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Myth, Compromise and Solution!

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby repulsewarrior » Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:53 pm

United Republic of Cyprus...

...this is what has been agreed to.

please read my own Manifesto, Andros

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=16772

and this thread...

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=15874

to get an idea of my opinions, which I think are not unlike yours.


I too, support a Unitary State. I think that the countervaling power of the two societies has not yet been exploited to be for our benefit, in this context, as Cypriots, in the defence of our Individual Rights, and our Sovereignty.

However, I believe that the Greek, Turkish, (Armenian, and Maronite) cultures have a need to sustain themselves as Persons as well, having a form, in their own self-representation.

National Assemblies, in this regard allows the democratic process to find its inclusive expression when these majorities can demonstrate their abilities by providing for the special needs of minorities amongst them.

Bicommunal, like Bizonal does not mean cutting up the island in two, unless we choose intolerance.

Our diversity is what will propel us into the Age of Information, if by Cooperation we continue our existence as the most Socialised People in the world. Enclaves, if added to our geography, will sustain the diversity of each society in the modern urban setting, they will grow to have their own distinctions, adding to the variety of choices Cypriots will have in their living. Cypriots will not have a border between them although there will be many frontiers.
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Postby Andros » Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:01 pm

Oracle,

You've clearly misunderstood my point!

What I am saying is that, unless Turkey's Guarantor issue is COMPROMISED, no Cyprus deal will be reached, thus it will lead to PARTITION as we know it - Understand?

This is the Reality Oracle - where UNFORTUNATELY, we seriously messed up immediately after 1974. The Cyprus issue must be viewed through the EYES of BOTH communities, and NOT one. This has always been its failure, and IS EXACTLY WHAT TURKEY IS SEEKING. After Turkey's Invasion in 1974, we simply accepted the UK's declaration of the ROC without the pariticipation of the northern Coccupied part and AGREED TO SIT DOWN AND NEGOCIATE a settlement plan - how ridiculous was that! Negotiate a NEW Settlement? n other words Oracle, we ACCEPTED Turkey's interference by agreeing to sit opposite them around a "Short" table. We even helped set up the Green Line and place soldiers of the National Guard in the promotion of an external border - "Oh look World, Cyprus is now officially divided and we are now known as Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots, as opposed to just being CYPRIOTS".

Labelling me as someone who would support Turkey's view is absolutely preposterous and illogical. Please read my words properly and understand that I am trying to AVOID PARTITION as how it's been since the invasion in 1974. Please do not look at BRITAIN FOR HELP, as do not forget their INVASION of Northern Ireland in the late 1970s and its incorporation with the present day United Kingdom. How hypocritical are they (The British) for even suggesting a federal plan like the former Annan Plan!

Similarly to our demands; of not producing a plan like the former ANNAN PLAN, the Turks have made it clear that their minimal conditions must include certain "Sensitivities".

I have said it before Oracle and WILL SAY IT AGAIN. If we, Greek Cypriots in Cyprus and abroad, do not convince our government and people of the harsh reality of COMPROMISE, then we will one day wake up to an island with two Republic states. I know I said it was a Myth, but it clearly will not be if the outcome of these talks fail due to our "No".

Therefore, I am all for compromise, especially after meeting with certain members of President Christofias' government, knowing that this compromise will include certain elements that we may not like. Please do NOT FORGET that the Turks are willing to sign almost anything that gives them some kind of Power-Sharing and rights of Intervention. Please refer back to the 1977 agreements of a Bi-Communal, Bi-Zonal federation.

We will lose if people like you Oracle continue to close its eyes on certain realities, as I am adamant that Turkey will again get its way as it has done with the recent Talat and Christofias' last meeting confirming their "UNITED FEDERAL" agreement. If we had our way, it would have clearly have been called the Republic of Cyprus only!

The Turks are mocking us Oracle, with their ultimate plan to get a "NO" in a future referendum on a plan that swings more to their needs.

Thus, what I suggest is - let the Turkish Cypriot Con State be the only part that would be guaranteed by Turkey, and not the entire island as it is TODAY!!!! Is that such a hard compromise, that it could not come from a Greek Cypriot - did Papadopolous NOT agree to the Annan Plan in NY in its early stages, which included more G-Rights for Turkey than what I have suggested?

Please Oracle, think about the Constitutional, historical, legal and practical aspects of your implications, as a "NO" from our side again will be disastrous!

As I have mentioned so many times in the past, if it's not a Compromise we are prepared to accept, then perhaps an AGREED PARTITION would be better. Our choices to you at the moment may seem limited, but think about it as if you are in the shoes of President Christofias. He is a very pragmatic individual, and one who has probably agreed with most of the parameters of a Cyprus unification plan with his old time friend Mehmet Talat. It's us that he's now trying to convince - think about how perfect the timing of his Presidential appointment was due to the damaging foreign attitude and policy of former President Tassos Papadopolous.

This new Unification process is Turkey's dream, please don't let Turkey finish it with icing on TOP!

Finally - So far, although President Christofias has said that he does not want to revive the former Annan Plan, do you not think the new title of the United "Federal" ROC appears to portray a firmer basis for Two states than the former Annan's "United Republic of Cyprus"? The Word "Federal", (like in America) in my book, strongly suggests two very separate entities, like two federated states (Ghalis' Set of Ideas perhaps?), while the "United" element in the former Annan Plan did at least appear more neutral!
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Postby Oracle » Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:29 pm

Andros wrote: The Cyprus issue must be viewed through the EYES of BOTH communities, and NOT one.

I disagree. This is precisely why the 1960 Constitution failed. Because it kept alive the partitionists' ideal of two ethnically different communities which must be given different degrees of power irrespective of the one-man one-vote allowed to prevail in other peaceful countries.

We even helped set up the Green Line


I think you will find we had no choice in this predetermined "line"

. Please do not look at BRITAIN FOR HELP,


I have never looked to Britain for help ... those are your words.

I look to the EU ... something which you suspiciously keep forgetting or trying to make the readers forget.

Please do NOT FORGET that the Turks are willing to sign almost anything that gives them some kind of Power-Sharing and rights of Intervention. Please refer back to the 1977 agreements of a Bi-Communal, Bi-Zonal federation.


Turkey holding us to ransom to fulfil its demand are precisely why the EU should take definite steps to start freeing us from their tyranny

The Turks are mocking us Oracle, with their ultimate plan to get a "NO" in a future referendum on a plan that swings more to their needs.


Futile coercion tactics Andros. Indicative of the "panic" atmosphere you are trying to create. :roll:

We should negotiate what suits the RoC, otherwise the EU will take affirmative action to end this hostage situation in its territory.

Thus, what I suggest is - let the Turkish Cypriot Con State be the only part that would be guaranteed by Turkey, and not the entire island as it is TODAY!!!! Is that such a hard compromise, that it could not come from a Greek Cypriot - did Papadopolous NOT agree to the Annan Plan in NY in its early stages, which included more G-Rights for Turkey than what I have suggested?


For the last time ... Turkey should have NO say in the future of a united Cyprus. Ultimately Papadopoulos rightly saw through the Annan proposals; and we must remain just as vigilant.

More so as Turkey gets desperate, clinging on with unfair unjust demands.

Please Oracle, think about the Constitutional, historical, legal and practical aspects of your implications, as a "NO" from our side again will be disastrous!


We'll say NO as many times as needs be, to get Turkey off our backs. Do you tell a rape victim eventually she must say yes?

Finally - So far, although President Christofias has said that he does not want to revive the former Annan Plan, do you not think the new title of the United "Federal" ROC appears to portray a firmer basis for Two states than the former Annan's "United Republic of Cyprus"? The Word "Federal", (like in America) in my book, strongly suggests two very separate entities, like two federated states (Ghalis' Set of Ideas perhaps?), while the "United" element in the former Annan Plan did at least appear more neutral!


This means nothing .. as unless the RoC is re-established with full Democratic rights within the EU .. I do not consider the EU as being at peace with Turkey.
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Postby Viewpoint » Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:35 pm

Andros wrote:Oracle,

You've clearly misunderstood my point!

What I am saying is that, unless Turkey's Guarantor issue is COMPROMISED, no Cyprus deal will be reached, thus it will lead to PARTITION as we know it - Understand?

This is the Reality Oracle - where UNFORTUNATELY, we seriously messed up immediately after 1974. The Cyprus issue must be viewed through the EYES of BOTH communities, and NOT one. This has always been its failure, and IS EXACTLY WHAT TURKEY IS SEEKING. After Turkey's Invasion in 1974, we simply accepted the UK's declaration of the ROC without the pariticipation of the northern Coccupied part and AGREED TO SIT DOWN AND NEGOCIATE a settlement plan - how ridiculous was that! Negotiate a NEW Settlement? n other words Oracle, we ACCEPTED Turkey's interference by agreeing to sit opposite them around a "Short" table. We even helped set up the Green Line and place soldiers of the National Guard in the promotion of an external border - "Oh look World, Cyprus is now officially divided and we are now known as Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots, as opposed to just being CYPRIOTS".

Labelling me as someone who would support Turkey's view is absolutely preposterous and illogical. Please read my words properly and understand that I am trying to AVOID PARTITION as how it's been since the invasion in 1974. Please do not look at BRITAIN FOR HELP, as do not forget their INVASION of Northern Ireland in the late 1970s and its incorporation with the present day United Kingdom. How hypocritical are they (The British) for even suggesting a federal plan like the former Annan Plan!

Similarly to our demands; of not producing a plan like the former ANNAN PLAN, the Turks have made it clear that their minimal conditions must include certain "Sensitivities".

I have said it before Oracle and WILL SAY IT AGAIN. If we, Greek Cypriots in Cyprus and abroad, do not convince our government and people of the harsh reality of COMPROMISE, then we will one day wake up to an island with two Republic states. I know I said it was a Myth, but it clearly will not be if the outcome of these talks fail due to our "No".

Therefore, I am all for compromise, especially after meeting with certain members of President Christofias' government, knowing that this compromise will include certain elements that we may not like. Please do NOT FORGET that the Turks are willing to sign almost anything that gives them some kind of Power-Sharing and rights of Intervention. Please refer back to the 1977 agreements of a Bi-Communal, Bi-Zonal federation.

We will lose if people like you Oracle continue to close its eyes on certain realities, as I am adamant that Turkey will again get its way as it has done with the recent Talat and Christofias' last meeting confirming their "UNITED FEDERAL" agreement. If we had our way, it would have clearly have been called the Republic of Cyprus only!

The Turks are mocking us Oracle, with their ultimate plan to get a "NO" in a future referendum on a plan that swings more to their needs.

Thus, what I suggest is - let the Turkish Cypriot Con State be the only part that would be guaranteed by Turkey, and not the entire island as it is TODAY!!!! Is that such a hard compromise, that it could not come from a Greek Cypriot - did Papadopolous NOT agree to the Annan Plan in NY in its early stages, which included more G-Rights for Turkey than what I have suggested?

Please Oracle, think about the Constitutional, historical, legal and practical aspects of your implications, as a "NO" from our side again will be disastrous!

As I have mentioned so many times in the past, if it's not a Compromise we are prepared to accept, then perhaps an AGREED PARTITION would be better. Our choices to you at the moment may seem limited, but think about it as if you are in the shoes of President Christofias. He is a very pragmatic individual, and one who has probably agreed with most of the parameters of a Cyprus unification plan with his old time friend Mehmet Talat. It's us that he's now trying to convince - think about how perfect the timing of his Presidential appointment was due to the damaging foreign attitude and policy of former President Tassos Papadopolous.

This new Unification process is Turkey's dream, please don't let Turkey finish it with icing on TOP!

Finally - So far, although President Christofias has said that he does not want to revive the former Annan Plan, do you not think the new title of the United "Federal" ROC appears to portray a firmer basis for Two states than the former Annan's "United Republic of Cyprus"? The Word "Federal", (like in America) in my book, strongly suggests two very separate entities, like two federated states (Ghalis' Set of Ideas perhaps?), while the "United" element in the former Annan Plan did at least appear more neutral!


Great post Andros, good to hear some GCs have common sense, but unfortunately you are fighting a losing battle the fanatic GCs will not allow you to compromise.
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Postby CopperLine » Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:57 pm

bill cobbett wrote:I dunno the "stick" - embargoes, non-recognition etc havn't got us terribly far in the past 30 odd years so I am starting to think that perhaps it's time to give the "carrot" approach a try.

As for guarantors:-

One tries to persist in treating Cy as a colony and to promote its interests and the interests of its allies there.
The second one overthrows an elected government.
The third one invades, killing thousands and occupies 1/3rd of the Island.

So been there, seen it, dunnit, - let's learn from the mistake of putting any more trust in this Unholy Trinity.


I'd strongly endorse billcobbett's refusal of any colonial relationship between not just UK, Greece and Turkey on the one hand and Cyprus on the other, but of any notion of 'guarantor power'. It is to give licence to interference in advance.
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Postby denizaksulu » Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:12 am

paliometoxo wrote:your right oracle, we dont need greece its the north that depends on tukey for everything, without turkey there would be no trnc they would all be bankrupt in a few years..

but now nicosia as agreed to let financial aid to the trnc from eu, u think once the south gives trnc money and helps them develope the trnc they will say oh lets re unite or say f u we are doing just fine in our trnc and tell us bye? tassos was right to squeeze them so they couldent breath, tighter.



Surely its not the RoC giving the north money, it is the EU.
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Postby BirKibrisli » Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:06 am

Andros....Welcome to the uncompromising world of Oracle...

Now which part of her agruments don't you understand????
We are where we are because Turks are vile and primitive people,and they get their kicks by kicking around poor GCs...The only trouble with Cyprus is her geography and her history...If we close our eyes and pray hard and long enough,eveything will just go away...Turkey,TCs,the British,Americans,Russians,Chinese...Enosis,Eoka,TMT,Makarios,Yorgadjis.Grivas.Denktash...the 1960 agreements,the RoC,the period 1963-74....it will all be a figment of our imaginations...When you open your eyes you will only have Cyprus and Greek Cypriots left in the entire world...Then we will have the perfect democracy like it was in the ancient Greece,and live happily ever after...Which part of this don't you understand...???? :wink: :roll:
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Postby repulsewarrior » Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:47 am

OP, the mistake is we never tried the Communal Chamber, no Greek Cypriot reresentative presented themselves there ever. So the experiment for identifying people as Persons as well as Individuals (Bicommunal) was never attempted, how can we really say it didn't work. At 52, I was too young to remember the politics that was the advent. But I remember the picture of Kutcuk on the wall in the cafe were my grandfather took his coffee. As "Greeks" we have a historical animosity with the "Turks", this is quite a fashion, not unlike others in a swill of many many millions. Yet before the Modern Age we lived in villages mostly, isolated, self sufficient, there were traditions which had evolved over several hundred years which allowed for the expression of cooperation in all our productivity, economic and social, quite different to the respective 'motherlands'. As a Cypriot, I have no hate. I have the feeling of Goodwill that comes from living with good neighbours for so long who have the same respect for Grace as I do. This was uprooted, trashed, as it had been ten years before to those profiled as "Turks". Thus, as a Cypriot, I have the anxiety of being patient, kind, and giving, just the same. I have the Hope in Mankind, which for the first time in our history, had the power to grant us an end to our subjugation as a People. I have the fear that this stupidity will not be thrown off, we will continue in this politic as adversaries because it is too easy, where the violence and the intolerance will have in us an expression as well, without the change we must embrace within ourselves toward our betterment, as Human souls. But most of all I am happy because I have reason, and I am willing to serve my life this way, although non-religious, having a strong gnostic Faith

paliometoxo, if TPap thought he could squeeze 'money', wouldn't it be wise for 'him' to give more and more 'money'? ...when donkeys are trained you give them a long rope, and you do not "starve" them for them to learn they are tied (and to follow the rope). TPap knows this, why did he let Turkey treat Turkish Cypriots like donkeys, after about thirty years, he finally had his chance to use the 'money', to feed the interests of Turkish Cypriots, so to speak. The point is Cypriots are not "Greek" or "Turk", their Government must represent this so that their Governance can reflect Principals that are Universal, in its identity, our representation toward their betterment. Turkey will accept nothing less. We should accept nothing less for ourselves as well. And we can provide no better appreciation of our respect for this beautiful island and the wealth it has as a Heritance, for the greater Family of Man. For whatever reason, the Problem has been pushed further to a brink.

...the Gates are open now. We meet, we speak, and we are learning to be civil with each other all over again.

Now we are ready, I believe, to be more objective in our intentions. Our central government is strong; although in need of reform it represents a courage which even while dysfunctional works, demonstating excellence as a provider, in the larger context of a State as a member in a larger Union. 'We' have strengthened 'our' infrastructure politically and with self representation, bureaucraticly. Now it is time for the "Greeks" to form their self representation in a National Assembly, just like their counterpart the "Turks", having the Jurisdiction to serve its electorate within a territory of many parts which is defined as a "Zone". It is time for the "Turks" to accept the challange of putting their fielty in the Rule of Law in a United Republic of Cyprus without the need for a sufficiency.

...Andros, you speak well, but why (or where) do you use(get) the word "Federal", I have not seen the President quoted as saying anything more than United, and a Republic.

my whole adult life as a Political-Economist has been a nightmare. so few have read the books which makes this science important. politics is my life, as is Cyprus, and for those who know me (lol) it is in my blood. nothing is wrong with extremism, as we recently learned from the Amish, it is our acts, to choose, to be the master, and for a cause which serves a higher purpose, the way, without enmity except against real enemies like Hunger and Disease, or Ignorance, it is enough to have Charity.

...now will you take the time to post a comment in 'that' thread, having taken the time to think through the Manifesto as a proposal which is futuristic, that it embeds within its divided geography what may be jewels as enclaves, so that we can define Bizonal, with National Assemblies for their governance, citizens will as Persons choose what to provide for themselves in an expession of inclusiveness, while as Individuals they are United, with a Republic to defend their Rights.
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Postby Muzzy70 » Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:07 pm

An interesting thread this with the suggestion that both constituent states be guaranteed seperately by Greece and Turkey, being most workable in my opinion. 650 Turkish troops in the north and 950 Greek in the south. No problem. All troops, possibly, to leave the island following Turkey's accession to the EU. I will post a topic about the future of the British bases but it's clearly now time for President Talat and President Christofias to tell the UK that there is no longer any justification for a continued British presence on the island, particularly in the event of a settlement.
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Postby Oracle » Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:11 pm

BirKibrisli wrote:Andros....Welcome to the uncompromising world of Oracle...

Now which part of her agruments don't you understand????
We are where we are because Turks are vile and primitive people,and they get their kicks by kicking around poor GCs...The only trouble with Cyprus is her geography and her history...If we close our eyes and pray hard and long enough,eveything will just go away...Turkey,TCs,the British,Americans,Russians,Chinese...Enosis,Eoka,TMT,Makarios,Yorgadjis.Grivas.Denktash...the 1960 agreements,the RoC,the period 1963-74....it will all be a figment of our imaginations...When you open your eyes you will only have Cyprus and Greek Cypriots left in the entire world...Then we will have the perfect democracy like it was in the ancient Greece,and live happily ever after...Which part of this don't you understand...???? :wink: :roll:


I don't think the Turks are primitive :roll:
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