charge were alive I would be sent from one place to the other. However I managed to include my batch with the deported Armenians that had come from Erzeroum. In charge of the latter was a colleague of mine Mohamed Effendi from the Gendarmerie. He told me afterwards that after leaving Kamach they came to a valley where the Euphrates ran. A band of Shotas sprang out and stopped the convoy. They ordered the escort to keep away and then shot every one of the Armenians and threw them in the river.

At Trebizond the Moslems were warned that if they sheltered Armenians they would be liable to the death penalty.

Government officials at Trebizond picked up some of the prettiest Armenian women of the best families. After committing the worst outrages on them they had them killed.

Cases of rape of women and girls even publicly are very numerous. They were systematically murdered after the outrage.

The Armenians deported from Erzeroum started with their cattle and whatever possessions they could carry. When they reached Erzinjian they became suspicious seeing that all the Armenians had already been deported. The Vali of Erzeroum allayed their fears and assured them most solemnly that no harm would befall them. He told them that the first convoy should leave for Kamach, the others remaining at Erzeroum until they received word from their friends informing of their safe arrival to destination. And so it happened. Word came that the first batch had arrived safely at Kamach, which was true enough. But the men were kept at Kamach and shot, and the women were massacred by the Shotas after leaving that town.

The Turkish officials in charge of the deportation and extermination of the Armenians were: At Erzeroum, Bihas Eddin Shaker Bey; At Trebizond; Naiil Bey, Tewfik Bey Monastirly, Colonel of Gendarmerie, The Commissioner of Police; At Kamach; The member of Parliament for Erzinjian. The Shotas headquarters were also at Kamach. Their chief was the Kurd Murzabey who boasted that he alone had killed 70,000 Armenians. Afterwards he was thought to be dangerous by the Turks and thrown into prison charged with having hit a gendarme. He was eventually executed in secret.

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