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Stop the deportations. Support asylum seekers

Feel free to talk about anything that you want.

Do you support the principle of asylum (a place of safety or refuge for those persecuted) ?

Yes
6
40%
No
9
60%
 
Total votes : 15

Postby CopperLine » Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:41 am

Svetlana wrote:But hang on, what are they seeking asylum from? They are not LTTE terrorists (Tamil Tigers) they are just ordinary people who have decided they would like to stay here although unentitled to do so, in normal circumstances.

While I condem this Government for failing to observe EU Rules on non-EU citizens who are entitled to a Green Card, I do not understand why they take such a soft line on granting asylum to those who are not being persecuted in their native land.

Lana


Hold on Svetlana ... even if a Sri Lankan seeking asylum is not an LTTE sympathisers or supporter, but is instead someone who is caught in the middle of a war zone and fears or experiences persecution from 'both' sides, then surely their search for protection or safe haven is perfectly legitimate. The truth of the matter is that the proportion of people who seek asylum in the UK or even the EU as a whole, is a tiny tiny minority of those who area actually subjected to daily horrendous persecution. We need to get a sense of proportion. Again the truth of the matter is that the states which actually offer the greatest numbers asylum are some of the poorest states in the world eg, Ethiopia, Uganda, Tanzania, Nigeria, India, Pakistan. It is simply not true that it is western states which are 'flooded' with asylum seekers.
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Re: Stop the deportations. Support asylum seekers

Postby Oracle » Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:58 am

CopperLine wrote:Stop the deportations. Support asylum seekers. Noone is illegal


Playing the reactionary youth CopperLine? .... Sold all your copies of "Morning Star" early today I see :lol:

The principle of "Asylum" is not under threat. So where is your problem?

The article you posted identifies the hazards of the over-worked system in taking so long to process cases that the seekers endure financial hardship and suffer from the severing of bonds they establish in the interim.

Nowhere does the article suggest asylum seeking is endangered. Rather sounds very popular and on the increase.

Address the issues of how to deal with asylum seekers effectively if you are at all concerned, and not the principle, which at least exists in the UK ... unlike some places closer to your origins :wink: (Turkey?)
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Postby Get Real! » Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:31 pm

Your Anarchistic tendencies are surfacing Copperline… :lol:
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Postby Oracle » Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:34 pm

Get Real! wrote:Your Anarchistic tendencies are surfacing Copperline… :lol:


30 years too late!

Slow developer? :lol:
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Postby CopperLine » Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:37 pm

As any fule nose* Morning Star is not sold on street corners - that's Socialist Worker :roll:


Get Real - so in a matter of a few posts I've been pigeon-holed as an anarchist, a communist, a reactionary, a 'Guardianista', a hateful Turk .... my what a confused lot you are.

* Note for Oracle : this is irony.
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Postby Get Real! » Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:45 pm

CopperLine wrote:As any fule nose* Morning Star is not sold on street corners - that's Socialist Worker :roll:


Get Real - so in a matter of a few posts I've been pigeon-holed as an anarchist, a communist, a reactionary, a 'Guardianista', a hateful Turk .... my what a confused lot you are.

Don’t get me wrong Copperline… there is a time and place for Anarchy but only a handful of very special individuals from the whole planet could possibly abide by the lack of community rules “lawfully” and do the ideology any justice… are you one such individual? 8)
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Postby Get Real! » Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:54 pm

On topic:

I see no reason why a law abiding citizen would get persecuted so I’m afraid I cannot support asylum seekers as they are most likely running away from a problem they have brought upon themselves.
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Postby Oracle » Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:02 pm

CopperLine wrote:As any fule nose* Morning Star is not sold on street corners - that's Socialist Worker :roll:


Get Real - so in a matter of a few posts I've been pigeon-holed as an anarchist, a communist, a reactionary, a 'Guardianista', a hateful Turk .... my what a confused lot you are.

* Note for Oracle : this is irony.


Since I am not a fule, I realise yet again your tendencies to take things so literally is just further evidence of your manifest condition!

Glad to see you moved up from selling "The Big Issue" to "Socialist Worker" then .... :lol:
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Postby tessintrnc » Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:23 pm

Get Real! wrote:On topic:

I see no reason why a law abiding citizen would get persecuted so I’m afraid I cannot support asylum seekers as they are most likely running away from a problem they have brought upon themselves.


I cannot agree with that GR :

[i]Every person has the right to live free from persecution, or the fear of persecution, based on their race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion. Though every government is obligated to provide this right, many fail. Every year millions of people face persecution for traits they cannot control or exercising their religious or political beliefs. When governments fail to protect these rights, people have the right to move to a country that will protect them. This is the right to asylum[/i].

Do you not think that we owe it to these people as fellow human beings to protect their basic human rights? Also, what about the Jewish holocaust? Those that fled rather than go to the death camps, what if they were turned away from nazi free countries? Did they bring death and madness down on themselves?
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Last edited by tessintrnc on Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby CopperLine » Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:24 pm

Get Real! wrote:On topic:

I see no reason why a law abiding citizen would get persecuted so I’m afraid I cannot support asylum seekers as they are most likely running away from a problem they have brought upon themselves.


Holy shit !!! That takes the biscuit.

Take your pick of the following Get Real :

Another Officer Admits They Knew Dink Would Be Murdered

After petty officers Şimşek and Şahin, who are on trial for negligence in Dink’s murder, and Aslan and Erdoğan, whose statements were taken as witnesses, Captain Yıldız also says that Colonel Öz knew about Dink’s murder.

In accordance with the investigation into the negligence of Trabzon gendarmerie authorities in Hrant Dink’s murder, Trabzon Criminal Court heard Captain Metin Yıldız’ testimony. He too accused his superior Trabzon Gendermarie Commander Colonel Ali Öz.

Captain Yıldız told in his statement at Bolu Criminal Court on June 9 that “We conveyed the information that Yasin Hayal had been planning a murder to Ali Öz a year before it occurred.”
Cinmen: Öz was the most senior officer among them and he did not take precautions

Ergin Cinmen, one of Dink’s lawyers, who witnessed the disposition together with the lawyer Hakan Bakırcıoğlu, stated that Yıldız expressed words proving that he was aware of the warnings and that this information was conveyed to Ali Öz both directly and while he was in a meeting with other gendarmerie personnel.

Finding these statements “very important”, Cinmen made the following explanation to Bianet: The most senior officer in Trabzon was Öz. Even though the Gendarmerie had known the murder a year before it occurred, it turned up that he did not do anything.”
Yıldız: I told Colonel Öz a year before the murder

By saying that they received the initial information in summer of 2006, Yıldız confirmed the statements that were taken from the other officers who had told that the intelligence received from the gendarmerie informant Coşkun İğci, who was also Hayal’s brother-in-law, was discussed during a meeting of the gendarmerie authorities.

“I told my commander Öz that the staff on duty had informed me that Yasin Hayal who planted a bomb at McDonalds in 2004 was making plans to kill the journalist Hrant Dink who lived in İstanbul. After listening to me, he told me that we would discuss this matter later and then we ended the meeting.”

Öz added that he reminded the subject to Öz again two days later when he was called to his office to present the daily work and then, on January 19, 2007, he watched the murder on TV.
Both the defendants and the witnesses blamed Öz

During their depositions at the 2nd Criminal Court of Peace of Trabzon on March 20, chief master sergeant Okan Şimşek and master sergeant Veysel Şahin told that they had received the information that Dink was going to be murdered from Coşkun İğci and conveyed it to the Gendarmerie Regiment Commander Colonel Ali Öz.

Following this, Trabzon 2nd Criminal Court of Peace asked on March 20 for the statements to be taken from Ali Öz, Hüseyin Yılmaz, Metin Yıldız, Ali Oğuz Çağlar, Hüsamettin Polat, Gazi Günay, Gökhan Aslan, Hacı Ömer Ünalır, Uğur Erdoğan ve Önder Aras.

Chief Master Sergeant Uğur Erdoğan, who gave his statement in Iğdır, said that he saw the accused petty officers Şimşek and Şahin collecting information about the newspaper Agos and Hrant Dink from the internet, and heard them saying that there really was a Hrant Dink and a newspaper named Agos.

Chief Master Sergeant Aslan, who gave his statement in Bitlis, said that during a conversation with each other a few days after the murder, the accused petty officers had mentioned that they had received the information that Hrant Dink was going to be murdered before the actual murder and that they had conveyed this information to their superiors. (EÖ/EZÖ/TB) [url]

http://www.bianet.org/english/kategori/ ... e-murdered[/url]



If Hrant Dink had applied for asylum then Get Real would have said "I see no reason why a law abiding citizen would get persecuted so I’m afraid I cannot support asylum seekers as they are most likely running away from a problem they have brought upon themselves." No asylum for Hrant Dink.


Or try this :

In August 2006, a women-led 'Campaign for Equality' was launched in the country. Since then, women's rights activists have suffered harassment, intimidation and imprisonment at the hands of the Iranian authorities. These are just a few examples of those risking their freedom to campaign for women's rights.

Black silhouetteRonal Safarzadeh is imprisoned without charge, without access to a lawyer. She was arrested at a meeting to collect signatures for the 'Campaign for Equality'. Her mother was reportedly beaten by judicial officials after trying to find out why her daughter was in prison.

Black silhouetteDelaram Ali was among 70 people arrested after a peaceful demonstration in June 2006 calling for an end to gender discrimination in Iran. Sentenced to imprisonment and 10 lashes, her punishment has been delayed while her case is reviewed, but she remains at risk of re-imprisonment.

Black silhouetteMahboubeh Abbasgholizadeh is facing imprisonment for protesting against the jailing of other women's rights activists.Because of her women's rights campaigning, she currently faces jail for 'illegal assembly [url]and collusion against national security'.

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/content.asp?CategoryID=11221[/url]



So if these women needed asylum Get Real would say "I see no reason why a law abiding citizen would get persecuted so I’m afraid I cannot support asylum seekers as they are most likely running away from a problem they have brought upon themselves."


Or try this :


Lords grant asylum to woman in fear of circumcision


A woman who feared she would be subjected to female circumcision if she was returned to Sierra Leone had her asylum appeal upheld by the law lords yesterday. The unanimous ruling by five law lords found that Zainab Fornah, 19, who fled Sierra Leone in 2003 aged 15, should be granted asylum because as a Sierra Leonean woman she belonged to a "particular social group" in danger of persecution under refugee law.

Immigration lawyers and refugee groups said last night that the decision to overturn a previous court of appeal ruling that she had insufficient grounds to claim refugee status was an important indication that "gender-based persecution" will be readily recognised as a valid basis for asylum under the UN refugee convention, alongside persecution on account of race, religion, nationality and political opinion.

One law lord, Lady Hale of Richmond, said the decision was significant for the "many other women in the world who flee similar fears". She said women were "just as worthy of the full protection of the refugee convention as are the men who flee persecution because of their dissident political views".

The judgment may prove relevant to female genital mutilation cases relating to other countries, as well other forms of gender persecution defended on the grounds that they constitute a "cultural" or "traditional" practice.

The Home Office must now grant asylum to Ms Fornah, who came to Britain after her family was killed and she was repeatedly raped by rebel soldiers in Sierra Leone. She was offered leave to remain on humanitarian grounds.

Her rejected asylum claim led to several appeals. Last year, two of three appeal court judges ruled against Ms Fornah, saying that the practice of female genital mutilation - "however repulsive to most societies outside Sierra Leone" - was accepted "as traditional and as part of the cultural life" in Sierra Leone.

Yesterday's decision, described by one law lord as "blindingly obvious", leaves no doubt that women in danger of female genital mutilation - a widespread practice in Sierra Leone which carries serious health risks, including death - belong to a persecuted group. Lord Bingham said women in Sierra Leone shared "a position of social inferiority as compared with men". Female circumcision "powerfully reinforces and expresses the inferior status of women as compared with men."

A Home Office spokesman said it recognised gender-related persecution. "We have put in place policy guidance and training for caseworkers to ensure that our processes are as accessible and sensitive to the needs of women as possible."

Anna Reisenberger, acting chief executive of the Refugee Council, welcomed the judgment, but said the case demonstrated the "severe difficulties" that refugees fleeing gender-based persecution have faced.

"We are dismayed that this woman's case had to go all the way to the House of Lords," she said.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/oct/19/lords.immigration



But Get Real says "I see no reason why a law abiding citizen would get persecuted so I’m afraid I cannot support asylum seekers as they are most likely running away from a problem they have brought upon themselves." In Get Real's world Ms Fornah lost her rights because, born a woman with a clitoris, she was running away from a problem she brought upon herself.

You beggar belief, Get Real. And you dare speak about human rights abuses !
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