Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

Now that you have finished arguing this from a GC angle can you try and see it from this side of the fence for a change? give us your views on the large scale developments on disputed land and people who have build their lives on land they exchanged if the property they surrendered is worth much more in the south.

VP, do you realize that you have already usurped, utilized and cemented Greek Cypriot land in the north, far beyond the value of all the Turkish Cypriot land relinquished in the south? Do you realize this fact, or you do not? Do you realize that the real estate value of all the entire coastlines of Kyrenia, Famagusta bay and Karpas peninsula that you have so senselessly cemented, and which in their overwhelming majority belong to GCs, probably equate to as much as 20%-25% of the total real estate value of all the private properties in Cyprus? Do you realize that the real estate value of all the TC properties relinquished in the south, and is owned by TCs that moved to the north after 1974 (excluding those that moved abroad and never made to the north,) does not exceed 7%-8% of the total value of private properties, and already there is a huge gap of some tens of billions of Euros between what is left behind in the south by TCs and what is being used (developed) from the GC properties in the north? Do you realize what you did and what you are still doing, or you do not?

What is your source of information that enables you to arrive at the %s above? did the TRNC give you some officials we know nothing about? Please reveal your source otherwise your figures are pure fairy tales. Why is it fine for you to senselessly cement up Limasol but not for us to do the same in Kyrenia, if we are not allowed to develop naturally we will use all means available you have only yourselves to blame, we cannot be held hostage waiting for GCs to share the island.

[Kifeas]

Kikapu says;

Any land other than the one donum that the GC house sits on, that land can be returned back to the GC's immediately no matter what the TC family paid for it.

It will be no concern of the GC owner who pays the TC family for that land.

There is a good chance, that the GC land was given to the TC family in the "exchange", so they have not paid any money that they will lose.

As for those who came to Cyprus from abroad to get rich on GC land in the north, should seek compensation from the person who sold them the GC land, and all the land and property should be returned to the GC owners within 12 months if its a dwelling, and immediately, if it's just a bare land, unless they too want to make a deal with the GC owners.

This talk by Talat that GC land has changed too many hands and it is difficult to return the land is a bunch of crap.

where the last one who is standing without a chair to sit on, because there is one chair less than people going around in a circle, and if I may put it delicately, will be "shit out of luck". The tenth and the last person who bought the property can go and sue the person who sold him a GC property and so they go all the way down the "totem pole" until it reaches the steps of the former "TRNC". The GC owner does not get involved in this at all. It will not be his problem.

Sounds very one sided to me and many others, you display a GC viewpoint everytime and have conveniently forgotten about my question of invesments on disputed land for example 20million pund hotel, will you give that back to the GC?

VP, cut the crab! What Kikapu talks about makes perfect sense, and is not the GC viewpoint, but the viewpoint of all national and international courts worldwide as well, including that of the ECtHR!

First of all, with all the cheap construction labor from Turkey (average salary of 10 euros per day,) and all the bad quality of construction work in the north, I doubt it very much that you have ever built a hotel in the north that cost anywhere near 20 million pounds, unless if you are talking about Turkish Liras! Secondly, some of the land in which you have built hotels does worth as much as 20 million Cyprus pounds! Anywhere around Cyprus’ coastlines, the average value of land per donum (with today’s international market values,) worth between 200-300 thousand Cyprus pounds, regardless of how cheaply you give away land to foreigners in the north, especially if this is owned by GCs!

[denizaksulu]

Talat's version of UNIFICATION.!!!??? He wants everything what he wants, but no mention of what the GC's want. Even on the property issues, he only offers what suits him and nobody else. Unless he climbs down his ivory tower of arrogance and starts negotiating on finding peace, he will soon be kicked out of office and replaced with a Denktash type, which will bury any hopes for the TC's to improve their lives, because the status quo will remain, and the EU dreams of the TC's and Turkey will be just a mirage, and the likelihood of future wars will become a reality. So Mr Talat, start using your head and not your Red Lines to find peace, or else it will be those same Red Lines that will be prevent your people to move forward into the EU, the West and for a better future.

Hi Kikapu.


Pt of Interview relating to the properties of refugees:


EuroNews: "How about the property issue? because this is another important topic."

Mehmet Ali Talat: "Property issue will be solved in terms of either compensations, or exchange or restitution. There are three options. And an agreement will have provisions regarding this issue."

First I am not happy about the way the interview was conducted. Talats answers were not 'confidence inspiring', except for the properties issue.

Do you see any other alternative to his three 'offers'?

What other realistic alternatives are there, considering most of the land on the Northern coast has been sadly concreted over?

I once asked GR this while looking at the concrete jungle below us. I do not recall his answer, if any.

Hi Deniz,

Talat used the words compensations, or exchange or restitution but not right of return.Restitution can mean that if one wants to stretch the word, but it can also mean compensation. It's not unusual for politician to use different words meaning the same thing.

The property issue is one of the contentious issues in this settlement. If we are going to have a True Federation and not a Confederation under BBF, then every Cypriot will be free to return to their home villages if they choose to. They will also have the right to claim their land and properties back when ever possible, which means, that any public works projects such as roads, schools, hospitals government building and so on built on any GC land, can only be compensated with today's market value. The RoC government would need to compensate the TC's for the loss of their land in the south, at today's market price also.

I made this provision on my peace plan last year, and that was, any TC family occupying a GC home in the north should not be forced out of the place they have been living for the last 30+ years, but they should be given the first option to buy the place from it's original owners, at today's market price. If the TC's family can pay for it , or trade land in the south if they have some, or sell their land in the south and pay the GC owner of the house from that money. Perhaps a time frame can be set up, say 12 months or so, for the TC family to get their finances together to complete the deal with the GC owner. The TC family and the GC owner can arrange what ever deal they want between themselves. If it's apparent from the beginning that the TC family is not going to be able to come up with the money, then they will need to vacate the place within 12 months.

But of course, there may be a GC house as well as GC land (over 1 donum) all in the same place, because of this "exchange" program. Any land other than the one donum that the GC house sits on, that land can be returned back to the GC's immediately no matter what the TC family paid for it. It will be no concern of the GC owner who pays the TC family for that land. There is a good chance, that the GC land was given to the TC family in the "exchange", so they have not paid any money that they will lose. But lets take my cousin's husband's case. He bought lots of GC land at £20 per donum, but claims they are worth £3,000 per donum now. All of that land must be returned back to their original GC owners at no cost, and if any money needs to be paid to the husband, it can only be £20 per donum plus interest or nothing at all. He knew that he was buying GC land, hence the fact that it was DIRT cheap.

As for those who came to Cyprus from abroad to get rich on GC land in the north, should seek compensation from the person who sold them the GC land, and all the land and property should be returned to the GC owners within 12 months if its a dwelling, and immediately, if it's just a bare land, unless they too want to make a deal with the GC owners. This talk by Talat that GC land has changed too many hands and it is difficult to return the land is a bunch of crap. Even if it changed hands 10 times, they all knew the risks they were taking, so whats going to happen more than likely, just like in the game of "musical chairs" where the last one who is standing without a chair to sit on, because there is one chair less than people going around in a circle, and if I may put it delicately, will be "shit out of luck". The tenth and the last person who bought the property can go and sue the person who sold him a GC property and so they go all the way down the "totem pole" until it reaches the steps of the former "TRNC". The GC owner does not get involved in this at all. It will not be his problem. All the same rules will apply to TC land and property occupied by GC families in the south.

So Deniz, my bottom line is, if it's a dwelling where people are living in them, then they should be given the first option to buy the property at today price so to limit the number of people that will need to look for other places to live. This may not be what the GC may want, but some degree of compromise will need to be made to show good will and understanding. In the end, the TC's and GC's will make better neighbours than forcing people to move at any cost. My guess is, most will not be able to afford the price of today's cost, therefore they will move out. On the other hand, I do not expect too many GC's wanting to move to the north, so they will just simply take ownership of their properties, and rent them out to the TC families, to those who were not able to buy it in the first place. Same deal with commercial buildings and hotels.

Thanks for your lengthy response Kikapu. What a mess. It seems you are willing to accept that many TCs will be left homeless, as they will not be able to afford the current prices. Who will home these people. They would be in their 60+ years with little or no savings. Who should rehouse them?

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu says;

Any land other than the one donum that the GC house sits on, that land can be returned back to the GC's immediately no matter what the TC family paid for it.

It will be no concern of the GC owner who pays the TC family for that land.

There is a good chance, that the GC land was given to the TC family in the "exchange", so they have not paid any money that they will lose.

As for those who came to Cyprus from abroad to get rich on GC land in the north, should seek compensation from the person who sold them the GC land, and all the land and property should be returned to the GC owners within 12 months if its a dwelling, and immediately, if it's just a bare land, unless they too want to make a deal with the GC owners.

This talk by Talat that GC land has changed too many hands and it is difficult to return the land is a bunch of crap.

where the last one who is standing without a chair to sit on, because there is one chair less than people going around in a circle, and if I may put it delicately, will be "shit out of luck". The tenth and the last person who bought the property can go and sue the person who sold him a GC property and so they go all the way down the "totem pole" until it reaches the steps of the former "TRNC". The GC owner does not get involved in this at all. It will not be his problem.

Sounds very one sided to me and many others, you display a GC viewpoint everytime and have conveniently forgotten about my question of invesments on disputed land for example 20million pund hotel, will you give that back to the GC?

VP, cut the crab! What Kikapu talks about makes perfect sense, and is not the GC viewpoint, but the viewpoint of all national and international courts worldwide as well, including that of the ECtHR!

First of all, with all the cheap construction labor from Turkey (average salary of 10 euros per day,) and all the bad quality of construction work in the north, I doubt it very much that you have ever built a hotel in the north that coasted anywhere near 20 million pounds, unless if you are talking about Turkish Liras! Secondly, some of the land in which you have built hotels does worth as much as 20 million Cyprus pounds! Anywhere around Cyprus’ coastlines, the average value of land per donum (with today’s international market values,) worth between 200-300 thousand Cyprus pounds, regardless of how cheaply you give away land to foreigners in the north, especially if this is owned by GCs!

Have you been to the following hotels?

Artemis
Colony
Malpas
Mercure
Merit come to mind.

Daily wage is 40 euro a day for unskilled labour.

You are right international presidents allows the current occupier first option to buy out previous occupiers eg Poland. That means the large investsments will pay off the GC, which is how imo most of the cases will be settled. The majority of TCs have given up land in the south so they can sell it off to pay the previous occupiers who can buy wherever they wish.

[Kikapu]

Kikapu says;

Any land other than the one donum that the GC house sits on, that land can be returned back to the GC's immediately no matter what the TC family paid for it.

It will be no concern of the GC owner who pays the TC family for that land.

There is a good chance, that the GC land was given to the TC family in the "exchange", so they have not paid any money that they will lose.

As for those who came to Cyprus from abroad to get rich on GC land in the north, should seek compensation from the person who sold them the GC land, and all the land and property should be returned to the GC owners within 12 months if its a dwelling, and immediately, if it's just a bare land, unless they too want to make a deal with the GC owners.

This talk by Talat that GC land has changed too many hands and it is difficult to return the land is a bunch of crap.

where the last one who is standing without a chair to sit on, because there is one chair less than people going around in a circle, and if I may put it delicately, will be "shit out of luck". The tenth and the last person who bought the property can go and sue the person who sold him a GC property and so they go all the way down the "totem pole" until it reaches the steps of the former "TRNC". The GC owner does not get involved in this at all. It will not be his problem.

Sounds very one sided to me and many others, you display a GC viewpoint everytime and have conveniently forgotten about my question of invesments on disputed land for example 20million pund hotel, will you give that back to the GC?

That seems to be your problem VP, in that you always see anything that does not conform to your ideas in violating Democratic and Human Rights of others, as being "one sided" against you. With those ideas, there can never be "two sides" for you, therefore we are use to your constant denial of the truth, and that, acceptance of the truth will be your first step forward in becoming an
"honest citizen" of the "new" future Cyprus, or else you will continue peddling your "fascistic views" which betrays the basic principles of humanity to those who have been wronged in the Cyprus conflict. The chose is yours to make.

I don't know what £20 million investment that I have forgotten to mention, since you did not ask it in the first place, or was I expected to read your mind on that one. But now that you have asked the question, nothing really changes from what I've already stated.

So lets look at your £20 million hotel question that was built on GC land. What has changed, nothing.!! The land still belongs to the GC and the hotel owner will get the first option to buy the land that the hotel sits on. As Kifeas already mentioned, it is very possible, that the land may be worth as much as the structure on it. The option would be for the TC to buy the land, or become joint owners with the GC land owner, or walk away from his investment and knock the building down, or sell the building to the GC land owner, or rent the land from the GC owner. There are many options. The only option he does not have, is not turning the land over to it's rightful owners if he does not meet any of the above options. Just because the "TRNC" gave the hotel owner the green light to purchase and build on GC land without the GC owners permission, was entirely desicion made with risks involved, and he took them. What can I say to such people who were more interested in profiteering from the
"spoils of war" than having principles and pushing for peace. I can assure you, this hotel owner is not interested in any kind of peace at all, since greed has corrupted his morals. What can I say VP, sometimes "that's the way the cookie crumbles"..!!

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu says;

Any land other than the one donum that the GC house sits on, that land can be returned back to the GC's immediately no matter what the TC family paid for it.

It will be no concern of the GC owner who pays the TC family for that land.

There is a good chance, that the GC land was given to the TC family in the "exchange", so they have not paid any money that they will lose.

As for those who came to Cyprus from abroad to get rich on GC land in the north, should seek compensation from the person who sold them the GC land, and all the land and property should be returned to the GC owners within 12 months if its a dwelling, and immediately, if it's just a bare land, unless they too want to make a deal with the GC owners.

This talk by Talat that GC land has changed too many hands and it is difficult to return the land is a bunch of crap.

where the last one who is standing without a chair to sit on, because there is one chair less than people going around in a circle, and if I may put it delicately, will be "shit out of luck". The tenth and the last person who bought the property can go and sue the person who sold him a GC property and so they go all the way down the "totem pole" until it reaches the steps of the former "TRNC". The GC owner does not get involved in this at all. It will not be his problem.

Sounds very one sided to me and many others, you display a GC viewpoint everytime and have conveniently forgotten about my question of invesments on disputed land for example 20million pund hotel, will you give that back to the GC?

That seems to be your problem VP, in that you always see anything that does not conform to your ideas in violating Democratic and Human Rights of others, as being "one sided" against you. With those ideas, there can never be "two sides" for you, therefore we are use to your constant denial of the truth, and that, acceptance of the truth will be your first step forward in becoming an
"honest citizen" of the "new" future Cyprus, or else you will continue peddling your "fascistic views" which betrays the basic principles of humanity to those who have been wronged in the Cyprus conflict. The chose is yours to make.

I don't know what £20 million investment that I have forgotten to mention, since you did not ask it in the first place, or was I expected to read your mind on that one. But now that you have asked the question, nothing really changes from what I've already stated.

So lets look at your £20 million hotel question that was built on GC land. What has changed, nothing.!! The land still belongs to the GC and the hotel owner will get the first option to buy the land that the hotel sits on. As Kifeas already mentioned, it is very possible, that the land may be worth as much as the structure on it. The option would be for the TC to buy the land, or become joint owners with the GC land owner, or walk away from his investment and knock the building down, or sell the building to the GC land owner, or rent the land from the GC owner. There are many options. The only option he does not have, is not turning the land over to it's rightful owners if he does not meet any of the above options. Just because the "TRNC" gave the hotel owner the green light to purchase and build on GC land without the GC owners permission, was entirely desicion made with risks involved, and he took them. What can I say to such people who were more interested in profiteering from the
"spoils of war" than having principles and pushing for peace. I can assure you, this hotel owner is not interested in any kind of peace at all, since greed has corrupted his morals. What can I say VP, sometimes "that's the way the cookie crumbles"..!!

I have what I want from both you and Kifeas, that the first option is with the current occupier, this is very important for us because the majority of TCs who have land in the south will sell up and buy out the GC or find the financing to settle the deal, if not they can give it back, that's the compromise for the TC but will the GCs accept the compromise that they will more than likely not get their land back?

[Kikapu]

Thanks for your lengthy response Kikapu. What a mess. It seems you are willing to accept that many TCs will be left homeless, as they will not be able to afford the current prices. Who will home these people. They would be in their 60+ years with little or no savings. Who should rehouse them?

My pleasure Deniz.

Yes, it is a mess.!!

Deniz, please help me out here to understand what you said, that the TC's who will not be able to buy the house and the land that it sits on from the legal GC owner will become homeless. Surely you are not saying, that anyone who does not own a house, are homeless, because only about 30% of Swiss are home owners and the other 70% are not homeless on the streets, but they live very comfortably by renting. The same will be for those TC's also. There is a good chance they will be able to rent directly from the GC owner, or move to another dwelling in another part of the village or town where the marketplace will determine who can afford what and where they end up living, as the case is everywhere in the Democratic world, so I reject your notion to put me in an unsympathetic light in trying to make some TC's in becoming homeless and on the streets. This is where their leaders will need to find a solution for them, since they had created the problem in the first place by allowing "ownership" of GC properties that could never meet any legal scrutiny. Then again, peace was never on the agenda at the time these decisions were made to give away the GC properties, therefore need of legal scrutiny was not necessary.

While we are on the subject of homelessness, I remember few months ago where the Greek orthodox church was even proposing in building places for TC's to stay once they have vacated the GC properties. Lets see if this will materialize and whether or not the TC leadership can also do their best to satisfy those TC's who will need to vacate GC properties.

Vacating GC properties does not = homeless and on the streets for the TC's.!!!

[Viewpoint]

Thanks for your lengthy response Kikapu. What a mess. It seems you are willing to accept that many TCs will be left homeless, as they will not be able to afford the current prices. Who will home these people. They would be in their 60+ years with little or no savings. Who should rehouse them?

My pleasure Deniz.

Yes, it is a mess.!!

Deniz, please help me out here to understand what you said, that the TC's who will not be able to buy the house and the land that it sits on from the legal GC owner will become homeless. Surely you are not saying, that anyone who does not own a house, are homeless, because only about 30% of Swiss are home owners and the other 70% are not homeless on the streets, but they live very comfortably by renting. The same will be for those TC's also. There is a good chance they will be able to rent directly from the GC owner, or move to another dwelling in another part of the village or town where the marketplace will determine who can afford what and where they end up living, as the case is everywhere in the Democratic world, so I reject your notion to put me in an unsympathetic light in trying to make some TC's in becoming homeless and on the streets. This is where their leaders will need to find a solution for them, since they had created the problem in the first place by allowing "ownership" of GC properties that could never meet any legal scrutiny. Then again, peace was never on the agenda at the time these decisions were made to give away the GC properties, therefore need of legal scrutiny was not necessary.

While we are on the subject of homelessness, I remember few months ago where the Greek orthodox church was even proposing in building places for TC's to stay once they have vacated the GC properties. Lets see if this will materialize and whether or not the TC leadership can also do their best to satisfy those TC's who will need to vacate GC properties.

Vacating GC properties does not = homeless and on the streets for the TC's.!!!

It will if GCs are given the power to just throw TCs out, that's why the first option should be given tot he TC to purchase the Land they have been given, that will allow TCs to sell up south and pay the GC.

[Kikapu]

I have what I want from both you and Kifeas, that the first option is with the current occupier, this is very important for us because the majority of TCs who have land in the south will sell up and buy out the GC or find the financing to settle the deal, if not they can give it back, that's the compromise for the TC but will the GCs accept the compromise that they will more than likely not get their land back?

Well, I don't know about what Kifea's meant, but let me reinstate what I said. I'm talking about TC families who are occupying GC properties that should be given the options to buy first , and was not talking about the settlers with your "current occupier" comment above. Compromise is going to be a two way street to work. The settlers will need to make their own deals seperate from the offer made to the TC's. Where it comes to the settlers, then the GC's should get the "first choice". Also VP, I made it very clear in my post to Deniz, that the TC's "first option" deal only apply to structures built on GC land, and not the GC land that is empty, be it be in commercial zone or agricultural land. These lands will have an automatic return to their legal GC owners no matter how much investment is lost by those who took the gamble in purchasing GC land. This way it will allow GC's to rebuild on their land in the north if they wish to and not be forced to sell just to keep the north "pure Turkish", because that will not be unifying the island, but ethnically dividing the island, you know, much like what it is today, which what I thought was the reason to have peace talks in re-uniting the island.

[Kikapu]

It will if GCs are given the power to just throw TCs out, that's why the first option should be given tot he TC to purchase the Land they have been given, that will allow TCs to sell up south and pay the GC.

"First Option" offer for the TC's occupying GC properties in the north as follows:

GC owned structures and the "land" that it sits on..........................YES.!!

GC owned land that has no structures on it....................................NO.!!