Cyprus-Forum.com

[bill cobbett]

Welcome to the forum new member Soyer. Any chance of shoving that crappy flag up your bum please?

[Get Real!]

Welcome to the forum new member Soyer. Any chance of shoving that crappy flag up your bum please?

Young aspiring cadet... always remember that the flag's POLE is a lot more effective so when making indecent proposals ensure they are INDECENT enough!

[bill cobbett]

Welcome to the forum new member Soyer. Any chance of shoving that crappy flag up your bum please?

Young aspiring cadet... always remember that the flag's POLE is a lot more effective so when making indecent proposals ensure they are INDECENT enough!

Ouch. That's got to hurt.

[CanDiaz]

/PanARMENIAN.Net/ On June 12, 2008, the Swedish parliament, with a vote 245 to 37 (1 abstain, 66 absent), rejected a call for recognition of the 1915 genocide in the Ottoman Empire. On June 11, a long debate took place in the Swedish Parliament in regard to the Foreign Committee report on Human Rights, including five motions calling upon the Swedish Government and Parliament to officially recognize the 1915 Armenian Genocide, head of the Armenian Associations of Sweden Vahagn Avedian told PanARMENIAN.Net.

The argumentation for why recognition should be rejected was based on four main assumptions: “no particular consideration regarding the Armenian situation has ever been in form of an UN Resolution, either in 1985 or any other occasion; the Committee understands that what engulfed the Armenians, Assyrian/Syrians and Chaldeans during the reign of the Ottoman Empire would, according to the 1948 Convention, probably be regarded as genocide, if it had been in power at the time; there is still a disagreement among the experts regarding the different course of events of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire. The same applies to the underlying causes and how the assaults shall be classified; [in regard to the development in Turkey] in the time being, it would be venturesome to disturb an initiate and delicate national process.”

Why even bother? It happened, just like in Germany & Russia & a billion other places, why be insensitive & post this? Your just gonna piss people off & give the racists here an excuse.

[soyer]

I did enjoy very much,

Undoubtedly Swedish parliamentarians also look and study this documents plus hundreds more oppose documents before they vote 245 to 37, without thinking about Armenian votes at next election, unlike French and other colleagues. So obviously oppose documents proving there is no genocide against Armanians in Turkey.

My understanding what happen 1915 is not much different then Cyprus 1974, Turkish army stop genocide halfway. Sampson was brave enough to accept this in 1981 "Sampson admitted his plan was to commit genocide against the Turks: "Had Turkey not intervened I would not only have proclaimed 'enosis,' I would have annihilated the Turks in Cyprus." Eleftherotipia, Feb. 26, 1981.)". Armanians did same, start they genocide act agains defenseless people and force Turkish army to step in and stop genocide attempt, at this point Turkish Government decide to separate two community by sending Armenians to neighboring Northern Iraq and Syria. Result of this both community suffer.

Furthermore about GERMAN AMBASSADOR WANGENHEIM report date 7/3/1915 is within my knowledge for some time now, he also write one before this even before Armanian genocide tale, that is in my agenda for new topic.






Otto Liman Von Sanders (German Field-Marshall); Baron Von Wagenheim (German Ambassador); Henry Morganthau (American Ambassador); Sir Louis Mallet (British Ambassador); Edmund George Fitzmaurice (British Dragoman); others.

[soyer]

Welcome to the forum new member Soyer. Any chance of shoving that crappy flag up your bum please?

You welcome shoving your flag up your bum where and when ever you like if you don't have respect to it or if is not a honorable flag.



HAPPINESS, LIVE UNDER TURKISH FLAG.

[ARMENIAN CYPRIOT]

From the Danish Archives. Enjoy Soyer
DOCUMENT 3 1915-09-22-DK-001

The minister in Constantinople (Carl Ellis Wandel) to the foreign
minister (Erik Scavenius)

Source : Danish National Archives, Foreign Office,Group Cases
1909-1945. Dept. 139, Gr. D, No. 1, "Turkey - Inner Relations".

Package 1, to Dec. 31, 1916

No. CXXV [125]

Constantinople, September 22, 1915.

Mr. Foreign Minister,

In my earlier reports I have already tried to demonstrate how H. M.

the Sultan rules, and how the Committee is managing.

I have tried to demonstrate that Turkey has been incautious in giving
up its neutrality, given that the country`s position will be very
difficult if the war ends with a victory of one of the groups of
Great Powers.

Regarding the fate of the country if the Entente powers win, Mr.

Foreign Minister is far better informed than I ; the matters that I
have the opportunity to observe will only have a minor influence in
the event of such an outcome, and I therefore prefer to deal with
the question of what will happen in the event of a victory for the
Central Powers.

If the Central Powers are victorious, and the Balkan coalition is
not being reformed against the "German danger," Turkey will in all
probability be faced with the choice of either giving up the major
parts of its political and economic independence to the benefit of
Germany, who will then gain firm ground here, or to enter into a
probably rather hopeless struggle for independence against its mighty
ally, and when this choice is to be made, the matters that I observe
daily could be decisive.

There is already full awareness in the German embassy here, that a
serious conflict between Germany and Turkey, who in a future union
undoubtedly will demand an equal status, hardly will be avoidable,
even at best, if the chauvinists remain in power. Some remarks made
to me recently by the embassy`s advisory specialist in Balkan policy
is certainly indicative thereof.

When I, after having expressed my admiration for the great and
outstanding achievements of the German diplomatic and military missions
to the benefit of Germany`s interests, added that I still found it
hard to forgive German Balkan policy that it, by strengthening and
flattering the Committee, has helped bring about its arrogance and
xenophobia to such an extent that the government here has become
thoroughly intractable, he answered that, from the German position,
this was readily regretted.

"But you must not forget," he said, "that we had no other option ;
we needed Turkey`s help - it was for us a matter of life and death,
and we had to let things slide."

By and large, there can therefore hardly be much doubt about where
it goes from here ; since the foreign warships (station ships) left
the roadstead of Constantinople, the presumptuousness of the Young
Turks has been ever increasing, and there can probably be no talk of
moderation in thought and principles before the ships return.

A thorough study of the prospects in the event of a victory for the
Central Powers, though, faces many difficulties, since it is almost
impossible to obtain reliable information about the composition and
practical circumstances of the true, but irresponsible, government
of the country - the Committee. The history of the Committe has not
yet been written, and the persons who know it dare not speak out.

Considering the topicality of the subject, I will still try to give,
based on what I learn here, a short description of the Committee
and its men - who make up a kind of directorate, consisting of 15-20
members, that decides the actions of the government - and of the change
in its policy since July 1908, when it intervened for the first time
in the fate of the country with a firm grip and, measured with the
standards of this country, [became] a uniquely thorough organization.

The distinctive feature of the Young Turk Committee has always been,
and still is, its organizational strength. Without this firmness,
the Committee would not have been able to withstand being persecuted
by despotism, and to even grow in strength to such an extent that
it could topple the old regime. This organizational firmness, which
the Committee created in its earliest days when it toiled with its
great work of liberation, it has kept since that time, for better
or for worse, and when in power it has, aided by that firmness,
been able to get away with unpunished abuses similar to that of
the toppled despotism, [and,] aided by it, it could regain power by
determined action when it had been dethroned. And the Committee is
not only equipped with this organizational strength, it also is and
has always been the only Turkish political organization in possession
of this quality ; all the other parties, that have been formed since
the introduction of the constitution, have lacked it - and they have
quickly succumbed.

An effect of this state of things is that the top positions of the
Committee are no longer held by the theorists who originally drew
up the program of the Committee, but by its political-organizational
leaders, those men who have worked in the service of the organization
from the beginning, not as great idealists or founding statesmen,
but as organizers who use all means to further the well-being of their
organization. This fact also explains that the Committee now, albeit
under much the same leaders as in its earliest years of struggle,
actually fights for a completely different program than then it had -
it is not the ideals, but power that has been and is being fought for.

Among the men in the leadership of the Committee, one first of all
has to mention the present leader of the government, interior minister
Talaat Bey, without doubt a significant politician.

Talaat Bey, former telegraphist in the provinces, was working for
the Committee from its earliest days, and he came to the forefront
immediately after the revolution as one of the leaders of Turkish
politics, but only after 1909 did he and other Young Turk leaders
become direct members of the government - Talaat Bey as interior
minister - to replace the old Pashas, who still for some time had
been allowed to remain in office as puppets. It was Talaat Bey who,
when the Committee had been toppled by "the liberating officers"
(in the Spring of 1912), led the secret effort of the Committee
to regain power, and he who, together with his friends, in effect,
by nationalistic demonstrations, forced Kiamil [Kamil] Pasha, the
then Grand Vizier, to engage in the unfortunate war against the
Balkan states (the end of 1912), instead of accepting to effectively
implement the reforms demanded by the Powers. And once again, it was
Talaat Bey who, together with Enver Pasha, was the leader behind the
new coup d`etat, that once again brought the Young Turks to power -
in accordance with Talaat`s plan at the exact moment when the Kiamil
cabinet sent the note to the Great Powers, where it gave up Adrianople
as a result of the urgent requests of those Powers. Kiamil Pasha`s
abandonment of the holy Adrianople would have put the men of the coup
d`etat in a more flattering light as national liberators who toppled
the cabinet that had unnecessarily surrendered parts of the country,
but, as chance would have it, the toppled cabinet had not delivered
the note of reply to the Powers (it had been sent, but because of an
editorial error it was called back before the delivery to the Austrian
ambassador), and it was the new Young Turk ministry that was left with
responsibility for the decision. It was luck - the internal struggle
of the Balkan states - and not foresight that saved Talaat and the
Committee`s power and regained Adrianople for Turkey.

Since then, Talaat has more and more become the centre of the Young
Turk Committee. The military members - and especially Enver Pasha
- have had to focus on the defence of the country, and the entire
government has slipped into the hands of Talaat Bey, who actually is
both minister of the interior, of finance, and of foreign affairs.

Close to Talaat is his friend Halil Bey, chairman of the deputy chamber
and of the Committee, Bedri Bey, prefect of the security police in
Turkey (in the Spring of 191[ ?] he had been condemned to death for
having shot a military police officer, had later escaped from prison,
been pardoned, and made chief of public security), Nazim Bey, the
Committee`s chauvinist secretary general and leader of the daily
administration of the Committee, Midhat Chukri Bey and Behaeddine
Chakir Bey, also pronounced chauvinists, Hussein Djahid Bey, former
editor of the Committee`s organ "Tanin," and Djavid Bey, the former
finance minister, who took care of the great loan in France in 1914,
from a Jewish family that converted to Islam, originally school
inspector in the provinces, etc., etc.

A person completely preoccupied at the moment by the military events
is Enver Pasha, the officer who, together with Niazi Bey who was
killed shortly after, in June 1908 raised the rebel banner with his
troops in Albania, and thereby originated the revolution itself,
after which he became military attache in Berlin, a nomination that
surely has had a great impact on the relationship between Germany and
Turkey. After having returned to Turkey he became chief of staff for
the 10th Army Corps, was an active participant in the coup d`etat in
1913, and led the triumphant expedition to Adrianople. As a reward
he was, albeit relatively late, made minister of war in January 1914,
and thereby gained all of Turkey`s military power in his hand, after
the Committee had fired all the old generals and high ranking officers,
who enjoyed popularity with the troops, and replaced them with Enver
Pasha`s new proteges.

Another influential military member of the Committee was until lately
Enver Pasha`s co-suitor to the military leadership, Djemal Pasha, the
former military commander of Constantinople, named Pasha the same day
as Enver, decorated with the Osmanieh Order at the same time as Enver,
and finally, on Enver Pasha`s advice, made traffic minister to limit
his influence, but later, after urgent request, made marine minister,
a capacity in which he worked with great force on the renewal of the
fleet right until the beginning of the war, when he left Constantinople
as chief of the army that was sent to Egypt. From this time on, Djemal
Pasha has naturally been unable to participate in the governing of
Turkey, and the Marine Ministry too has been in the hands of Enver.

Among other people who have left their mark on the work of the
Committee during the past time, besides from the "liberator" Mahmoud
Chevket Pasha who was murdered in June 1913, must be mentioned Azmi
Bey, who, together with the then military commander of the city,
Djemal Pasha, and in connection with Talaat Bey, led the terror
regime as Chief of Police in the capital after the killing of Mahmoud
Chevket Pasha, but who on the Russian embassy`s firm demand was sent
to Konia shortly thereafter as governor, furthermore Hadji Adil Bey,
the present governor in Adrianople, mentioned in my report No. CXXIII
[123] of yesterday, and finally 2 men, who have eventually distanced
themselves from the Committee because they could not follow it in its
lust for power and its abuse : Rahmy Bey, the governor of the vilayet
Aidin (Smyrna), who, as also mentioned in my earlier reports, several
times has opposed the Committee`s orders when he found them unjust,
and Ahmed Riza Bey, who became the only important opponent of the
Committee`s autocracy in the last parliamentary session. Riza Tevfik
Bey, an influential member in the early days of the Committee as the
original intellectual protagonist of the Committee, and very esteemed
by all sides, also by the opponents of the Committee, was already at
an early stage repulsed by the way the rulers realized his ideals,
and was already in 1910 among the opponents of the Committee.

The Committee for Union and Progress took control under the motto :
Equal rights for all Ottomans. But to achieve the unity, that was at
the beginning of the Committe`s title, in the vast and ethnographically
tangled empire, there had to be created both an Ottoman sense of unity
shared by all peoples of the empire, and be raised guarantees that
this new "Ottomanism" would also be led by the Young Turk members
of the Committee in the future, both be created equal rights for all
Ottoman citizens, without consideration for nationality and religion
(the idealistic demands of the revolution), and made sure that the new
Ottomanism would still become a purely Turkish movement. The struggle
between these demands lasted for some time, until the Committee
immediately after the end of the Balkan war threw one of the demands
(equal rights for all Ottomans) overboard and decided to go forward
along the road of Turkification, the road that is characterized by
the anti-Greek boycott in the Spring of 1914 that affected those
Greeks who were Ottoman subjects just as well as the Greek subjects,
the simultaneous persecutions of the Greeks in Asia Minor and Thrace,
and, later that same year - with German assistance - the declaration
of Jihad, which was favoured by the World War and the subsequent
abrogation of the capitulations, and which finally has led to the
xenophobic and nationalistic policy, whose effects I have lately looked
closely upon several times in my reports, and whose main purpose at the
moment is the extermination of the Armenian population of the empire.

Mr. Foreign Minister will maybe realize from this account, in spite of
its faultiness, that it does not seem to be men with great political
refinement and experience, or with good knowledge, who now rule Turkey,
but people whose foolhardiness and irrepressable force of will and
action has replaced the former inertia, which was the strength of
the old Pashas before 1908, and Germany, should the occasion arise,
will have to realize that they are not manageable.

They are chauvinists and xenophobes, more or less true fanatics and
enthusiastic desperados ; for some of them there can be no doubt about
their integrity, but the common perception is that it will continue
down that same road that has already led to so many serious conflicts.

After the Greeks and the Armenians, the Jews and the Germans will most
likely be next, and it is very probable that the present government
will, at a given moment, prefer to play va banque and put everything on
the line, rather than understand that wise compliance and a compromise
for practical reasons can be preferable to a policy that almost can
be characterized as national suicide.

With the highest esteem I remain, Mr. Minister, yours faithfully

[Wandel]

[ARMENIAN CYPRIOT]

More from the Danish Archives
DOCUMENT 4

1916-04-27-DK-001

The minister in Constantinople (Carl Ellis Wandel) to the foreign
minister (Erik Scavenius)

Source : Danish National Archives, Foreign Office, Group Cases
1909-1945. Dept. 139, Gr. N, No. 1, "Armenia"

No. LXXXXVIII [98]

Constantinople, April 27, 1916.

Confidential.

Mr. Foreign Minister,

The Papal minister [Angelo Marie Dolci] yesterday turned up in the
local Spanish legation [in Constantinople] accompanied by a German
Catholic priest who had arrived here from the Turkish Vilayet of Angora
in Asia Minor, where he has witnessed the treatment that has befallen
the local Armenian Catholic congregation, and which he introduced to
the [Spanish] minister, whom they asked to intervene and protest to
the Porte in the name of Catholic Spain.

The reason for their turning to the Spanish legation, they said, was
because the German and Austrian embassies had such a relationship
with the Turkish government that they, in order not to [offend]
it, had to show so much consideration that they really could not
energetically plead the cause of the Armenians.

When one bears in mind that the two embassies mentioned represent
24 and 34 million Catholics respectively, and that the leader of the
Catholic Centrum of the German Reichstag [Matthias Erzberger] in these
very days is here in Constantinople on an official visit as a guest
of the Turkish government, and that the local German ambassador,
Count Metternich, himself is a Catholic, one can conclude by this
request how careful the German diplomacy in Turkey is now acting,
and the extent to which it weighs Germany`s political considerations
over all other considerations.

Even though, as it appears from my report No. CXIII [113] of September
4 last year, 13 of the 16 Catholic congregations that existed among
the Armenians in Turkey outside of Constantinople have disappeared
completely, without anyone having knowledge of what has happened to
all of the clergy, the Catholic Centrum of the German Reichstag does
not seem to dare to attempt any forceful intervention on behalf of
its unfortunate, persecuted co-religionists.

While describing the state of things, I shall not refrain from adding
that it is very possible that even a vigorous German diplomatic
intervention on behalf of the Armenians would not move the Turkish
government to refrain from its project, because the great effort that
the local American embassy, which does not have to show the same
kind of consideration as the German and Austrian embassy, has done
to save the Armenians, has, the American Charge d`Affaires [Phillips]
tells me, been fruitless, and this has in all probability, after what
I only later have learned, also been one of the contributing factors
to the departure of the American ambassador [Henry Morgenthau].

With the highest esteem I remain, Mr. Minister, yours faithfully

[Wandel]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ARMENIAN CYPRIOT]

Even more from the Danish Archives
DOCUMENT 5

1916-03-14-DK-001

The minister in Constantinople (Carl Ellis Wandel) to the foreign
minister (Erik Scavenius)

Source : Danish National Archives, Foreign Office, Group Cases
1909-1945. Dept. 139, Gr. N, No. 1, "Armenia"

1 enclosure.

No. LVIII [58]

Constantinople, March 14, 1916.

Mr Foreign Minister,

In continuation of my report No. LIV [54] dated the 10th of this
month concerning the persecutions of the Armenians, I have the honor
to report that the latest pieces of information received here state
that the general removal of the Armenian population, which has already
taken place in all the other Vilayets of Asia Minor except for the
Vilayet Aidin (Smyrna), has now also begun in the Vilayet of Castamuni,
in which the Armenians hitherto have not been disturbed.

The governor of the Vilayet of Castamuni, who has not used the
authority given to him to have the Armenian population removed,
has been dismissed, and in his place the governor up till now of the
Vilayet of Angora, who has been more zealous, has been appointed.

I use the opportunity to send an enclosed official announcement from
today concerning the execution of 4 Armenians, who were hanged in
Stambul yesterday morning.

With the highest esteem I remain, Mr. Minister, yours faithfully

[Wandel]

Enclosure : "Lloyd Ottoman", March 14, 1916 :

Pendaisons

[CBBB]

Armenian Cypriot,

There is very little point in posting so much eveidence in a thread like this, people like Soyer will never listen or evaluate the information available. They will just stick to their indoctrinated views whatever.

You could even take them back in a time machine to see for themselves and they still will not change their mind.