Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

Bir asked:

"So is Hasturer right when he claims Christofias is handicapped by this "preconception" held by the majority of the GCs??? "

NO, NO and NO! He is not right. I have heard Christofias castigate the Greek Cypriots for not accepting the TCs as equals on a class basis, not a racial basis.

In the not too distand future this question will be redundant. In a proper functioning society people are not judged by status, which they cannot help, but by the obligations put on them by the constitution and the law as well as those that they have taken on while exercising their freedom, to put it in legal terms societies move from status to contract.

Hasturer has a point when he says the TCs have failed to exercise and claim their rights as Cypriot citizens. But that does not answer the question as to whether the GCs regard them as inferior, any more than other segments of Cypriot society are judged as inferior, ie Cypriot women. The attitude has nothing to do with race. It is also insulting to read Hasturer's blanket statement that all GCs regard the TCs as shamishi makers. I recal an equally insulting statement by Denktash that TCs are not capable in business and if the two communities reunite the TCs are condemned , because of this inferiority, to be second class poor citizens. This is nonsense.

People prove their worth by joining in and by participating, allowing others to judge their performance. A good architect is good because he or she produces good work and not because he is male and GC. The withdrawal of TCs from most areas of life, even before the EOKA campaign prevented such assessments, but that does not lead to an automatic rejection and relegation to shamishi makers.

I am sure that once the separation is lifted, and people are judged by what they do and accompish the ethnic distinctions will fade. The able and sincere will come through and the social faults we have as Cypriots will be equally strong in both sides. ie nepotism, cronyism etc. Guaranteeing equality of opportunity will be a major transcommunal challenge.

Shamishi will be made by badly paid immigrants and that will be another story.

You make a lot of sense,Nikitas...All we need to do is look at what Cypriots have achieved in the diaspora....No matter what their ethnic background,Cypriots have risen to great heights in all aspects of life,despite their handicaps of being migrants or refugees...I sometimes shake my head when I think of my own modest background,born in the Paphos mountains in a village without electricity or running water...Yet,in my country of refuge, I managed to obtain positions where meeting and dealing with international and national dignitaries were daily occurrences...

... did you deliver the Shamishi to them?

Jealous are we????
In my next life I will be a lokma and shamishi maker in the RoC,Oracle...
pity you will not partake in any...you are figment of someone's twisted imagination... Which makes me,an idiot talking to a nonexistent entity...

I see I present a threat to you since your wish be that I did not exist.

You are a fantasist through and through. And I may be your nightmare vision ...... a logical practical person!

Meetings with dignitaries provide me with no envy; mere disappointments, to date!

Now, when it comes to intellectuals .... Mmmm

When I was going down the stair
I met a woman who wasn't there
She wasn't there again today
Oh!how I wish she'd go away!!!!

Now how intellectual is that!!!

[Oracle]

Bir asked:

"So is Hasturer right when he claims Christofias is handicapped by this "preconception" held by the majority of the GCs??? "

NO, NO and NO! He is not right. I have heard Christofias castigate the Greek Cypriots for not accepting the TCs as equals on a class basis, not a racial basis.

In the not too distand future this question will be redundant. In a proper functioning society people are not judged by status, which they cannot help, but by the obligations put on them by the constitution and the law as well as those that they have taken on while exercising their freedom, to put it in legal terms societies move from status to contract.

Hasturer has a point when he says the TCs have failed to exercise and claim their rights as Cypriot citizens. But that does not answer the question as to whether the GCs regard them as inferior, any more than other segments of Cypriot society are judged as inferior, ie Cypriot women. The attitude has nothing to do with race. It is also insulting to read Hasturer's blanket statement that all GCs regard the TCs as shamishi makers. I recal an equally insulting statement by Denktash that TCs are not capable in business and if the two communities reunite the TCs are condemned , because of this inferiority, to be second class poor citizens. This is nonsense.

People prove their worth by joining in and by participating, allowing others to judge their performance. A good architect is good because he or she produces good work and not because he is male and GC. The withdrawal of TCs from most areas of life, even before the EOKA campaign prevented such assessments, but that does not lead to an automatic rejection and relegation to shamishi makers.

I am sure that once the separation is lifted, and people are judged by what they do and accompish the ethnic distinctions will fade. The able and sincere will come through and the social faults we have as Cypriots will be equally strong in both sides. ie nepotism, cronyism etc. Guaranteeing equality of opportunity will be a major transcommunal challenge.

Shamishi will be made by badly paid immigrants and that will be another story.

You make a lot of sense,Nikitas...All we need to do is look at what Cypriots have achieved in the diaspora....No matter what their ethnic background,Cypriots have risen to great heights in all aspects of life,despite their handicaps of being migrants or refugees...I sometimes shake my head when I think of my own modest background,born in the Paphos mountains in a village without electricity or running water...Yet,in my country of refuge, I managed to obtain positions where meeting and dealing with international and national dignitaries were daily occurrences...

... did you deliver the Shamishi to them?

Jealous are we????
In my next life I will be a lokma and shamishi maker in the RoC,Oracle...
pity you will not partake in any...you are figment of someone's twisted imagination... Which makes me,an idiot talking to a nonexistent entity...

I see I present a threat to you since your wish be that I did not exist.

You are a fantasist through and through. And I may be your nightmare vision ...... a logical practical person!

Meetings with dignitaries provide me with no envy; mere disappointments, to date!

Now, when it comes to intellectuals .... Mmmm

When I was going down the stair
I met a woman who wasn't there
She wasn't there again today
Oh!how I wish she'd go away!!!!

Now how intellectual is that!!!

Your Intellectual Intercourse is of the self-gratification variety

[Bananiot]

Niazi also said the following:

When we take a look at these criticisms closely we can easily see that there is "alliance" independent of ethnical roots in the Cyprus Policies. Those who talk against the May 23 Common Statement, both Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot, can be put in the same "alliance". This "alliance" comes across as an "alliance" of anti-solution and although they come up with different arguments they are the outcome of similar way of thinking to claim a vast list of demands under the mask of nationalism. The only force that can stand against it is the embrace of an alliance of the solution supporters free from ethnicity. We should keep in mind that Cyprus has two different nations however apart from that there are 2 separate formations free from ethnicity: the solution – supporters and the anti-solution supporters.

The era that we are getting into is certainly expected to get the two wings against each other more than ever; which is why it is inevitable for the solution-supporters to stand against the anti-solution supporters putting forth all their decisiveness and will while try and reach an agreement with the other solution supporting wing. Especially the Greek Cypriot community should not do the same mistakes they did in 2004.

It makes perfect sense to me. Thus, me, halil, iceman, birkibrisli and some others from this forum will soon be confronting the rejectionists of the likes of GR, Kifeas, Piratis, Denktash, Avci etc.

The decisive confrontation will be between the nationalists/rejectionists and the real Cypriots, the solution seekers.

[Get Real!]

Niazi also said the following:

When we take a look at these criticisms closely we can easily see that there is "alliance" independent of ethnical roots in the Cyprus Policies. Those who talk against the May 23 Common Statement, both Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot, can be put in the same "alliance". This "alliance" comes across as an "alliance" of anti-solution and although they come up with different arguments they are the outcome of similar way of thinking to claim a vast list of demands under the mask of nationalism. The only force that can stand against it is the embrace of an alliance of the solution supporters free from ethnicity. We should keep in mind that Cyprus has two different nations however apart from that there are 2 separate formations free from ethnicity: the solution – supporters and the anti-solution supporters.

The era that we are getting into is certainly expected to get the two wings against each other more than ever; which is why it is inevitable for the solution-supporters to stand against the anti-solution supporters putting forth all their decisiveness and will while try and reach an agreement with the other solution supporting wing. Especially the Greek Cypriot community should not do the same mistakes they did in 2004.

It makes perfect sense to me. Thus, me, halil, iceman, birkibrisli and some others from this forum will soon be confronting the rejectionists of the likes of GR, Kifeas, Piratis, Denktash, Avci etc.

The decisive confrontation will be between the nationalists/rejectionists and the real Cypriots, the solution seekers.

What you’ve quoted above rests entirely on the exact meaning of the over-abused word “solution” because without a detailed description the author gives nothing but hollow rhetoric left entirely to the reader’s imagination. You have every right to dream what “solution” means to you but so do others.

In conclusion, you could say that we are “REJECTIONISTS” of YOUR interpretation of “SOLUTION” and “ACCEPTIONISTS” of OUR interpretation of the word.

[Viewpoint]

Bir asked:

"So is Hasturer right when he claims Christofias is handicapped by this "preconception" held by the majority of the GCs??? "

NO, NO and NO! He is not right. I have heard Christofias castigate the Greek Cypriots for not accepting the TCs as equals on a class basis, not a racial basis.

In the not too distand future this question will be redundant. In a proper functioning society people are not judged by status, which they cannot help, but by the obligations put on them by the constitution and the law as well as those that they have taken on while exercising their freedom, to put it in legal terms societies move from status to contract.

Hasturer has a point when he says the TCs have failed to exercise and claim their rights as Cypriot citizens. But that does not answer the question as to whether the GCs regard them as inferior, any more than other segments of Cypriot society are judged as inferior, ie Cypriot women. The attitude has nothing to do with race. It is also insulting to read Hasturer's blanket statement that all GCs regard the TCs as shamishi makers. I recal an equally insulting statement by Denktash that TCs are not capable in business and if the two communities reunite the TCs are condemned , because of this inferiority, to be second class poor citizens. This is nonsense.

People prove their worth by joining in and by participating, allowing others to judge their performance. A good architect is good because he or she produces good work and not because he is male and GC. The withdrawal of TCs from most areas of life, even before the EOKA campaign prevented such assessments, but that does not lead to an automatic rejection and relegation to shamishi makers.

I am sure that once the separation is lifted, and people are judged by what they do and accompish the ethnic distinctions will fade. The able and sincere will come through and the social faults we have as Cypriots will be equally strong in both sides. ie nepotism, cronyism etc. Guaranteeing equality of opportunity will be a major transcommunal challenge.

Shamishi will be made by badly paid immigrants and that will be another story.

You are very optimistic but experience tells us even today that neither side has shown political maturity to a degree of other nations, which become extra sensantive between GCs and TCs, GC will always vote for any alternative than a TC candidate, this fact we cannot leave to chance we have to guarantee they will not use their numerical advantage to brush us to one side and force their decision upon us, we will be back to square one and the last 45 years of struggle would have been in vain.

[Nikitas]

VP,

Politics aside, when you have a real need, like for a really good doctor, you will go to the one that is best, even if he happens to be of the "other side". This is the process which will prove that TCs are exactly as capable as GCs on all spheres and eventually in politics.

[Viewpoint]

VP,

Politics aside, when you have a real need, like for a really good doctor, you will go to the one that is best, even if he happens to be of the "other side". This is the process which will prove that TCs are exactly as capable as GCs on all spheres and eventually in politics.

I have no concerns about the TCs, they go work south and interact quite well, its the other way around that I am concerned about will GCs see Tcs doctors as equals? they do not show those signs even today when the cross north purely for viewing purposes nothing else.

[DT.]

Niazi also said the following:

When we take a look at these criticisms closely we can easily see that there is "alliance" independent of ethnical roots in the Cyprus Policies. Those who talk against the May 23 Common Statement, both Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot, can be put in the same "alliance". This "alliance" comes across as an "alliance" of anti-solution and although they come up with different arguments they are the outcome of similar way of thinking to claim a vast list of demands under the mask of nationalism. The only force that can stand against it is the embrace of an alliance of the solution supporters free from ethnicity. We should keep in mind that Cyprus has two different nations however apart from that there are 2 separate formations free from ethnicity: the solution – supporters and the anti-solution supporters.

The era that we are getting into is certainly expected to get the two wings against each other more than ever; which is why it is inevitable for the solution-supporters to stand against the anti-solution supporters putting forth all their decisiveness and will while try and reach an agreement with the other solution supporting wing. Especially the Greek Cypriot community should not do the same mistakes they did in 2004.

It makes perfect sense to me. Thus, me, halil, iceman, birkibrisli and some others from this forum will soon be confronting the rejectionists of the likes of GR, Kifeas, Piratis, Denktash, Avci etc.

The decisive confrontation will be between the nationalists/rejectionists and the real Cypriots, the solution seekers.

STrange how you a solution- supporter is the biggest advocate for segragation according to the plans you've supported. SO much for a common ethnicity amongst the solution supporters when they are willing to accept 2 separate states on this island.

[Tim Drayton]

“Leaders have engaged in genuine and meaningful dialogue today and have reviewed the results of the March 21 Agreement. They declared their allegiance to a Federation founded on a bizonal, bicommunal system based on political equality as defined by the related Security Council decisions. There will be a Turkish Cypriot co-founder state and a Greek Cypriot co-founder State alongside the international identity as Federal Government in this partnership.”

The lines above have been taken from the general statement made on May 23rd following the Mehmet Ali Talat-Demetris Christofias meeting.

The above paragraph is utter rubbish! If Niyazi Kizilyurek wrote the above thing, then he rightfully disserves the title of the “master of distortion and disinformation!” No where in the joined communiqué between Christofias and Talat of 21st of May does it say that they agreed on BBF that will be based on a partnership between two co-founding states! This is utter nonsense, product of wishful thinking and distortion!

This is what the joined communiqué of the two leaders actually says:

``They reaffirmed their commitment for a bizonal bicommunal federation with political equality, as defined by relevant Security Council resolutions. This partnership will have a federal government with a single international personality, as well as a Turkish Cypriot constituent state and a Greek Cypriot constituent state which will be of equal status,``

Now, compare this with what Kizilyurek wrote after distorting it, in a very unskillful way I may add!

When doing so, do keep in mind that the two have been meeting and negotiating for years now as the leaders of the two communities, the GC and the TC ones, as it is also stipulated in all the UN SC resolutions calling upon them to reach a political settlement, and not as the leaders or presidents of any two separate states “existing” in Cyprus! Therefore, when the two are referring to a partnership, it is only a partnership between the two communities, as they were defined and emerged in the 1960 agreements and RoC constitution, because that is the capacity under which they both recognize each other and do negotiate! The federal State and government of Cyprus, as well as the two constituent states, are all by-products of this partnership between the two leaders (i.e. by-products of the existing partnership between the two communities, since 1960,) and not the other way around! Anyone knowing just a little bit of English will tell you that you cannot possibly interpret the above sentence in the communiqué to mean that the partnership itself and the federal government or state, are by-products of the an agreement between the two constituent states, set aside one between any two "co-founding" states!

check it from below link Kifeas ,

http://www.observercyprus.com/observer/ ... px?id=2916

also check UN secretary latest report from UN page see what it is saying .
my translation might not satisfy you .

This article is a (probably unauthorised) translation of Kızılyürek's regular column in the Yeni Düzen newspaper. The original article in Turkish is here:

http://www.yeniduzengazetesi.com/templa ... &zoneid=17

The quote above is a poor translation back into English of the original statement, after this has been translated into Turkish. That is why it is highly inaccurate.

Kızılyürek is fluent in several languages, including English, but only writes in Turkish and Greek. These bloopers are the fault of the translator, not the man himself.

[repulsewarrior]

My view is that the Tc's in a unitary state would possibly hold the balance of power. It is well known that GC's are split between left and right. It therefore would stand to reason that a politically well organised TC community could hold the balance of power and hence gain their fair share of political influence in the RoC.

The problem with the RoC as it stands is that it is a bicommunal republic! It is actually DETRIMENTAL in the sense that it makes one community feel inferior to the other from the word go.

In any mature democracy, you generally find that the minorities hold the balance of power. It would be the same in Cyprus if the people were allowed to politically mature and the TC's would play a full and active part in that and have the political and social influence that they deserve to have.

I think its true that many GC's looked down on the TC's but if you talk to many GC's now, many would agree that they themselves as a community fostered that situation and even more so after independence because of the feeling that TC's gained a disproportionate influence in the workings of government and as such fostered some resentment in the GC community. Many Gc's DO blame their community and openly admit to it.

I also think that the pursuit of Enosis also polarised the GC community and as such, in the 1960's a truly unitary state would fall apart anyway due to the polarisation of the 2 communities towards partition or Enosis.

Today, if the bicommunal nature of the constitution were eliminated I think you may find the TC's will have a more influential role in Cypriot politics. But this I think is probably a step too far for many TC's. It is the fear of the past that drives the future for many of them. On the GC side, I think the lesson has been painfully learnt and that is demostrtated by the change of leadership in February to a pro solution president.

thank you mikkie2, very astute.

agree with you, ...it is why I propose enclaves, and please, read my Manifesto in the Solution section of this Forum.