Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

Oracle, Bir is better than most, better than me in many respects, and he doesn't need to associate himself with anybody. You are blinded by your racism and you are just playing word games with no essence.

It is clear why Bir and a few others are indeed in a better position:
1) His intelligence is obviously higher than average
2) He is a Cypriot Humanist and not a Turkish nationalist
3) He has no financial or other interests from the partition of the island as many other TCs have
4) He had personal experiences with GCs and he knows that GCs are not the "evils" that TCs are brainwashed to believe.

He doesn't think lowly of the TCs, he just knows that the 5 points I mentioned above are not true for many TCs, and he also knows that currently the TCs are totally under the control of Ankara, so he is trying to figure out some sort of solution that will help bring the rest of the TCs closer to his views.

Is he better than most? In what respect Piratis?

Because he is not like other TCs in accepting a lowly view of the TCs?
Because he brandishes a patronizing view of them, disrespectfully in my opinion, of suggesting they need special treatment?

Sorry that is not classed as better in my opinion.

Maybe Bir sees the TCs as his enemies that have harmed him and he has personal experience with which to admonish them ... (as I do too ... but I don't ask for special favours for GCs, as he asks for TCs).

Your very own answer Piratis, suggests you place him above the average TC ... (dare I say something bad about you )... maybe Piratis dear, because you think lowly of TCs too! (But if you did, I could accept that, as you have suffered from their actions too ... but on the other hand, you have never asked for special treatment for the GCs; vis-a-vis to tweak Democracy and Human Rights to favour GCs as a group).

So we have elitism at the very least; and racism by default.

His posts discriminatingly "grouped" the TCs into a special (inferior) class.

Seeking solutions, fine. No problem! But not solutions based on Bir labelling the TCs as "not ready yet" for equal treatment and recognition as individuals, but requesting we go backwards on principles to fit them in. What kind of start would that be? Doomed to failure as we take them in as their superiors (by inference from Bir's assumptions).

At the very least it is a surreptitious demand for favouritism.

Bir is not offering any ways to improve and make ready the TCs which he asserts are not capable of practicing Democracy. He instead suggests we tweak Democracy to suit the TCs.

If the TCs have a problem with Democracy (as Bir proposes) it is in their long-term interests to change.

I want the TCs as equals, as individuals too. I don't think they are inferior beings; just people that have harmed my country with habits (memes) that I want modified. Bir suggests they are incapable of change. Balderdash!

[Get Real!]

Oracle, Bir is better than most, better than me in many respects, and he doesn't need to associate himself with anybody. You are blinded by your racism and you are just playing word games with no essence.

It is clear why Bir and a few others are indeed in a better position:
1) His intelligence is obviously higher than average
2) He is a Cypriot Humanist and not a Turkish nationalist
3) He has no financial or other interests from the partition of the island as many other TCs have
4) He had personal experiences with GCs and he knows that GCs are not the "evils" that TCs are brainwashed to believe.

He doesn't think lowly of the TCs, he just knows that the 5 points I mentioned above are not true for many TCs, and he also knows that currently the TCs are totally under the control of Ankara, so he is trying to figure out some sort of solution that will help bring the rest of the TCs closer to his views.

It’s obvious that the TC community is basking in the spoils of Turkish plunder so to assume that a “nice man” will convince them out of crime is nothing less than naïve.

Where did I say that a "nice man will convince them"? What I said is that Bir wants some sort of solution that will allow TCs to gradually change so they will be able to accept what I and him believe is the true solution to the Cyprus problem. I don't know what that kind of "interim solution" can be, and I am sure he doesn't know either. But at least he wants to use the forum for a useful discussion that maybe will have some positive idea coming out of it, rather than just talking bullshit all day.

It’s a proven fact that if someone can get away with a crime they will commit it. What the TCs need is a HEAVY HAND in the form of extreme pressure and international exposure. They have been allowed to hide behind Turkey and thus acquitted of THEIR responsibilities for far too long, and this has encouraged their ignorance and intransigence. They are as much to blame as Turkey for post 74 actions.

Right. And for that to happen we need the change in the balance of power. With Bir we are debating whether it is possible to have a solution without the need for the balance of power to change. Personally I don't think is possible, but I am open to ideas.

The important thing is to have a common aim. If the aim is different, like it is mine and Viewpoints aim, then any sort of discussions are totally useless. There is no point of discussing the how you will go somewhere when you don't even agree on where you should go.

But with Bir we agree on what the aim is, and therefore we can discuss the various possible routes.

People expect Turkey to do the right thing by Cyprus even though Turkey is a FOREIGN country and couldn’t care less about Cyprus, yet nobody is asking the Turkish Cypriots who PROFESS to be “Cypriots” why THEY are doing everything they can to PROLONG this mess on Cyprus at the expense of their “compatriots”!

Let us not kid ourselves anymore…those TC members who profess to be “moderates” or whatever they want to call themselves, should start querying their people’s actions instead of just remaining silent or posting hollow messages of goodwill!

It’s high time these “moderates” started re-evaluating THEIR contribution to the prolonging of this mess with their soft approach that only encourages TC acquittal from any responsibility.

[BirKibrisli]

I am also talking about solutions Bir, and not mere agreements that will only make our problem worst.

As I said a real solution can not be far from what I described above. There really isn't any alternative to human rights and democracy. The details of the system can be negotiated, but the principles of a true solution can not.

Instead of waisting our time looking for something that does not exist and perpetuate our problem with new problematic agreements, we should simply concentrate our efforts in achieving a real solution.

If and when a solution is achieved is something that only time will show, but the earlier we start working for a solution the better.

Fine,Piratis...The real solution according to you and me is a unitary state based on democratic principles and human rights...But you and I cannot really affect an agreement between the two communities...Those who can will have nothing less than a BBF based on political equality of the GCs and TCs...How are we going to get from here to our ideal "real" solution???

I disagree with you Bir. You and I can affect the agreement by refusing to accept some agreement that will not solve the Cyprus problem but make it worst and perpetuate it.

The first step in solving a problem is to recognize that there is a problem and identify what the problem exactly is.

Take the Kurds for example. Kurdistan is not a recognized entity, and for the international community there is no such problem as the "Turkish occupation of Kurdistan", and the Kurds have no international voice to fight for their rights.

In that respect Cyprus is far ahead of the Kurds in its struggle for freedom. The problem of illegal Turkish occupation of the north part of Cyprus is internationally recognized, and Cyprus has the international voice, and some small power within EU, to fight for justice.

If we accept some new agreement that will try to close (not solve) the Cyprus problem, then while our problem will remain the same, or even get worst, it will not be recognized as a problem by anybody anymore. Furthermore, by giving to Turkey the 50% power share of Cyprus with veto rights, it will mean that Cypriots will lose their international voice and will not be able to even complain.

I don't have the magic formula that can immediately solve the Cyprus problem under the current balance of power, but I know what we should and shouldn't do in order to avoid getting something worst and avoid making steps backwards in our struggle for freedom.

I see what you are getting at,Piratis...But you are not considering one thing....the status quo is also making it worse and perpetuating it...And the longer it lasts the worse it will get...With an interim solution we have at least a chance to work on the understanding,trust ands respect aspects...At least we might get a chance to de-brainwash the people,to give them the opportunity to work and live together even partly or on a part-time basis,in a realistic sloution environment...the status quo will only lead to another hot conflict,which is what I think we must avoid at all cost...An interim solution might just lead to our ideal solution,a long time down the line...

I agree what you say about the status quo but I am not sure about what "interim solution" you are talking about.

An "interim solution" would require several things:
1) It would have to be better than the status quo
2) It should be clear that it is interim with specific time frame (otherwise we will be hearing the "if you didn't like it you shouldn't have signed it" for the next 200 years)
3) It should be such that will promote unity so that at the end of this specific period we will indeed be ready to make the next step.

So yes, if we can agree on somehting that will not be the final solution but it will be a step forward then I would agree. But so far what is proposed not only is not a solution, but it is a big step backwards as I explained earlier.

Unlike you,Piratis,I think that anything is better than the status quo...But I am looking at it from my unique TC viewpoint....The interim solution I will accept will have to have these conditions:
1.It will not set in concrete two separate states based on ethnicity forever...
2. It will allow a healthy amount of intercommunal mixing,ie working and living together...
3. It will remove all foreign interference in the life of Cypriots...
4. It will actively promote the emergence of a Cypriot identity,downplay ethnicity and foreign nationalism,encourage inter-ethnic socialising and marriages...

My preference is for us to return to the 1960 agreement and the Republic of Cyprus it created,but having made the necessary changes to allow for a unitary state to emerge in due course....I don't believe we are capable of agreeing on a new solution which will satisfy my conditions above...

[BirKibrisli]

And Piratis....thanks for your kind words about me to Oracle....
I truly see no point in discussing anything with her...If she can't look at our sorry history,and understand why the TCs are not able to assert themselves under the present circumstances,there is nothing I can do for her...What is the point of accusing the victims of domestic violence or sexual abuse????Expecting them to miraculously find the willpower to overturn their oppression all by themselves???? This is what she is demanding of the TCs...I said all along,the TCs have nowhere else to turn but to the GCs for help and support...If this support is not forthcoming their only option is to be assimilated with Turkey...I am not proud to say so,put that is the fact of the matter...No amount of mental-masturbation on Oracles's part will change it...

[Kikapu]

Where did I say that a "nice man will convince them"? What I said is that Bir wants some sort of "interim solution" that will allow TCs to gradually change so they will be able to accept what I and him believe is the true solution to the Cyprus problem. I don't know what that kind of "interim solution" can be, and I am sure he doesn't know either. But at least he wants to use the forum for a useful discussion that maybe will have some positive idea coming out of it, rather than just talking bullshit all day.

Piratis,

What Bir calls "interim peace" plan and you seem to agree with him along those lines, is the kind of peace plan I wrote last year. You can call it "interim plan" if you like, which takes over a 10 year period. At the end of 10 years, is when a United Cyprus begins it's new journey into the future.

Those who would like to read it, here it is.

"Kofi Kikapu's peace solution for Cyprus"....

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=12055

[Oracle]

And Piratis....thanks for your kind words about me to Oracle....
I truly see no point in discussing anything with her...If she can't look at our sorry history,and understand why the TCs are not able to assert themselves under the present circumstances,there is nothing I can do for her...What is the point of accusing the victims of domestic violence or sexual abuse????Expecting them to miraculously find the willpower to overturn their oppression all by themselves???? This is what she is demanding of the TCs...I said all along,the TCs have nowhere else to turn but to the GCs for help and support...If this support is not forthcoming their only option is to be assimilated with Turkey...I am not proud to say so,put that is the fact of the matter...No amount of mental-masturbation on Oracles's part will change it...

There dear Piratis is what you support ....

This is how he portrays the TCs to the world! The victims that we should concentrate on helping.

Who are the foreign powers to help ... but the abused TCs.

No, not help the GCs! whose country is occupied.. They are not suffering at the moment Piratis! The GCs are doing very well. They are in a position to help others.

So no one need help the GCs.

Forget EU support for GCs, forget UN Resolutions to reverse Human Rights abuses against 200,000 GCs ...

No it will be funds and time wasted helping GCs because the real victims in this conflict are the TCs.

And guess what? ... The cherry on the top .... We can get the GCs to help them instead ...

Piratis I sincerely hope it is because of your good nature and strong hope for a way, that you were naively duped by this crafty merchant who has found a great twist with which to give his people (yes the TCs) all the support they need by ignoring the plight of the 200,000 real victims of a foreign power and help those stupid enough to let this power of Turkey in, to which they will cling to with tenacious historical binds ...

Does Bir really think the TCs will let us fight a war with their motherland to free them from its grasp, when for 400 years they refused to act like Cypriots, but rulers over us...

Or is he after our complete annihilation...

[BirKibrisli]

Where did I say that a "nice man will convince them"? What I said is that Bir wants some sort of "interim solution" that will allow TCs to gradually change so they will be able to accept what I and him believe is the true solution to the Cyprus problem. I don't know what that kind of "interim solution" can be, and I am sure he doesn't know either. But at least he wants to use the forum for a useful discussion that maybe will have some positive idea coming out of it, rather than just talking bullshit all day.

Piratis,

What Bir calls "interim peace" plan and you seem to agree with him along those lines, is the kind of peace plan I wrote last year. You can call it "interim plan" if you like, which takes over a 10 year period. At the end of 10 years, is when a United Cyprus begins it's new journey into the future.

Those who would like to read it, here it is.

"Kofi Kikapu's peace solution for Cyprus"....

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=12055

Halil???? where are you when we need you?????

I demand that you forward " Kofi Kikapu's peace solution for Cyprus" to the present negotiators at once...

This is as good a place as any to start from....

[BirKibrisli]

And Piratis....thanks for your kind words about me to Oracle....
I truly see no point in discussing anything with her...If she can't look at our sorry history,and understand why the TCs are not able to assert themselves under the present circumstances,there is nothing I can do for her...What is the point of accusing the victims of domestic violence or sexual abuse????Expecting them to miraculously find the willpower to overturn their oppression all by themselves???? This is what she is demanding of the TCs...I said all along,the TCs have nowhere else to turn but to the GCs for help and support...If this support is not forthcoming their only option is to be assimilated with Turkey...I am not proud to say so,put that is the fact of the matter...No amount of mental-masturbation on Oracles's part will change it...

There dear Piratis is what you support ....

This is how he portrays the TCs to the world! The victims that we should concentrate on helping.

Who are the foreign powers to help ... but the abused TCs.

No, not help the GCs! whose country is occupied.. They are not suffering at the moment Piratis! The GCs are doing very well. They are in a position to help others.

So no one need help the GCs.

Forget EU support for GCs, forget UN Resolutions to reverse Human Rights abuses against 200,000 GCs ...

No it will be funds and time wasted helping GCs because the real victims in this conflict are the TCs.

And guess what? ... The cherry on the top .... We can get the GCs to help them instead ...

Piratis I sincerely hope it is because of your good nature and strong hope for a way, that you were naively duped by this crafty merchant who has found a great twist with which to give his people (yes the TCs) all the support they need by ignoring the plight of the 200,000 real victims of a foreign power and help those stupid enough to let this power of Turkey in, to which they will cling to with tenacious historical binds ...

Does Bir really think the TCs will let us fight a war with their motherland to free them from its grasp, when for 400 years they refused to act like Cypriots, but rulers over us...

Or is he after our complete annihilation...

Now,Oracle...I need your help here...Please use your imagination,and imagine that I have posted here that nice emoticon that GR often posts...you know....the little man who is masturbating...Many thanks!!!

[Oracle]

And Piratis....thanks for your kind words about me to Oracle....
I truly see no point in discussing anything with her...If she can't look at our sorry history,and understand why the TCs are not able to assert themselves under the present circumstances,there is nothing I can do for her...What is the point of accusing the victims of domestic violence or sexual abuse????Expecting them to miraculously find the willpower to overturn their oppression all by themselves???? This is what she is demanding of the TCs...I said all along,the TCs have nowhere else to turn but to the GCs for help and support...If this support is not forthcoming their only option is to be assimilated with Turkey...I am not proud to say so,put that is the fact of the matter...No amount of mental-masturbation on Oracles's part will change it...

There dear Piratis is what you support ....

This is how he portrays the TCs to the world! The victims that we should concentrate on helping.

Who are the foreign powers to help ... but the abused TCs.

No, not help the GCs! whose country is occupied.. They are not suffering at the moment Piratis! The GCs are doing very well. They are in a position to help others.

So no one need help the GCs.

Forget EU support for GCs, forget UN Resolutions to reverse Human Rights abuses against 200,000 GCs ...

No it will be funds and time wasted helping GCs because the real victims in this conflict are the TCs.

And guess what? ... The cherry on the top .... We can get the GCs to help them instead ...

Piratis I sincerely hope it is because of your good nature and strong hope for a way, that you were naively duped by this crafty merchant who has found a great twist with which to give his people (yes the TCs) all the support they need by ignoring the plight of the 200,000 real victims of a foreign power and help those stupid enough to let this power of Turkey in, to which they will cling to with tenacious historical binds ...

Does Bir really think the TCs will let us fight a war with their motherland to free them from its grasp, when for 400 years they refused to act like Cypriots, but rulers over us...

Or is he after our complete annihilation...

Now,Oracle...I need your help here...Please use your imagination,and imagine that I have posted here that nice emoticon that GR often posts...you know....the little man who is masturbating...Many thanks!!!

... and that little man is you!

Again a masterful display by Bir, of inability to engage with anything but fantasy.

[BirKibrisli]

And Piratis....thanks for your kind words about me to Oracle....
I truly see no point in discussing anything with her...If she can't look at our sorry history,and understand why the TCs are not able to assert themselves under the present circumstances,there is nothing I can do for her...What is the point of accusing the victims of domestic violence or sexual abuse????Expecting them to miraculously find the willpower to overturn their oppression all by themselves???? This is what she is demanding of the TCs...I said all along,the TCs have nowhere else to turn but to the GCs for help and support...If this support is not forthcoming their only option is to be assimilated with Turkey...I am not proud to say so,put that is the fact of the matter...No amount of mental-masturbation on Oracles's part will change it...

There dear Piratis is what you support ....

This is how he portrays the TCs to the world! The victims that we should concentrate on helping.

Who are the foreign powers to help ... but the abused TCs.

No, not help the GCs! whose country is occupied.. They are not suffering at the moment Piratis! The GCs are doing very well. They are in a position to help others.

So no one need help the GCs.

Forget EU support for GCs, forget UN Resolutions to reverse Human Rights abuses against 200,000 GCs ...

No it will be funds and time wasted helping GCs because the real victims in this conflict are the TCs.

And guess what? ... The cherry on the top .... We can get the GCs to help them instead ...

Piratis I sincerely hope it is because of your good nature and strong hope for a way, that you were naively duped by this crafty merchant who has found a great twist with which to give his people (yes the TCs) all the support they need by ignoring the plight of the 200,000 real victims of a foreign power and help those stupid enough to let this power of Turkey in, to which they will cling to with tenacious historical binds ...

Does Bir really think the TCs will let us fight a war with their motherland to free them from its grasp, when for 400 years they refused to act like Cypriots, but rulers over us...

Or is he after our complete annihilation...

Now,Oracle...I need your help here...Please use your imagination,and imagine that I have posted here that nice emoticon that GR often posts...you know....the little man who is masturbating...Many thanks!!!

... and that little man is you!

Again a masterful display by Bir, of inability to engage with anything but fantasy.

Says the entity who is the figment of someone else's twisted fantasy...