Cyprus-Forum.com

[Tim Drayton]

Pantheman, I hear you very clearly. Your land is yours. Hey look at it this way you may be able to get some land in Lemessos from a TC who wont return back. Although probably not as beautiful as your land. At least you'd be richer

Pantheman I think the RoC agreeing to open the crossings has been the biggest mistake it made because in a small Island nation as Cyprus it is difficult not to want to explore if you are there.

Don't you feel that in the long term, the ability of ordinary Cypriots to travel throughout their whole island and meet people from the other community can only make a positive contribution to the process of peace and reconciliation? I don't think you can underestimate the importance of bicommunal events like the festival involving Turkish Cypriot and Greek Cypriot artists, and attended by people from both communities, currently being held in Agia Varvara (which I hope to go to). What I think is currently missing from the peace process is a movement for reunification at the level of civil society which embraces both communities. This, to my mind, is a prerequisite for building a united Cyprus. This can only happen if the crossings remain open.

[humanist]

Tim, perhaps i did not express myself clearly.

Firstly I do agree that bicommunal events are the way to go.

I was referring to panthemans coment. above in which case the only way to prevent tourists from visiting the occupied areas and hence allowing Turkey to continue to violate human rights is to close the crossings. Pantheman also has a point in what he sayss. he has lost all of his family's land and someone is exploiting it. This issue is also not fair.

So how do you deal with this situation? fairly

[Tim Drayton]

Tim, perhaps i did not express myself clearly.

Firstly I do agree that bicommunal events are the way to go.

I was referring to panthemans coment. above in which case the only way to prevent tourists from visiting the occupied areas and hence allowing Turkey to continue to violate human rights is to close the crossings. Pantheman also has a point in what he sayss. he has lost all of his family's land and someone is exploiting it. This issue is also not fair.

So how do you deal with this situation? fairly

I beg to differ, I am afraid. In the first place, the whole of Cyprus was admitted to the EU in 2004. Nobody has any business denying legitimate visitors access to any part of the island, and, legally, the RoC, as an EU-member, state cannot shut the gates even if it wanted to.

I am sympathetic towards the plight of refugees and personally want to see a settlement that fully respects the rule of law i.e. all property returns to its legitimate owners and trespassers are expelled. There is an interesting TC argument, which may sound cynical to you, that in the evnt of a just settlement, the owners of hotels like the Dome hotel in Kyrenia will be able to take over going concerns operating from well-maintained buildings, while the owners of hotels in Varosha will acquire crumbling wrecks that will have to be pulled down. In other words, since TC businessmen - even if according to international law they are trespassers - are nevertheless running these hotels as going concerns, and are thus maintaining both the physical integrity of the buildings and the goodwill of the businesses.

I know what the north of Cyprus was like in the early nineties, in the darkest days of partition. Ex-TMT thugs ruled the roost and official propaganda preached hatred towards Greek Cypriots. This was made easy because there was so little contact between Turkish Cypriots and any other people apart from mainland Turks. I remember there used to be signs along the Green Line warning you that you walked here at your own risk because you may be fired at from the opposite side.

Winds of change have blown into the north of Cyprus, and free movement across the divide has made a great contribution to this. In my view, the political advantages of opening up the north to both tourists and Greek Cypriots in counteracting the propaganda of the Turkish occupying forces far outweighs any other disadvantages.

[pantheman]

Tim, perhaps i did not express myself clearly.

Firstly I do agree that bicommunal events are the way to go.

I was referring to panthemans coment. above in which case the only way to prevent tourists from visiting the occupied areas and hence allowing Turkey to continue to violate human rights is to close the crossings. Pantheman also has a point in what he sayss. he has lost all of his family's land and someone is exploiting it. This issue is also not fair.

So how do you deal with this situation? fairly

I beg to differ, I am afraid. In the first place, the whole of Cyprus was admitted to the EU in 2004. Nobody has any business denying legitimate visitors access to any part of the island, and, legally, the RoC, as an EU-member, state cannot shut the gates even if it wanted to.

Tim,

In the first instance I shall agree to disagree as this subject has been well covered previously. You (and I am guessing from some Turkish origin) have your views and I my own.

But I would like to pick you up on the highlighted section above.

Please go to the UK and tell the idiot judge who heared the Orams Vs Apostolides case what you have just stated here. He didn't see fit to take that into consideration, only to tell them that article 10 (excuse me if I got it wrong, can't remember) was suspended in the North. Seems its another case of whats yours is yours and whats mine is also yours.

The North are always in a position to be appeased whilst the south always have to do the bending over (excuse the pun).

So, I ask you please, don't give me the EU bullshit, the reason the Turks opened the boarders, in my opinion , is 2 fold.

1. Financial, because they want to make money out of it
2. They are trying to get recognition through the back door.

Turkeys seems to think that if enough people go over and talk about it then they would be readily accepted, ignoring the implementation of human rights, international laws, and others. In other words they want to legitimise the illegalities they have committed and everything to be Hunkey Dorey. Well they can kiss my hairy arse!

Turkey does things for very good reasons and none of those is for the Cypriot benefit, I assure you.

I think I have made my point.

P.S. Andreas, I am with you mate on this one.

[Tim Drayton]

Pantheman, you appear not be aware of later developments in the Orams case. In 2007 the panel of judges ruled that the case be transferred to the European Court of Justice precisely because of the European dimension.

More info:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/6768137.stm

[pantheman]

Pantheman, you appear not be aware of later developments in the Orams case. In 2007 the panel of judges ruled that the case be transferred to the European Court of Justice precisely because of the European dimension.

More info:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/6768137.stm

Tim, thank you, I am well aware of this. The point I was making was, that since as you put it, the whole of Cyprus is in the EU, why the judge couldn't use that, but instead passed the buck to the European Court.

Reason, being, if he had made the ruling then alot of british buyers in the north would have had his balls and the UK would have had a massive fall out with Turkey, and we can't have that can we?

Again, since you can see that the whole of Cyprus is in the EU, why couldn't he??

It's just another case of, whatever suits the criminals.

[Tim Drayton]

Pantheman, you appear not be aware of later developments in the Orams case. In 2007 the panel of judges ruled that the case be transferred to the European Court of Justice precisely because of the European dimension.

More info:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/6768137.stm

Tim, thank you, I am well aware of this. The point I was making was, that since as you put it, the whole of Cyprus is in the EU, why the judge couldn't use that, but instead passed the buck to the European Court.

Reason, being, if he had made the ruling then alot of british buyers in the north would have had his balls and the UK would have had a massive fall out with Turkey, and we can't have that can we?

Again, since you can see that the whole of Cyprus is in the EU, why couldn't he??

It's just another case of, whatever suits the criminals.

Essentially, the phenomenon known as "international law" will always serve the interests of the major imperialistic powers of the day. Therein lies the flaw in the strategy that says, since international law is on our side, let's crush the Turkish Cypriots into submission. This just acts like a red flag to a bull and drives the Turkish Cypriot people into Turkey's hands, thus furthering Turkey's regional expansionist plans. What is needed is a strategy that unites all the people of Cyprus to fight for the island's own interests.