Cyprus-Forum.com

[paliometoxo]

Though Turkey had consistently refused to recognize Makarios or his Government as legitimate, it claimed that under the provisions of the 1960 Treaty of Guarantee which provided that Greece, Turkey and United Kingdom would ensure the independence and sovereignty of the Republic of Cyprus, it had the right to take unilateral military action purportedly to restore constitutional order. No international body or organ has recognised this position.
Today, Turkey states that in 1963 the Republic of Cyprus had collapsed, however claims that the Treaty of Guarantee of 1960, gave her the right to intervene as a guaranteeing power in 1974. Article Four of the Treaty of Guarantee states that: "each of the three guaranteeing Powers reserves the right to take action with the sole aim of re-establishing the state of affairs created by the present Treaty.” [1]
Article Four of the Treaty of Guarantee refers to the right of intervention, however it does not refer to military intervention because according to the United Nations Charter, no state has the right to intervene militarily in another state without the consent of the UN Security Council.[2]

[Oracle]

As extreme as some may accuse me of being ... I know (even I) that I am completely comfortable with a TC or even Turk (derived) President of the RoC so long as they were true to the ideals of the RoC and were voted in to position by Democratic means.

Cyprus has a right to survive independently ... it is not for a desire to be exclusionist but for a desire to allow the individuality of the atmosphere and ethos of the island to pervade even if and despite of being so small amidst a world of giants populated by millions (e.g. Turkey) that wish to annihilate the small player by virtue of size and not clout.

And just as none of us want to see the giants like MacDonald, Starbucks, Sainsbury take over and create a monoclonal High Street and wish the interesting independent small retailers to survive for that personal touch ... so little Cyprus should be allowed to exist independently adding spicy interest to globalisation caused by Super-sized countries (like bloody Turkey ).

[Kikapu]

Kikapu, in an ideal world, what you say is fine and true. But trying to get rid of ethnicity at the click of a finger just won't happen. Regardless of what you say and how you put it, the TC's just do not believe that they will be treated in a fair and democratic way. Suspicion and mis-trust will always be on the back of their minds (and let me just say that the same may well apply to the GC's in that they are also suspicious and mis-trust the TC's just as much)

Even if you get rid of all political parties as you say, the forming of a new party or parties will have the same squables. Can you see the left for example picking a TC (Talat) to be the head rather than a GC (Christofias) ? As much as you and I would like to believe this can be so, I just cannot see either side buying into this. It will take many many years (of living together in peace) before this can come about.

It will take time 74LB, but yes, I can see it happening. If we can spend 50 years of non cooperation between the ethnic groups, then we can start the clock right now and give ourselves some time to get the Cypriotness going forward. You have to start at some point 74LB, or else it will never get done. The fact that there will be TC's in each of the political parties, is the best insurance that policies are not made that will harm certain groups. If a Black man can become a President, why not a right TC politician. It will take time, but time is all we have for the people to start working together, if we have honesty from all sides and not with something like the 2004 AP with lots of hidden agendas, which was to create division and not cohesion.

[DT.]

Kikapu, in an ideal world, what you say is fine and true. But trying to get rid of ethnicity at the click of a finger just won't happen. Regardless of what you say and how you put it, the TC's just do not believe that they will be treated in a fair and democratic way. Suspicion and mis-trust will always be on the back of their minds (and let me just say that the same may well apply to the GC's in that they are also suspicious and mis-trust the TC's just as much)

Even if you get rid of all political parties as you say, the forming of a new party or parties will have the same squables. Can you see the left for example picking a TC (Talat) to be the head rather than a GC (Christofias) ? As much as you and I would like to believe this can be so, I just cannot see either side buying into this. It will take many many years (of living together in peace) before this can come about.

It will take time 74LB, but yes, I can see it happening. If we can spend 50 years of non cooperation between the ethnic groups, then we can start the clock right now and give ourselves some time to get the Cypriotness going forward. You have to start at some point 74LB, or else it will never get done. The fact that there will be TC's in each of the political parties, is the best insurance that policies are not made that will harm certain groups. If a Black man can become a President, why not a right TC politician. It will take time, but time is all we have for the people to start working together, if we have honesty from all sides and not with something like the 2004 AP with lots of hidden agendas, which was to create division and not cohesion.

I am willing to bet that AKEL would pick a TC as a leader in no time if they could!

[Viewpoint]

I for one would accept democracy as you described it, and one-man one-vote is common place throughout the world. BUT, and this is where we tend to go round in circles.....

The TC's believe that in a one-man one-vote scenario, we (the TC's) will get shafted each and every time (in decisions that primarily affect the TC community).
Many people have come to this forum and said something like 'but hold, on, with 18-20% of the population you can be a very strong force, you will always be able to influence decisions' etc etc. But the crux of the matter is, the TC's don't believe this will happen. The belief is that voting will primarily be along ethnic lines, and the minorities will lose out each and every time. If you can allay these fears, then a truly acceptable solution will always be within reach.

Each persons priority is different.
Some want their land back so they can move back home. Some would rather have compensations for their land and stay where they are.
Some want all foreign troops to leave, and some would like them to stay.
Some talk of guarantor powers, some say never again.

I for one, am sure that all the above can be resolved to the satisfaction of the majority. But the biggest stumbling block (imo) is the view that one-man one-vote will be used against the TC's each and every time.

I disagree with you 74LB. The only reason people will vote along ethnic lines, if they are divided along ethnic lines. If on the other hand, we have a truly united island, then people will vote on political ideological lines. This is why I would support doing away with all the political parties in Cyprus and form 3 main new ones, the Right, the Centrist and the Left, and let all Cypriots, regardless of their ethnicity belong to who they best align themselves with politically. This is how it works in the rest of the Democratic world. Party members are elected by their local constituents, which means you are going to have TC's and GC's in each and every of the main 3 parties. Therefore you are not going to have 80% V's 20%, but rather you are going to have the Right V's the Centrist V's the Left and all the other small ones which will play important part in forming a coalition.

Can you imagine a GC running for President also has a TC as a vice President, or vise versa. This will also give a good chance for a TC to become a President, elected directly or in the event of GC president leaving office before his time was due for many reasons. If Barak Obama can become the next President of the United States as a black man whose ethnic group make up only 10% of the United states, whose heritage goes back to slavery, then there is absolutely no reason why the TC's can't trust True Democracy. By having 2 states, north and south, and the TC's being the majority in the north in a True Federation, each states will also have certain rights that the Federal Government cannot interfere, as long as they are not in violation of any one's Human and Democratic Rights. The protection of all citizens will be protected by the Federal Government. I'm sorry, but I do not buy this voting by a block to vote anything that will be against the "minorities" in the country by the majority, and lets not forget, that we are also in the EU and not in some third world country for God sake.

What if they do block vote? we cannot leave this to chance just because you think there will not be a problem, there has to be an effective system that will not allow this to happen. Its ok for GCs as they have the upper hand with 80% of the vote which puts us in a very risky situation.

[Piratis]

We are talking about Cyprus ....Once upon a time There was a republic in Cyprus That TC's and GC's were partner !
we all know how it is established and why it is established ?we all know why it is destroyed ?
Thats things are different in Cyprus situations .There is no ways ?

Once upon a time there was the Cypriot people that was ruled by foreigners (Turks, British etc) who forced various crap on us, and the Cypriot people resisted and fought for their freedom and self determination.

The same thing continues today, and will continue for as long as the Turks and some others think that Cyprus is same special case where human rights and democracy can not be applied because it doesn't suit them.

Because you managed to force inequality and racism on our loss in the past this doesn't mean you will always be allowed to do it. We have the right to fight for what is right, and this is what we will continue to do.

So Halis, do you accept political equality as discribed in the documented I quoted above? Do you accept democracy where one person has one vote? Do you accept human rights for all? Do you accept that everybody should be allowed to live on his own land?

It is up to you if you will accept what is right and just so we can finally end this war. Don't hope that this war will end with us signing away our lands and rights to you.

I for one would accept democracy as you described it, and one-man one-vote is common place throughout the world. BUT, and this is where we tend to go round in circles.....

The TC's believe that in a one-man one-vote scenario, we (the TC's) will get shafted each and every time (in decisions that primarily affect the TC community).
Many people have come to this forum and said something like 'but hold, on, with 18-20% of the population you can be a very strong force, you will always be able to influence decisions' etc etc. But the crux of the matter is, the TC's don't believe this will happen. The belief is that voting will primarily be along ethnic lines, and the minorities will lose out each and every time. If you can allay these fears, then a truly acceptable solution will always be within reach.

Each persons priority is different.
Some want their land back so they can move back home. Some would rather have compensations for their land and stay where they are.
Some want all foreign troops to leave, and some would like them to stay.
Some talk of guarantor powers, some say never again.

I for one, am sure that all the above can be resolved to the satisfaction of the majority. But the biggest stumbling block (imo) is the view that one-man one-vote will be used against the TC's each and every time.

74LB, as long as there is no forced segregation there are very few things that can affect the TC community differently: Language, religion, culture and interpretation of history. Beyond that the TCs and GCs are the same and each citizen will vote based on his ideology and interests.

All of the above can be arranged quite easily without harming the human rights of anybody and without violating any of the main democratic principles. If there is any other minor particularity of TCs (e.g. there are proportionately much more TCs in certain professions), this can be arranged as well. Beyond these the only other logical fear that the TCs can have is that they are currently, on average, poorer than GCs and this could be a problem for them in a unified free market economy. If TCs agreed to a true unification and a true democracy then I would be more than happy if the solution agreement included measures by the Cyprus goverment and EU to bring the TC community up to the standards of the GC community within a period of some years.

Anything else for denying human rights and democracy is cheap excuses and you know it.

[Kikapu]

I for one would accept democracy as you described it, and one-man one-vote is common place throughout the world. BUT, and this is where we tend to go round in circles.....

The TC's believe that in a one-man one-vote scenario, we (the TC's) will get shafted each and every time (in decisions that primarily affect the TC community).
Many people have come to this forum and said something like 'but hold, on, with 18-20% of the population you can be a very strong force, you will always be able to influence decisions' etc etc. But the crux of the matter is, the TC's don't believe this will happen. The belief is that voting will primarily be along ethnic lines, and the minorities will lose out each and every time. If you can allay these fears, then a truly acceptable solution will always be within reach.

Each persons priority is different.
Some want their land back so they can move back home. Some would rather have compensations for their land and stay where they are.
Some want all foreign troops to leave, and some would like them to stay.
Some talk of guarantor powers, some say never again.

I for one, am sure that all the above can be resolved to the satisfaction of the majority. But the biggest stumbling block (imo) is the view that one-man one-vote will be used against the TC's each and every time.

I disagree with you 74LB. The only reason people will vote along ethnic lines, if they are divided along ethnic lines. If on the other hand, we have a truly united island, then people will vote on political ideological lines. This is why I would support doing away with all the political parties in Cyprus and form 3 main new ones, the Right, the Centrist and the Left, and let all Cypriots, regardless of their ethnicity belong to who they best align themselves with politically. This is how it works in the rest of the Democratic world. Party members are elected by their local constituents, which means you are going to have TC's and GC's in each and every of the main 3 parties. Therefore you are not going to have 80% V's 20%, but rather you are going to have the Right V's the Centrist V's the Left and all the other small ones which will play important part in forming a coalition.

Can you imagine a GC running for President also has a TC as a vice President, or vise versa. This will also give a good chance for a TC to become a President, elected directly or in the event of GC president leaving office before his time was due for many reasons. If Barak Obama can become the next President of the United States as a black man whose ethnic group make up only 10% of the United states, whose heritage goes back to slavery, then there is absolutely no reason why the TC's can't trust True Democracy. By having 2 states, north and south, and the TC's being the majority in the north in a True Federation, each states will also have certain rights that the Federal Government cannot interfere, as long as they are not in violation of any one's Human and Democratic Rights. The protection of all citizens will be protected by the Federal Government. I'm sorry, but I do not buy this voting by a block to vote anything that will be against the "minorities" in the country by the majority, and lets not forget, that we are also in the EU and not in some third world country for God sake.

What if they do block vote? we cannot leave this to chance just because you think there will not be a problem, there has to be an effective system that will not allow this to happen. Its ok for GCs as they have the upper hand with 80% of the vote which puts us in a very risky situation.

Why don't you give us some examples VP, where the majority voted as a "block" against a minority, when all the political parties colluded with each other to bring harm to one ethnicity over another in this day and age and particularly in the EU club. In the first place, such a move would be against the constitution if such a move would be against someones Human Rights as well as other constitutional rights, so stop blowing hot air in the wind VP. You just hate the idea of True Democracy for Cyprus, plain and simple.

[xxNilxx]

You might be happy being a province of "turkey=fascist state"...but the majority of the island don't, so don't go forcing the majority your views...not happy?... fuck off...can't get any simpler than that...got it effendi? << quote

Boom , do you not know how to talk to someone properly ? secondly if you don't accept what Halil is saying then lets just stay divided for another 40 years

[xxNilxx]

As extreme as some may accuse me of being ... I know (even I) that I am completely comfortable with a TC or even Turk << quote

WOOOW

Oracle.. are you ok??
Your not so bad afterall

I am completely comfortable with a TC or even Turk << ORACLE'S QUOTE

[Oracle]

As extreme as some may accuse me of being ... I know (even I) that I am completely comfortable with a TC or even Turk << quote

WOOOW

Oracle.. are you ok??
Your not so bad afterall

I am completely comfortable with a TC or even Turk << ORACLE'S QUOTE

Buzz off Bloody Turk, transposing partial sentences to suit

......... The condition being:

....... so long as they were true to the ideals of the RoC .......

You don't fit that, so get lost!