Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

And Piratis....thanks for your kind words about me to Oracle....
I truly see no point in discussing anything with her...If she can't look at our sorry history,and understand why the TCs are not able to assert themselves under the present circumstances,there is nothing I can do for her...What is the point of accusing the victims of domestic violence or sexual abuse????Expecting them to miraculously find the willpower to overturn their oppression all by themselves???? This is what she is demanding of the TCs...I said all along,the TCs have nowhere else to turn but to the GCs for help and support...If this support is not forthcoming their only option is to be assimilated with Turkey...I am not proud to say so,put that is the fact of the matter...No amount of mental-masturbation on Oracles's part will change it...

Bir, all Cypriots have been victims, with Greek Cypriots being the ones victimized for the longest periods.

The GCs can accept "interim solutions" in order to help re-integrate the TCs in one united country, but at the same time the TCs should start realizing that the gains on our loss that have been offered to them since the 50s by UK and Turkey, are not their rights, but are the elements of the divide and rule game played against Cyprus. If they continue to play the divide and rule game expecting all those gains, then there is really no chance for unity or peace regardless of what we will do (short of giving up our human and democratic rights, which we might be able to put on hold for a few years, but we are definitely not going to give them up).

Are you now volunteering to suspend our need for Human Rights until that time as the TCs have found a way to achieve all their demands to their satisfaction? Because Piratis, I used to believe you said Rights are not negotiable!

The fact we do not have them is not because we can live without them, even for an interim for the TCs to "mature"! We do not have them, not because they are expendable to us since we are a Superhuman race that can live denied of these Rights and still flourish unperturbed.

No Piratis, we did not in a moment of madness decide to experiment living without "Rights" voluntarily! It is because they are denied to us from the Occupation by Turkey of our territory. Hence, the reason we are the victims of this conflict. Turkey denies us our Human Rights, right now (let alone what abuses she enacted to achieve her goal).

So for Bir, you can generously wave a magic wand and have us not be "victims" of Human Rights violations, because it is for an interim period, just until the TCs are happy to agree to a solution.

Are the TCs denied any Human Rights by us, or our actions? ... No, I do not think so. Do the TCs suffer discomfort through being denied Human Rights by us? ... No, I don't think so.

So what pressure would they be under to slowly get used to a change and accept a solution? whilst we live "comfortably" without Human Rights, waiting. Moral? No, none Piratis! They are under no pressure, other than increasing greed due to diminishing resources. These "resources" that they plundered from the 200,000 refugees, and not through their humanly efforts.

Yes, the "suffering" is on now for the TC "victims", because they need more of the goodies we can give them.

So let's replenish their goodies, so that we can have our Human Rights back ..... Negotiable Rights? ... I used to think not!

Perhaps Oracle can tell us , in not so many words but to the point , how she advocates going forward and finding a just solution to our predicament. We all know about the 200 thousand refugees , we are aware that part of our island , which belongs to all Cyprus not only the G/Cs , is under Turkish occupation , what we want to know is her views on how to A. unite our Island , B. Remove the occupying troops , C.Deal with the thousands of settlers and D. Deal with the property issue.
(Would she kindly refrain from quoting the nonsense posted by GR on how to move ahead ie strike deep into Turkey , mercenaries to help us etc etc.)

Sorry Miltiades your request has nothing to do with the above; neither did I even mention any of the stuff you want expanded.

I think Piratis has opened an important thread to dissect the minutiae of a solution to finally get Turkey off our backs.

Don't sabotage. Ask me elsewhere. (Besides, have very little time for forum today!)

[denizaksulu]

And Piratis....thanks for your kind words about me to Oracle....
I truly see no point in discussing anything with her...If she can't look at our sorry history,and understand why the TCs are not able to assert themselves under the present circumstances,there is nothing I can do for her...What is the point of accusing the victims of domestic violence or sexual abuse????Expecting them to miraculously find the willpower to overturn their oppression all by themselves???? This is what she is demanding of the TCs...I said all along,the TCs have nowhere else to turn but to the GCs for help and support...If this support is not forthcoming their only option is to be assimilated with Turkey...I am not proud to say so,put that is the fact of the matter...No amount of mental-masturbation on Oracles's part will change it...

Bir, all Cypriots have been victims, with Greek Cypriots being the ones victimized for the longest periods.

The GCs can accept "interim solutions" in order to help re-integrate the TCs in one united country, but at the same time the TCs should start realizing that the gains on our loss that have been offered to them since the 50s by UK and Turkey, are not their rights, but are the elements of the divide and rule game played against Cyprus. If they continue to play the divide and rule game expecting all those gains, then there is really no chance for unity or peace regardless of what we will do (short of giving up our human and democratic rights, which we might be able to put on hold for a few years, but we are definitely not going to give them up).

Are you now volunteering to suspend our need for Human Rights until that time as the TCs have found a way to achieve all their demands to their satisfaction? Because Piratis, I used to believe you said Rights are not negotiable!

The fact we do not have them is not because we can live without them, even for an interim for the TCs to "mature"! We do not have them, not because they are expendable to us since we are a Superhuman race that can live denied of these Rights and still flourish unperturbed.

No Piratis, we did not in a moment of madness decide to experiment living without "Rights" voluntarily! It is because they are denied to us from the Occupation by Turkey of our territory. Hence, the reason we are the victims of this conflict. Turkey denies us our Human Rights, right now (let alone what abuses she enacted to achieve her goal).

So for Bir, you can generously wave a magic wand and have us not be "victims" of Human Rights violations, because it is for an interim period, just until the TCs are happy to agree to a solution.

Are the TCs denied any Human Rights by us, or our actions? ... No, I do not think so. Do the TCs suffer discomfort through being denied Human Rights by us? ... No, I don't think so.

So what pressure would they be under to slowly get used to a change and accept a solution? whilst we live "comfortably" without Human Rights, waiting. Moral? No, none Piratis! They are under no pressure, other than increasing greed due to diminishing resources. These "resources" that they plundered from the 200,000 refugees, and not through their humanly efforts.

Yes, the "suffering" is on now for the TC "victims", because they need more of the goodies we can give them.

So let's replenish their goodies, so that we can have our Human Rights back ..... Negotiable Rights? ... I used to think not!

Perhaps Oracle can tell us , in not so many words but to the point , how she advocates going forward and finding a just solution to our predicament. We all know about the 200 thousand refugees , we are aware that part of our island , which belongs to all Cyprus not only the G/Cs , is under Turkish occupation , what we want to know is her views on how to A. unite our Island , B. Remove the occupying troops , C.Deal with the thousands of settlers and D. Deal with the property issue.
(Would she kindly refrain from quoting the nonsense posted by GR on how to move ahead ie strike deep into Turkey , mercenaries to help us etc etc.)

Good morning my friend Miltiades. Providing our 'Lady O' manages a 'workable' answer, I will pop over to our 'Social Club' to discuss her proposals.

Anytime Deniz , I start at 11 am this morning.
As for Birs statement "...What is the point of accusing the victims of domestic violence or sexual abuse????Expecting them to miraculously find the willpower to overturn their oppression all by themselves???? This is what she is demanding of the TCs...I said all along,the TCs have nowhere else to turn but to the GCs for help and support...
I'm surprised at Os perception of this metaphor that Bir used .
IT WAS METAPHORICALY USED ORACLE , HE WAS NOT REFFERING TO THE T/Cs being the victims of domestic violence !!!

At times, I suspect that she fails in her astuteness. I sense that it is that time of the 'life cycle'. Bir's prob is he is too much of a gentleman. He needs to 'ram it in'. Dobra dobra. I hope she is no 'masochist'.

[Piratis]

And Piratis....thanks for your kind words about me to Oracle....
I truly see no point in discussing anything with her...If she can't look at our sorry history,and understand why the TCs are not able to assert themselves under the present circumstances,there is nothing I can do for her...What is the point of accusing the victims of domestic violence or sexual abuse????Expecting them to miraculously find the willpower to overturn their oppression all by themselves???? This is what she is demanding of the TCs...I said all along,the TCs have nowhere else to turn but to the GCs for help and support...If this support is not forthcoming their only option is to be assimilated with Turkey...I am not proud to say so,put that is the fact of the matter...No amount of mental-masturbation on Oracles's part will change it...

Bir, all Cypriots have been victims, with Greek Cypriots being the ones victimized for the longest periods.

The GCs can accept "interim solutions" in order to help re-integrate the TCs in one united country, but at the same time the TCs should start realizing that the gains on our loss that have been offered to them since the 50s by UK and Turkey, are not their rights, but are the elements of the divide and rule game played against Cyprus. If they continue to play the divide and rule game expecting all those gains, then there is really no chance for unity or peace regardless of what we will do (short of giving up our human and democratic rights, which we might be able to put on hold for a few years, but we are definitely not going to give them up).

Are you now volunteering to suspend our need for Human Rights until that time as the TCs have found a way to achieve all their demands to their satisfaction? Because Piratis, I used to believe you said Rights are not negotiable!

The fact we do not have them is not because we can live without them, even for an interim for the TCs to "mature"! We do not have them, not because they are expendable to us since we are a Superhuman race that can live denied of these Rights and still flourish unperturbed.

No Piratis, we did not in a moment of madness decide to experiment living without "Rights" voluntarily! It is because they are denied to us from the Occupation by Turkey of our territory. Hence, the reason we are the victims of this conflict. Turkey denies us our Human Rights, right now (let alone what abuses she enacted to achieve her goal).

So for Bir, you can generously wave a magic wand and have us not be "victims" of Human Rights violations, because it is for an interim period, just until the TCs are happy to agree to a solution.

Are the TCs denied any Human Rights by us, or our actions? ... No, I do not think so. Do the TCs suffer discomfort through being denied Human Rights by us? ... No, I don't think so.

So what pressure would they be under to slowly get used to a change and accept a solution? whilst we live "comfortably" without Human Rights, waiting. Moral? No, none Piratis! They are under no pressure, other than increasing greed due to diminishing resources. These "resources" that they plundered from the 200,000 refugees, and not through their humanly efforts.

Yes, the "suffering" is on now for the TC "victims", because they need more of the goodies we can give them.

So let's replenish their goodies, so that we can have our Human Rights back ..... Negotiable Rights? ... I used to think not!

Oracle, the aim here is a true solution the soonest possible.

There is no kind of solution where we will sign one minute and the next minute all of our refugees will be at their homes and all of our rights restored to the 100%. That is simply not possible.

Yes, agreeing to put on hold some of our human and democratic rights for a specific time period is indeed a compromise. And yes you are right that the TCs would not be required to make similar kind of compromise.

Nobody likes to make compromises, but I would accept them if (1) They are on non fundamental issues, or (2) if the only temporary.

The main question to ask is: Will in the end of this process have a true solution? If the answer is "yes", then why not? If for example this process would be to last 15 years after which we would all have what is fair and just, would you reject it? Do you have somehting else to offer that would give us back our rights in a shorter period?

[Oracle]

And Piratis....thanks for your kind words about me to Oracle....
I truly see no point in discussing anything with her...If she can't look at our sorry history,and understand why the TCs are not able to assert themselves under the present circumstances,there is nothing I can do for her...What is the point of accusing the victims of domestic violence or sexual abuse????Expecting them to miraculously find the willpower to overturn their oppression all by themselves???? This is what she is demanding of the TCs...I said all along,the TCs have nowhere else to turn but to the GCs for help and support...If this support is not forthcoming their only option is to be assimilated with Turkey...I am not proud to say so,put that is the fact of the matter...No amount of mental-masturbation on Oracles's part will change it...

Bir, all Cypriots have been victims, with Greek Cypriots being the ones victimized for the longest periods.

The GCs can accept "interim solutions" in order to help re-integrate the TCs in one united country, but at the same time the TCs should start realizing that the gains on our loss that have been offered to them since the 50s by UK and Turkey, are not their rights, but are the elements of the divide and rule game played against Cyprus. If they continue to play the divide and rule game expecting all those gains, then there is really no chance for unity or peace regardless of what we will do (short of giving up our human and democratic rights, which we might be able to put on hold for a few years, but we are definitely not going to give them up).

Are you now volunteering to suspend our need for Human Rights until that time as the TCs have found a way to achieve all their demands to their satisfaction? Because Piratis, I used to believe you said Rights are not negotiable!

The fact we do not have them is not because we can live without them, even for an interim for the TCs to "mature"! We do not have them, not because they are expendable to us since we are a Superhuman race that can live denied of these Rights and still flourish unperturbed.

No Piratis, we did not in a moment of madness decide to experiment living without "Rights" voluntarily! It is because they are denied to us from the Occupation by Turkey of our territory. Hence, the reason we are the victims of this conflict. Turkey denies us our Human Rights, right now (let alone what abuses she enacted to achieve her goal).

So for Bir, you can generously wave a magic wand and have us not be "victims" of Human Rights violations, because it is for an interim period, just until the TCs are happy to agree to a solution.

Are the TCs denied any Human Rights by us, or our actions? ... No, I do not think so. Do the TCs suffer discomfort through being denied Human Rights by us? ... No, I don't think so.

So what pressure would they be under to slowly get used to a change and accept a solution? whilst we live "comfortably" without Human Rights, waiting. Moral? No, none Piratis! They are under no pressure, other than increasing greed due to diminishing resources. These "resources" that they plundered from the 200,000 refugees, and not through their humanly efforts.

Yes, the "suffering" is on now for the TC "victims", because they need more of the goodies we can give them.

So let's replenish their goodies, so that we can have our Human Rights back ..... Negotiable Rights? ... I used to think not!

Oracle, the aim here is a true solution the soonest possible.

There is no kind of solution where we will sign one minute and the next minute all of our refugees will be at their homes and all of our rights restored to the 100%. That is simply not possible.

Yes, agreeing to put on hold some of our human and democratic rights for a specific time period is indeed a compromise. And yes you are right that the TCs would not be required to make similar kind of compromise.

Nobody likes to make compromises, but I would accept them if (1) They are on non fundamental issues, or (2) if the only temporary.

The main question to ask is: Will in the end of this process have a true solution? If the answer is "yes", then why not? If for example this process would be to last 15 years after which we would all have what is fair and just, would you reject it? Do you have somehting else to offer that would give us back our rights in a shorter period?

A compromise I can make. A second compromise I have to consider based on what the first concession has achieved.

The return of our Human Rights is what we are negotiating for, so how can they be part of what we agree to give up ... even for short while. It doesn't make sense.

Our continuing loss of Human Rights is the reason we need a solution.

We agree our Human Rights are already compromised or conceded as a result of being the victims of Turkish occupation.

In that case what more are we supposed to concede as a compromise towards a solution if these are already taken?

Is it just our acceptance that we don't complain about this loss whilst we prepare for a solution ?... because something that is already compromised cannot be compromised again ... unless it is further compromised. This is the second compromise (at least) that we are being asked towards negotiating a solution for the same problem...

So it stand to reason, they want us to give more.

So which "more" of these Human and Democratic Rights are yet remaining as disposable then Piratis, to give up for this "interim" on top of the ones we have already given up?

See Piratis, they already have our Human Rights, what are they doing with them? Are they making them happier to give us a solution? ...

So why do they want more of our Human Rights? .... because giving them more in the way of an acceptance of buying their "temporary" interim time is another violation, a blackmail for us to also accept to be silent, i.e. a further loss of freedom of the Right to object to the loss (pertaining to Freedom of Speech).

A compromise is about give-and-take as an adjustment ..... they have interpreted it as we give and they take ...

So basically Human Rights are not part of the negotiating tools, as you always used to argue in the past. Otherwise the principle of Human Rights is abused.

Something else perhaps, we can give them, to buy back our Rights?

[Viewpoint]

And Piratis....thanks for your kind words about me to Oracle....
I truly see no point in discussing anything with her...If she can't look at our sorry history,and understand why the TCs are not able to assert themselves under the present circumstances,there is nothing I can do for her...What is the point of accusing the victims of domestic violence or sexual abuse????Expecting them to miraculously find the willpower to overturn their oppression all by themselves???? This is what she is demanding of the TCs...I said all along,the TCs have nowhere else to turn but to the GCs for help and support...If this support is not forthcoming their only option is to be assimilated with Turkey...I am not proud to say so,put that is the fact of the matter...No amount of mental-masturbation on Oracles's part will change it...

Bir, all Cypriots have been victims, with Greek Cypriots being the ones victimized for the longest periods.

The GCs can accept "interim solutions" in order to help re-integrate the TCs in one united country, but at the same time the TCs should start realizing that the gains on our loss that have been offered to them since the 50s by UK and Turkey, are not their rights, but are the elements of the divide and rule game played against Cyprus. If they continue to play the divide and rule game expecting all those gains, then there is really no chance for unity or peace regardless of what we will do (short of giving up our human and democratic rights, which we might be able to put on hold for a few years, but we are definitely not going to give them up).

Are you now volunteering to suspend our need for Human Rights until that time as the TCs have found a way to achieve all their demands to their satisfaction? Because Piratis, I used to believe you said Rights are not negotiable!

The fact we do not have them is not because we can live without them, even for an interim for the TCs to "mature"! We do not have them, not because they are expendable to us since we are a Superhuman race that can live denied of these Rights and still flourish unperturbed.

No Piratis, we did not in a moment of madness decide to experiment living without "Rights" voluntarily! It is because they are denied to us from the Occupation by Turkey of our territory. Hence, the reason we are the victims of this conflict. Turkey denies us our Human Rights, right now (let alone what abuses she enacted to achieve her goal).

So for Bir, you can generously wave a magic wand and have us not be "victims" of Human Rights violations, because it is for an interim period, just until the TCs are happy to agree to a solution.

Are the TCs denied any Human Rights by us, or our actions? ... No, I do not think so. Do the TCs suffer discomfort through being denied Human Rights by us? ... No, I don't think so.

So what pressure would they be under to slowly get used to a change and accept a solution? whilst we live "comfortably" without Human Rights, waiting. Moral? No, none Piratis! They are under no pressure, other than increasing greed due to diminishing resources. These "resources" that they plundered from the 200,000 refugees, and not through their humanly efforts.

Yes, the "suffering" is on now for the TC "victims", because they need more of the goodies we can give them.

So let's replenish their goodies, so that we can have our Human Rights back ..... Negotiable Rights? ... I used to think not!

Oracle, the aim here is a true solution the soonest possible.

There is no kind of solution where we will sign one minute and the next minute all of our refugees will be at their homes and all of our rights restored to the 100%. That is simply not possible.

Yes, agreeing to put on hold some of our human and democratic rights for a specific time period is indeed a compromise. And yes you are right that the TCs would not be required to make similar kind of compromise.

Nobody likes to make compromises, but I would accept them if (1) They are on non fundamental issues, or (2) if the only temporary.

The main question to ask is: Will in the end of this process have a true solution? If the answer is "yes", then why not? If for example this process would be to last 15 years after which we would all have what is fair and just, would you reject it? Do you have somehting else to offer that would give us back our rights in a shorter period?

A compromise I can make. A second compromise I have to consider based on what the first concession has achieved.

The return of our Human Rights is what we are negotiating for, so how can they be part of what we agree to give up ... even for short while. It doesn't make sense.

Our continuing loss of Human Rights is the reason we need a solution.

We agree our Human Rights are already compromised or conceded as a result of being the victims of Turkish occupation.

In that case what more are we supposed to concede as a compromise towards a solution if these are already taken?

Is it just our acceptance that we don't complain about this loss whilst we prepare for a solution ?... because something that is already compromised cannot be compromised again ... unless it is further compromised. This is the second compromise (at least) that we are being asked towards negotiating a solution for the same problem...

So it stand to reason, they want us to give more.

So which "more" of these Human and Democratic Rights are yet remaining as disposable then Piratis, to give up for this "interim" on top of the ones we have already given up?

See Piratis, they already have our Human Rights, what are they doing with them? Are they making them happier to give us a solution? ...

So why do they want more of our Human Rights? .... because giving them more in the way of an acceptance of buying their "temporary" interim time is another violation, a blackmail for us to also accept to be silent, i.e. a further loss of freedom of the Right to object to the loss (pertaining to Freedom of Speech).

A compromise is about give-and-take as an adjustment ..... they have interpreted it as we give and they take ...

So basically Human Rights are not part of the negotiating tools, as you always used to argue in the past. Otherwise the principle of Human Rights is abused.

Something else perhaps, we can give them, to buy back our Rights?

Everyone has to concede and compromise for their past mistakes, GCs are no acception as it is their actions that have lead us to division.

[DT.]

WHat exactly is the tc side conceding and compromising on?

[Viewpoint]

WHat exactly is the tc side conceding and compromising on?

That we have to trust GCs, dissolve our safe haven, telling the army to go, become refugees yet again, risk being assimilated, come to mind.

[denizaksulu]

WHat exactly is the tc side conceding and compromising on?

That we have to trust GCs, dissolve our safe haven, telling the army to go, become refugees yet again, risk being assimilated, come to mind.

Could you please explain to me what "risk being assimilated" means to you. I have had so many definitions as I am beginning to think that some people havent got a clue as to its meaning. (You, not included, as yet).

As to the other compromises, I am in agreement with you.

[Oracle]

[I'm surprised at Os perception of this metaphor that Bir used .
IT WAS METAPHORICALY USED ORACLE , HE WAS NOT REFFERING TO THE T/Cs being the victims of domestic violence !!!

Is there no end to the diminution in the level of your comprehension

Fully aware of the metaphor thank you, hence why my answer centred on the "victim" label and not on "domestic violence" ...

Now quit trying to act clever and go back to being a "Diplomat"...

[BirKibrisli]

And Piratis....thanks for your kind words about me to Oracle....
I truly see no point in discussing anything with her...If she can't look at our sorry history,and understand why the TCs are not able to assert themselves under the present circumstances,there is nothing I can do for her...What is the point of accusing the victims of domestic violence or sexual abuse????Expecting them to miraculously find the willpower to overturn their oppression all by themselves???? This is what she is demanding of the TCs...I said all along,the TCs have nowhere else to turn but to the GCs for help and support...If this support is not forthcoming their only option is to be assimilated with Turkey...I am not proud to say so,put that is the fact of the matter...No amount of mental-masturbation on Oracles's part will change it...

Bir, all Cypriots have been victims, with Greek Cypriots being the ones victimized for the longest periods.

The GCs can accept "interim solutions" in order to help re-integrate the TCs in one united country, but at the same time the TCs should start realizing that the gains on our loss that have been offered to them since the 50s by UK and Turkey, are not their rights, but are the elements of the divide and rule game played against Cyprus. If they continue to play the divide and rule game expecting all those gains, then there is really no chance for unity or peace regardless of what we will do (short of giving up our human and democratic rights, which we might be able to put on hold for a few years, but we are definitely not going to give them up).

The biggest fear the average TC seems to have is still that of physical security...followed by the fear of discrimination and pressure to assimilate into a Hellenic Cyprus...The interim solution needs to address these two fears,else the TCs will not accept it...right or wrong this is the reality we are facing,Piratis...They are the reason why I get so frustrated with GR and Oracle and their endless attacks on the TCs...Which is resulting in the rigidification of the already firm TC fears regarding the GC intentions...

It is true that the GCs suffered longer than the TCs and in greater numbers...This is largely due to historical factors of course. If you consider that the GCs have been flourishing in the South since 1974,and the fact that the TCs are fast becoming extinct in their own country,I as a TC feel that the so-called "liberation" of the TCs has been nothing less than disastrous for them...The number of TCs who have gained on GC losses are minuscule when compared with the number of TCs who have lost outright and had to look elsewhere for a future... The interim solution will have to satisfy their reservations as well,so the can feel confident to return to Cyprus and be proud and happy of their place in the community of Cypriots facing a bright future...