Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

Oracle, Bir is better than most, better than me in many respects, and he doesn't need to associate himself with anybody. You are blinded by your racism and you are just playing word games with no essence.

It is clear why Bir and a few others are indeed in a better position:
1) His intelligence is obviously higher than average
2) He is a Cypriot Humanist and not a Turkish nationalist
3) He has no financial or other interests from the partition of the island as many other TCs have
4) He had personal experiences with GCs and he knows that GCs are not the "evils" that TCs are brainwashed to believe.

He doesn't think lowly of the TCs, he just knows that the 5 points I mentioned above are not true for many TCs, and he also knows that currently the TCs are totally under the control of Ankara, so he is trying to figure out some sort of solution that will help bring the rest of the TCs closer to his views.

It’s obvious that the TC community is basking in the spoils of Turkish plunder so to assume that a “nice man” will convince them out of crime is nothing less than naïve.

Where did I say that a "nice man will convince them"? What I said is that Bir wants some sort of solution that will allow TCs to gradually change so they will be able to accept what I and him believe is the true solution to the Cyprus problem. I don't know what that kind of "interim solution" can be, and I am sure he doesn't know either. But at least he wants to use the forum for a useful discussion that maybe will have some positive idea coming out of it, rather than just talking bullshit all day.

It’s a proven fact that if someone can get away with a crime they will commit it. What the TCs need is a HEAVY HAND in the form of extreme pressure and international exposure. They have been allowed to hide behind Turkey and thus acquitted of THEIR responsibilities for far too long, and this has encouraged their ignorance and intransigence. They are as much to blame as Turkey for post 74 actions.

Right. And for that to happen we need the change in the balance of power. With Bir we are debating whether it is possible to have a solution without the need for the balance of power to change. Personally I don't think is possible, but I am open to ideas.

The important thing is to have a common aim. If the aim is different, like it is mine and Viewpoints aim, then any sort of discussions are totally useless. There is no point of discussing the how you will go somewhere when you don't even agree on where you should go.

But with Bir we agree on what the aim is, and therefore we can discuss the various possible routes.

People expect Turkey to do the right thing by Cyprus even though Turkey is a FOREIGN country and couldn’t care less about Cyprus, yet nobody is asking the Turkish Cypriots who PROFESS to be “Cypriots” why THEY are doing everything they can to PROLONG this mess on Cyprus at the expense of their “compatriots”!

Let us not kid ourselves anymore…those TC members who profess to be “moderates” or whatever they want to call themselves, should start querying their people’s actions instead of just remaining silent or posting hollow messages of goodwill!

It’s high time these “moderates” started re-evaluating THEIR contribution to the prolonging of this mess with their soft approach that only encourages TC acquittal from any responsibility.

Is that what you did from 1963 to 1974?

[Get Real!]

People expect Turkey to do the right thing by Cyprus even though Turkey is a FOREIGN country and couldn’t care less about Cyprus, yet nobody is asking the Turkish Cypriots who PROFESS to be “Cypriots” why THEY are doing everything they can to PROLONG this mess on Cyprus at the expense of their “compatriots”!

Let us not kid ourselves anymore…those TC members who profess to be “moderates” or whatever they want to call themselves, should start querying their people’s actions instead of just remaining silent or posting hollow messages of goodwill!

It’s high time these “moderates” started re-evaluating THEIR contribution to the prolonging of this mess with their soft approach that only encourages TC acquittal from any responsibility.

Is that what you did from 1963 to 1974?

Huh?

[Viewpoint]

People expect Turkey to do the right thing by Cyprus even though Turkey is a FOREIGN country and couldn’t care less about Cyprus, yet nobody is asking the Turkish Cypriots who PROFESS to be “Cypriots” why THEY are doing everything they can to PROLONG this mess on Cyprus at the expense of their “compatriots”!

Let us not kid ourselves anymore…those TC members who profess to be “moderates” or whatever they want to call themselves, should start querying their people’s actions instead of just remaining silent or posting hollow messages of goodwill!

It’s high time these “moderates” started re-evaluating THEIR contribution to the prolonging of this mess with their soft approach that only encourages TC acquittal from any responsibility.

Is that what you did from 1963 to 1974?

Huh?

Why did the GCs stay silent during our suffering?

[Piratis]

And Piratis....thanks for your kind words about me to Oracle....
I truly see no point in discussing anything with her...If she can't look at our sorry history,and understand why the TCs are not able to assert themselves under the present circumstances,there is nothing I can do for her...What is the point of accusing the victims of domestic violence or sexual abuse????Expecting them to miraculously find the willpower to overturn their oppression all by themselves???? This is what she is demanding of the TCs...I said all along,the TCs have nowhere else to turn but to the GCs for help and support...If this support is not forthcoming their only option is to be assimilated with Turkey...I am not proud to say so,put that is the fact of the matter...No amount of mental-masturbation on Oracles's part will change it...

Bir, all Cypriots have been victims, with Greek Cypriots being the ones victimized for the longest periods.

The GCs can accept "interim solutions" in order to help re-integrate the TCs in one united country, but at the same time the TCs should start realizing that the gains on our loss that have been offered to them since the 50s by UK and Turkey, are not their rights, but are the elements of the divide and rule game played against Cyprus. If they continue to play the divide and rule game expecting all those gains, then there is really no chance for unity or peace regardless of what we will do (short of giving up our human and democratic rights, which we might be able to put on hold for a few years, but we are definitely not going to give them up).

[Piratis]

I am also talking about solutions Bir, and not mere agreements that will only make our problem worst.

As I said a real solution can not be far from what I described above. There really isn't any alternative to human rights and democracy. The details of the system can be negotiated, but the principles of a true solution can not.

Instead of waisting our time looking for something that does not exist and perpetuate our problem with new problematic agreements, we should simply concentrate our efforts in achieving a real solution.

If and when a solution is achieved is something that only time will show, but the earlier we start working for a solution the better.

Fine,Piratis...The real solution according to you and me is a unitary state based on democratic principles and human rights...But you and I cannot really affect an agreement between the two communities...Those who can will have nothing less than a BBF based on political equality of the GCs and TCs...How are we going to get from here to our ideal "real" solution???

I disagree with you Bir. You and I can affect the agreement by refusing to accept some agreement that will not solve the Cyprus problem but make it worst and perpetuate it.

The first step in solving a problem is to recognize that there is a problem and identify what the problem exactly is.

Take the Kurds for example. Kurdistan is not a recognized entity, and for the international community there is no such problem as the "Turkish occupation of Kurdistan", and the Kurds have no international voice to fight for their rights.

In that respect Cyprus is far ahead of the Kurds in its struggle for freedom. The problem of illegal Turkish occupation of the north part of Cyprus is internationally recognized, and Cyprus has the international voice, and some small power within EU, to fight for justice.

If we accept some new agreement that will try to close (not solve) the Cyprus problem, then while our problem will remain the same, or even get worst, it will not be recognized as a problem by anybody anymore. Furthermore, by giving to Turkey the 50% power share of Cyprus with veto rights, it will mean that Cypriots will lose their international voice and will not be able to even complain.

I don't have the magic formula that can immediately solve the Cyprus problem under the current balance of power, but I know what we should and shouldn't do in order to avoid getting something worst and avoid making steps backwards in our struggle for freedom.

I see what you are getting at,Piratis...But you are not considering one thing....the status quo is also making it worse and perpetuating it...And the longer it lasts the worse it will get...With an interim solution we have at least a chance to work on the understanding,trust ands respect aspects...At least we might get a chance to de-brainwash the people,to give them the opportunity to work and live together even partly or on a part-time basis,in a realistic sloution environment...the status quo will only lead to another hot conflict,which is what I think we must avoid at all cost...An interim solution might just lead to our ideal solution,a long time down the line...

I agree what you say about the status quo but I am not sure about what "interim solution" you are talking about.

An "interim solution" would require several things:
1) It would have to be better than the status quo
2) It should be clear that it is interim with specific time frame (otherwise we will be hearing the "if you didn't like it you shouldn't have signed it" for the next 200 years)
3) It should be such that will promote unity so that at the end of this specific period we will indeed be ready to make the next step.

So yes, if we can agree on somehting that will not be the final solution but it will be a step forward then I would agree. But so far what is proposed not only is not a solution, but it is a big step backwards as I explained earlier.

Unlike you,Piratis,I think that anything is better than the status quo...But I am looking at it from my unique TC viewpoint....The interim solution I will accept will have to have these conditions:
1.It will not set in concrete two separate states based on ethnicity forever...
2. It will allow a healthy amount of intercommunal mixing,ie working and living together...
3. It will remove all foreign interference in the life of Cypriots...
4. It will actively promote the emergence of a Cypriot identity,downplay ethnicity and foreign nationalism,encourage inter-ethnic socialising and marriages...

My preference is for us to return to the 1960 agreement and the Republic of Cyprus it created,but having made the necessary changes to allow for a unitary state to emerge in due course....I don't believe we are capable of agreeing on a new solution which will satisfy my conditions above...

Bir, I hope you notice the contradiction in what you said earlier. First you said that "anything is better than the status quo" and then you talked about conditions that will be required for you to accept some agreement.

We can all have different conditions for this "interim solution" we are talking about, but always it should be clear that this "solution" is in fact just an interim one, with specific time frames, and with the final aim for the final real solution clearly mentioned. Otherwise such "solution" will not be "interim". If it is not defined as interim then any solution proposal should be evaluated as being the final solution, and not as just being somehting interim.

[Piratis]

Where did I say that a "nice man will convince them"? What I said is that Bir wants some sort of "interim solution" that will allow TCs to gradually change so they will be able to accept what I and him believe is the true solution to the Cyprus problem. I don't know what that kind of "interim solution" can be, and I am sure he doesn't know either. But at least he wants to use the forum for a useful discussion that maybe will have some positive idea coming out of it, rather than just talking bullshit all day.

Piratis,

What Bir calls "interim peace" plan and you seem to agree with him along those lines, is the kind of peace plan I wrote last year. You can call it "interim plan" if you like, which takes over a 10 year period. At the end of 10 years, is when a United Cyprus begins it's new journey into the future.

Those who would like to read it, here it is.

"Kofi Kikapu's peace solution for Cyprus"....

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=12055

Kikapu I remember your plan. I don't remember if I agreed with everything that you said there but what I agree is that in order to have an "interim solution" you need specific time frames.

[Oracle]

And Piratis....thanks for your kind words about me to Oracle....
I truly see no point in discussing anything with her...If she can't look at our sorry history,and understand why the TCs are not able to assert themselves under the present circumstances,there is nothing I can do for her...What is the point of accusing the victims of domestic violence or sexual abuse????Expecting them to miraculously find the willpower to overturn their oppression all by themselves???? This is what she is demanding of the TCs...I said all along,the TCs have nowhere else to turn but to the GCs for help and support...If this support is not forthcoming their only option is to be assimilated with Turkey...I am not proud to say so,put that is the fact of the matter...No amount of mental-masturbation on Oracles's part will change it...

Bir, all Cypriots have been victims, with Greek Cypriots being the ones victimized for the longest periods.

The GCs can accept "interim solutions" in order to help re-integrate the TCs in one united country, but at the same time the TCs should start realizing that the gains on our loss that have been offered to them since the 50s by UK and Turkey, are not their rights, but are the elements of the divide and rule game played against Cyprus. If they continue to play the divide and rule game expecting all those gains, then there is really no chance for unity or peace regardless of what we will do (short of giving up our human and democratic rights, which we might be able to put on hold for a few years, but we are definitely not going to give them up).

Are you now volunteering to suspend our need for Human Rights until that time as the TCs have found a way to achieve all their demands to their satisfaction? Because Piratis, I used to believe you said Rights are not negotiable!

The fact we do not have them is not because we can live without them, even for an interim for the TCs to "mature"! We do not have them, not because they are expendable to us since we are a Superhuman race that can live denied of these Rights and still flourish unperturbed.

No Piratis, we did not in a moment of madness decide to experiment living without "Rights" voluntarily! It is because they are denied to us from the Occupation by Turkey of our territory. Hence, the reason we are the victims of this conflict. Turkey denies us our Human Rights, right now (let alone what abuses she enacted to achieve her goal).

So for Bir, you can generously wave a magic wand and have us not be "victims" of Human Rights violations, because it is for an interim period, just until the TCs are happy to agree to a solution.

Are the TCs denied any Human Rights by us, or our actions? ... No, I do not think so. Do the TCs suffer discomfort through being denied Human Rights by us? ... No, I don't think so.

So what pressure would they be under to slowly get used to a change and accept a solution? whilst we live "comfortably" without Human Rights, waiting. Moral? No, none Piratis! They are under no pressure, other than increasing greed due to diminishing resources. These "resources" that they plundered from the 200,000 refugees, and not through their humanly efforts.

Yes, the "suffering" is on now for the TC "victims", because they need more of the goodies we can give them.

So let's replenish their goodies, so that we can have our Human Rights back ..... Negotiable Rights? ... I used to think not!

[miltiades]

And Piratis....thanks for your kind words about me to Oracle....
I truly see no point in discussing anything with her...If she can't look at our sorry history,and understand why the TCs are not able to assert themselves under the present circumstances,there is nothing I can do for her...What is the point of accusing the victims of domestic violence or sexual abuse????Expecting them to miraculously find the willpower to overturn their oppression all by themselves???? This is what she is demanding of the TCs...I said all along,the TCs have nowhere else to turn but to the GCs for help and support...If this support is not forthcoming their only option is to be assimilated with Turkey...I am not proud to say so,put that is the fact of the matter...No amount of mental-masturbation on Oracles's part will change it...

Bir, all Cypriots have been victims, with Greek Cypriots being the ones victimized for the longest periods.

The GCs can accept "interim solutions" in order to help re-integrate the TCs in one united country, but at the same time the TCs should start realizing that the gains on our loss that have been offered to them since the 50s by UK and Turkey, are not their rights, but are the elements of the divide and rule game played against Cyprus. If they continue to play the divide and rule game expecting all those gains, then there is really no chance for unity or peace regardless of what we will do (short of giving up our human and democratic rights, which we might be able to put on hold for a few years, but we are definitely not going to give them up).

Are you now volunteering to suspend our need for Human Rights until that time as the TCs have found a way to achieve all their demands to their satisfaction? Because Piratis, I used to believe you said Rights are not negotiable!

The fact we do not have them is not because we can live without them, even for an interim for the TCs to "mature"! We do not have them, not because they are expendable to us since we are a Superhuman race that can live denied of these Rights and still flourish unperturbed.

No Piratis, we did not in a moment of madness decide to experiment living without "Rights" voluntarily! It is because they are denied to us from the Occupation by Turkey of our territory. Hence, the reason we are the victims of this conflict. Turkey denies us our Human Rights, right now (let alone what abuses she enacted to achieve her goal).

So for Bir, you can generously wave a magic wand and have us not be "victims" of Human Rights violations, because it is for an interim period, just until the TCs are happy to agree to a solution.

Are the TCs denied any Human Rights by us, or our actions? ... No, I do not think so. Do the TCs suffer discomfort through being denied Human Rights by us? ... No, I don't think so.

So what pressure would they be under to slowly get used to a change and accept a solution? whilst we live "comfortably" without Human Rights, waiting. Moral? No, none Piratis! They are under no pressure, other than increasing greed due to diminishing resources. These "resources" that they plundered from the 200,000 refugees, and not through their humanly efforts.

Yes, the "suffering" is on now for the TC "victims", because they need more of the goodies we can give them.

So let's replenish their goodies, so that we can have our Human Rights back ..... Negotiable Rights? ... I used to think not!

Perhaps Oracle can tell us , in not so many words but to the point , how she advocates going forward and finding a just solution to our predicament. We all know about the 200 thousand refugees , we are aware that part of our island , which belongs to all Cyprus not only the G/Cs , is under Turkish occupation , what we want to know is her views on how to A. unite our Island , B. Remove the occupying troops , C.Deal with the thousands of settlers and D. Deal with the property issue.
(Would she kindly refrain from quoting the nonsense posted by GR on how to move ahead ie strike deep into Turkey , mercenaries to help us etc etc.)

[denizaksulu]

And Piratis....thanks for your kind words about me to Oracle....
I truly see no point in discussing anything with her...If she can't look at our sorry history,and understand why the TCs are not able to assert themselves under the present circumstances,there is nothing I can do for her...What is the point of accusing the victims of domestic violence or sexual abuse????Expecting them to miraculously find the willpower to overturn their oppression all by themselves???? This is what she is demanding of the TCs...I said all along,the TCs have nowhere else to turn but to the GCs for help and support...If this support is not forthcoming their only option is to be assimilated with Turkey...I am not proud to say so,put that is the fact of the matter...No amount of mental-masturbation on Oracles's part will change it...

Bir, all Cypriots have been victims, with Greek Cypriots being the ones victimized for the longest periods.

The GCs can accept "interim solutions" in order to help re-integrate the TCs in one united country, but at the same time the TCs should start realizing that the gains on our loss that have been offered to them since the 50s by UK and Turkey, are not their rights, but are the elements of the divide and rule game played against Cyprus. If they continue to play the divide and rule game expecting all those gains, then there is really no chance for unity or peace regardless of what we will do (short of giving up our human and democratic rights, which we might be able to put on hold for a few years, but we are definitely not going to give them up).

Are you now volunteering to suspend our need for Human Rights until that time as the TCs have found a way to achieve all their demands to their satisfaction? Because Piratis, I used to believe you said Rights are not negotiable!

The fact we do not have them is not because we can live without them, even for an interim for the TCs to "mature"! We do not have them, not because they are expendable to us since we are a Superhuman race that can live denied of these Rights and still flourish unperturbed.

No Piratis, we did not in a moment of madness decide to experiment living without "Rights" voluntarily! It is because they are denied to us from the Occupation by Turkey of our territory. Hence, the reason we are the victims of this conflict. Turkey denies us our Human Rights, right now (let alone what abuses she enacted to achieve her goal).

So for Bir, you can generously wave a magic wand and have us not be "victims" of Human Rights violations, because it is for an interim period, just until the TCs are happy to agree to a solution.

Are the TCs denied any Human Rights by us, or our actions? ... No, I do not think so. Do the TCs suffer discomfort through being denied Human Rights by us? ... No, I don't think so.

So what pressure would they be under to slowly get used to a change and accept a solution? whilst we live "comfortably" without Human Rights, waiting. Moral? No, none Piratis! They are under no pressure, other than increasing greed due to diminishing resources. These "resources" that they plundered from the 200,000 refugees, and not through their humanly efforts.

Yes, the "suffering" is on now for the TC "victims", because they need more of the goodies we can give them.

So let's replenish their goodies, so that we can have our Human Rights back ..... Negotiable Rights? ... I used to think not!

Perhaps Oracle can tell us , in not so many words but to the point , how she advocates going forward and finding a just solution to our predicament. We all know about the 200 thousand refugees , we are aware that part of our island , which belongs to all Cyprus not only the G/Cs , is under Turkish occupation , what we want to know is her views on how to A. unite our Island , B. Remove the occupying troops , C.Deal with the thousands of settlers and D. Deal with the property issue.
(Would she kindly refrain from quoting the nonsense posted by GR on how to move ahead ie strike deep into Turkey , mercenaries to help us etc etc.)

Good morning my friend Miltiades. Providing our 'Lady O' manages a 'workable' answer, I will pop over to our 'Social Club' to discuss her proposals.

[miltiades]

And Piratis....thanks for your kind words about me to Oracle....
I truly see no point in discussing anything with her...If she can't look at our sorry history,and understand why the TCs are not able to assert themselves under the present circumstances,there is nothing I can do for her...What is the point of accusing the victims of domestic violence or sexual abuse????Expecting them to miraculously find the willpower to overturn their oppression all by themselves???? This is what she is demanding of the TCs...I said all along,the TCs have nowhere else to turn but to the GCs for help and support...If this support is not forthcoming their only option is to be assimilated with Turkey...I am not proud to say so,put that is the fact of the matter...No amount of mental-masturbation on Oracles's part will change it...

Bir, all Cypriots have been victims, with Greek Cypriots being the ones victimized for the longest periods.

The GCs can accept "interim solutions" in order to help re-integrate the TCs in one united country, but at the same time the TCs should start realizing that the gains on our loss that have been offered to them since the 50s by UK and Turkey, are not their rights, but are the elements of the divide and rule game played against Cyprus. If they continue to play the divide and rule game expecting all those gains, then there is really no chance for unity or peace regardless of what we will do (short of giving up our human and democratic rights, which we might be able to put on hold for a few years, but we are definitely not going to give them up).

Are you now volunteering to suspend our need for Human Rights until that time as the TCs have found a way to achieve all their demands to their satisfaction? Because Piratis, I used to believe you said Rights are not negotiable!

The fact we do not have them is not because we can live without them, even for an interim for the TCs to "mature"! We do not have them, not because they are expendable to us since we are a Superhuman race that can live denied of these Rights and still flourish unperturbed.

No Piratis, we did not in a moment of madness decide to experiment living without "Rights" voluntarily! It is because they are denied to us from the Occupation by Turkey of our territory. Hence, the reason we are the victims of this conflict. Turkey denies us our Human Rights, right now (let alone what abuses she enacted to achieve her goal).

So for Bir, you can generously wave a magic wand and have us not be "victims" of Human Rights violations, because it is for an interim period, just until the TCs are happy to agree to a solution.

Are the TCs denied any Human Rights by us, or our actions? ... No, I do not think so. Do the TCs suffer discomfort through being denied Human Rights by us? ... No, I don't think so.

So what pressure would they be under to slowly get used to a change and accept a solution? whilst we live "comfortably" without Human Rights, waiting. Moral? No, none Piratis! They are under no pressure, other than increasing greed due to diminishing resources. These "resources" that they plundered from the 200,000 refugees, and not through their humanly efforts.

Yes, the "suffering" is on now for the TC "victims", because they need more of the goodies we can give them.

So let's replenish their goodies, so that we can have our Human Rights back ..... Negotiable Rights? ... I used to think not!

Perhaps Oracle can tell us , in not so many words but to the point , how she advocates going forward and finding a just solution to our predicament. We all know about the 200 thousand refugees , we are aware that part of our island , which belongs to all Cyprus not only the G/Cs , is under Turkish occupation , what we want to know is her views on how to A. unite our Island , B. Remove the occupying troops , C.Deal with the thousands of settlers and D. Deal with the property issue.
(Would she kindly refrain from quoting the nonsense posted by GR on how to move ahead ie strike deep into Turkey , mercenaries to help us etc etc.)

Good morning my friend Miltiades. Providing our 'Lady O' manages a 'workable' answer, I will pop over to our 'Social Club' to discuss her proposals.

Anytime Deniz , I start at 11 am this morning.
As for Birs statement "...What is the point of accusing the victims of domestic violence or sexual abuse????Expecting them to miraculously find the willpower to overturn their oppression all by themselves???? This is what she is demanding of the TCs...I said all along,the TCs have nowhere else to turn but to the GCs for help and support...
I'm surprised at Os perception of this metaphor that Bir used .
IT WAS METAPHORICALY USED ORACLE , HE WAS NOT REFFERING TO THE T/Cs being the victims of domestic violence !!!