Cyprus-Forum.com

[DT.]

I promised myself I wouldn;t ever use what happened to prove a point in the cyprus forum. The forum isn't worth it and neither are you.

[Piratis]

Then from that little seed we should grow a big and strong tree which will withstand all the natural and artificial forces which will be thrown at it

Bir, you talk as if the seed is irrelevant to what it will grow out of it. The seed is the most important thing. You put the seed of democracy and human rights, and what will grow out of it is peace, unity and prosperity. You put a seed of human rights violations, segregation and discrimination, and what will grow out of it is animosity, conflicts and bloodshed.

Please tell me in a practical way how you see a bad solution that will benefit TCs on our loss grow to somehting better? The TCs will one day come and say: "We don't want 50% of power and 30% of land anymore"? Please tell me you are kidding me Bir. That is never going to happen. Like you said the TCs don't care about what is just or fair, they care what is the best deal for themselves.

Bir excellent posts, I have to give credit where credit is due, your methodology is both clear and precise but unfortunately it fall on deaf ears, you cannot agree zilch with people who not see you as equals who do not want to share but only use their majority status to bash you into a pulp so that you disappear. I commend you on your patience and for reflecting the TCs viewpoint but in time maybe even now you have realized there is no way we can find common ground to find a solution.

VP, what Bir supports is a unitary state with equal citizens, democracy and human rights. He thinks that all these will grow from some bad "solution". Why don't you tell us VP that if we don't like it we should not sign it? Or you wait to say this the very next moment after we make the mistake and sing? We are not going to fall in that trap mate. Unfortunately for you we are not idiots.

[Oracle]

...My position is really very frustrating,and I am afraid I am taking it out on GR and Oracle...But they are asking for it....

Try wanting to see an end to Human Rights Violations in your own country, your compatriots to be able to return to their ancestral homes, your government having rightful control over your whole country, assurances that your thousands of years old history and Hellenic inheritance is not being eroded and replaced by Turkish idiosyncrasies, and removal of an invading army, and some safeguard that none of the history of bombings and invasions by Turkey will ever be repeated again ...

And don't tell me it is your country too, because the TCs do not want it as their country ... just another Turkish trophy I am afraid. another piece for Turkish Expansionism.

Your frustration comes from your people having half the island but being judged as criminals ... and you just want them to be accepted as just being victims of misfortune, and for some reason it is falling on deaf ears.

The ears aren't Deaf Bir ... it's just that people aren't stupid to believe such stuff as you recite...

We know the enemy too well and the world recognises the manner in which Turkey works.

[BirKibrisli]

Then from that little seed we should grow a big and strong tree which will withstand all the natural and artificial forces which will be thrown at it

Bir, you talk as if the seed is irrelevant to what it will grow out of it. The seed is the most important thing. You put the seed of democracy and human rights, and what will grow out of it is peace, unity and prosperity. You put a seed of human rights violations, segregation and discrimination, and what will grow out of it is animosity, conflicts and bloodshed.

Please tell me in a practical way how you see a bad solution that will benefit TCs on our loss grow to somehting better? The TCs will one day come and say: "We don't want 50% of power and 30% of land anymore"? Please tell me you are kidding me Bir. That is never going to happen. Like you said the TCs don't care about what is just or fair, they care what is the best deal for themselves.

Bir excellent posts, I have to give credit where credit is due, your methodology is both clear and precise but unfortunately it fall on deaf ears, you cannot agree zilch with people who not see you as equals who do not want to share but only use their majority status to bash you into a pulp so that you disappear. I commend you on your patience and for reflecting the TCs viewpoint but in time maybe even now you have realized there is no way we can find common ground to find a solution.

VP, what Bir supports is a unitary state with equal citizens, democracy and human rights. He thinks that all these will grow from some bad "solution". Why don't you tell us VP that if we don't like it we should not sign it? Or you wait to say this the very next moment after we make the mistake and sing? We are not going to fall in that trap mate. Unfortunately for you we are not idiots.

I agree Piratis,that if we could plant the seed you are talking about,things would be much better much quicker..But the people you need to plant this seed are not ready to do it...They want to plant another seed,let it grow a bit,and than bud a graft on it...This is the reality...We have to work with this...But I can see the problem very clearly now...Total lack of TRUST...Each side is very suspicious of the other's motives...We need a period of grieving and healing to get us out of the denial and anger and depression,and onto acceptance,forgiveness,and reconciliation...This is teh vital step which is missing in Cyprus...Without it we can talk about democracy,human rights,peace,justice..but none of it will come out way...

As long as we insist on apportioning blame,talking about who suffered most and longest,and as long as we fail to see the other side's pain and suffering,we will get nowhere...I am talking to both sides here...This is getting serious...We have a window of opportunity now to change things fundamentally,and allow for true democracy to emerge...The first practical step I would suggest is the establishment of a Truth and Reconciliation Commission....to acknowledge all the wrongs done,and allow people to grieve and heal after their horrible losses...And please don't make the mistake of thinking that the TCs pain and suffering is less than the GCs because they died in smaller numbers,or for a shorter time,or in the hand of their own people...There is an awful lot of denial happening on this Forum,denial to acknowledge one's own side's mistakes,and refusal to believe the pain and suffering of the other side...We are truly damned...I can see no way out of this unless we drastically change our attitudes and decide to give understanding and compassion a change....And I am not sure if most of us are mature enough to do this...

[BirKibrisli]

...My position is really very frustrating,and I am afraid I am taking it out on GR and Oracle...But they are asking for it....

Try wanting to see an end to Human Rights Violations in your own country, your compatriots to be able to return to their ancestral homes, your government having rightful control over your whole country, assurances that your thousands of years old history and Hellenic inheritance is not being eroded and replaced by Turkish idiosyncrasies, and removal of an invading army, and some safeguard that none of the history of bombings and invasions by Turkey will ever be repeated again ...

And don't tell me it is your country too, because the TCs do not want it as their country ... just another Turkish trophy I am afraid. another piece for Turkish Expansionism.

Your frustration comes from your people having half the island but being judged as criminals ... and you just want them to be accepted as just being victims of misfortune, and for some reason it is falling on deaf ears.

The ears aren't Deaf Bir ... it's just that people aren't stupid to believe such stuff as you recite...

We know the enemy too well and the world recognises the manner in which Turkey works.

Please read my answer to Piratis above,Oracle...
Nothing will happen as long as you refuse to see why and how we find ourselves in this situation...Denial of history might give you some sense of satisfaction and comfort but will do nothing for a solutiion...keep on accusing one side and turn a blind eye to all relevant incidents past and present,keep on with your blanket demonisation of one side,and they will just show you the finger,the middle one...It was disgraceful and heartless how you dismissed Muzzy's personal pain and suffering in another post (another thread?)...It made it crystal clear to me that you have nothing to offer towards a solution in Cyprus...I will not waste my breath in this thread any longer...

[Paphitis]

...My position is really very frustrating,and I am afraid I am taking it out on GR and Oracle...But they are asking for it....

Try wanting to see an end to Human Rights Violations in your own country, your compatriots to be able to return to their ancestral homes, your government having rightful control over your whole country, assurances that your thousands of years old history and Hellenic inheritance is not being eroded and replaced by Turkish idiosyncrasies, and removal of an invading army, and some safeguard that none of the history of bombings and invasions by Turkey will ever be repeated again ...

And don't tell me it is your country too, because the TCs do not want it as their country ... just another Turkish trophy I am afraid. another piece for Turkish Expansionism.

Your frustration comes from your people having half the island but being judged as criminals ... and you just want them to be accepted as just being victims of misfortune, and for some reason it is falling on deaf ears.

The ears aren't Deaf Bir ... it's just that people aren't stupid to believe such stuff as you recite...

We know the enemy too well and the world recognises the manner in which Turkey works.

Please read my answer to Piratis above,Oracle...
Nothing will happen as long as you refuse to see why and how we find ourselves in this situation...Denial of history might give you some sense of satisfaction and comfort but will do nothing for a solutiion...keep on accusing one side and turn a blind eye to all relevant incidents past and present,keep on with your blanket demonisation of one side,and they will just show you the finger,the middle one...It was disgraceful and heartless how you dismissed Muzzy's personal pain and suffering in another post (another thread?)...It made it crystal clear to me that you have nothing to offer towards a solution in Cyprus...I will not waste my breath in this thread any longer...

Bir, it is disappointing that you would jump to the defence of Muzzy70 of all people who had the audacity to post this in another thread.

Nice to know that there's a Turk having sex in your wife's former property !

This hardliner TC does not deserve any sympathy with his fabricated story which is either exaggerated ten fold or is 100% not true. I say that his story is not true because if it was true he would realise the pain of others who genuinely did suffer and not post insensitive rubbish such as what he has done.

He must also realise that if he is to post comments relating to other forum members loss of property or refer to their loved ones in such a disgraceful manner, then he should be willing to accept the same from those members. If you live by the sword you must be prepared to die by the sword. And as I have given other members some stick on this forum, I am only too willing to accept replies in kind, but there are certain things which are sacred and which I will never do. That is to rub salt in other members wounds by referring to their losses, whether it is property, a loved one in the war, or referring to their loved ones in such a disgraceful manner.

I would ask for an apology from Muzzy70 over this comment, but I do not believe he is MAN enough to do so. Therefore I will not ask because I know I will be disappointed.

Regards

[repulsewarrior]

i think that we can all agree that the best form of government is strong and Unitary. Cypriots need a Unitary Government, if we put Cyprus first. the State works best with its checks, and balances. In Cyprus, the defence of our Individual Rights are best protected without the bias which at present defines it.

"New Birth" requires two "founding partners". It requires Greek Cypriots to create for themselves a new government to represent their needs, not unlike their Turkish Cypriot counterpart, so that the State is Sovereign, and supreme while Individuals can sustain themselves as Persons in two (or more) National Assemblies, whose Jurisdiction is geographic over their internal affairs, as a sum of parts described as a Zone.

[BirKibrisli]

...My position is really very frustrating,and I am afraid I am taking it out on GR and Oracle...But they are asking for it....

Try wanting to see an end to Human Rights Violations in your own country, your compatriots to be able to return to their ancestral homes, your government having rightful control over your whole country, assurances that your thousands of years old history and Hellenic inheritance is not being eroded and replaced by Turkish idiosyncrasies, and removal of an invading army, and some safeguard that none of the history of bombings and invasions by Turkey will ever be repeated again ...

And don't tell me it is your country too, because the TCs do not want it as their country ... just another Turkish trophy I am afraid. another piece for Turkish Expansionism.

Your frustration comes from your people having half the island but being judged as criminals ... and you just want them to be accepted as just being victims of misfortune, and for some reason it is falling on deaf ears.

The ears aren't Deaf Bir ... it's just that people aren't stupid to believe such stuff as you recite...

We know the enemy too well and the world recognises the manner in which Turkey works.

Please read my answer to Piratis above,Oracle...
Nothing will happen as long as you refuse to see why and how we find ourselves in this situation...Denial of history might give you some sense of satisfaction and comfort but will do nothing for a solutiion...keep on accusing one side and turn a blind eye to all relevant incidents past and present,keep on with your blanket demonisation of one side,and they will just show you the finger,the middle one...It was disgraceful and heartless how you dismissed Muzzy's personal pain and suffering in another post (another thread?)...It made it crystal clear to me that you have nothing to offer towards a solution in Cyprus...I will not waste my breath in this thread any longer...

Bir, it is disappointing that you would jump to the defence of Muzzy70 of all people who had the audacity to post this in another thread.

Nice to know that there's a Turk having sex in your wife's former property !

This hardliner TC does not deserve any sympathy with his fabricated story which is either exaggerated ten fold or is 100% not true. I say that his story is not true because if it was true he would realise the pain of others who genuinely did suffer and not post insensitive rubbish such as what he has done.

He must also realise that if he is to post comments relating to other forum members loss of property or refer to their loved ones in such a disgraceful manner, then he should be willing to accept the same from those members. If you live by the sword you must be prepared to die by the sword. And as I have given other members some stick on this forum, I am only too willing to accept replies in kind, but there are certain things which are sacred and which I will never do. That is to rub salt in other members wounds by referring to their losses, whether it is property, a loved one in the war, or referring to their loved ones in such a disgraceful manner.

I would ask for an apology from Muzzy70 over this comment, but I do not believe he is MAN enough to do so. Therefore I will not ask because I know I will be disappointed.

Regards

I have seen little of what Muzzy has posted,Paphidis...I did not see the comment above,and of course that is reprehensible...I mostly respond to posts in a single thread,and not carry prejudices about people if at all possible...And I will admit it is impossible in some cases...

Muzzy's personal stories seemed genuine to me and his pain and anguish evident. I just hated the way his pain and suffering was brushed aside as if it didn't matter...I happen to believe that we must all start developing some understanding and compassion towards each other,otherwise another 3-4-5 generations of Cypriots will go trough the same misery the last few generations went through...Lets give Muzzy the benefit of the doubt...I know that those things he described ,and worse, did happened
on both sides,so let us show some respect to people's personal pain,and of course expect the same back for our own...

[BirKibrisli]

double post

[Oracle]

...My position is really very frustrating,and I am afraid I am taking it out on GR and Oracle...But they are asking for it....

Try wanting to see an end to Human Rights Violations in your own country, your compatriots to be able to return to their ancestral homes, your government having rightful control over your whole country, assurances that your thousands of years old history and Hellenic inheritance is not being eroded and replaced by Turkish idiosyncrasies, and removal of an invading army, and some safeguard that none of the history of bombings and invasions by Turkey will ever be repeated again ...

And don't tell me it is your country too, because the TCs do not want it as their country ... just another Turkish trophy I am afraid. another piece for Turkish Expansionism.

Your frustration comes from your people having half the island but being judged as criminals ... and you just want them to be accepted as just being victims of misfortune, and for some reason it is falling on deaf ears.

The ears aren't Deaf Bir ... it's just that people aren't stupid to believe such stuff as you recite...

We know the enemy too well and the world recognises the manner in which Turkey works.

Please read my answer to Piratis above,Oracle...
Nothing will happen as long as you refuse to see why and how we find ourselves in this situation...Denial of history might give you some sense of satisfaction and comfort but will do nothing for a solutiion...keep on accusing one side and turn a blind eye to all relevant incidents past and present,keep on with your blanket demonisation of one side,and they will just show you the finger,the middle one...It was disgraceful and heartless how you dismissed Muzzy's personal pain and suffering in another post (another thread?)...It made it crystal clear to me that you have nothing to offer towards a solution in Cyprus...I will not waste my breath in this thread any longer...

You are so full of contradictions because you say whatever suits you without sticking to what is right.

To Piratis above (as well as on many other occasions0 you said:

As long as we insist on apportioning blame,talking about who suffered most and longest,and as long as we fail to see the other side's pain and suffering,we will get nowhere...I am talking to both sides here...

And to me you complain that I am dismissive of the past when, all along I am trying to push forward the current situation as being unacceptable and wrong, and it is the current situation which has to be rectified ...

You don't like that argument.
That is when you defuse such reasoned requests with harking back to the past.

You are not happy with anything Bir just so long as you say something, whatever it may be, to deny whatever strong arguments we have for insisting it is the present situation we have to solve!

Because your real aim is to gain even more for your people .... you show no willingness to consider a JUST solution .....

You constant contradictions are making you a lost cause for debate .....