Cyprus-Forum.com

[bill cobbett]

bill what i was getting at was that both sides are such an ethnic mix now that i don't rearly see where the problem is. whats done is done. i hear what your saying but being thrown out of your home is not good for anyone, all cypriots should know better than anyone. the turkish people on this side get a hard time from the cypriots all of the time. most of my friends in the village want them to go back to turkey. where are they supposed to go back to? many have lived here for many years, and generation of turkish families are here. most work very hard. sending them back would be like ethnic cleansing, how can anyone think thats ok?

Perhaps the reason you don't see the problem is because it's not your problem. You would soon think differently if you and all your friends, family and neighbours suddenly had to go running for your life and leave everything you own behind. Not to mention all those that might be killed, raped, tortured or just disappear. No matter how much time passed, you wouldn't just forget about it, especially if you lost people you loved. Ask anyone in the world who has ever been through something like that and they'll tell you the same thing.

As far as you're concerned, you've got a nice home in a lovely part of the world with good neighbours. You don't even think of the 'TRNC' as illegal. When you left the UK you might have sold your home and moved out in your own time to build your new life. The people who lost their homes (and lives) in 1974 didn't get that luxury.

Similarly, you might have left the UK because you were unhappy about the increasing number of immigrants coming to live here, most of whom are legally entitled to do so. Now imagine they arrived, kicked you out and set up home at your expense. See the difference?

Even if you take the emotion out of it, the simple fact is that the people you call 'settlers' are living in an illegal regime on land and property that was taken through invasion. No matter how long they live there it makes no difference, it doesn't become any less stolen.

Asking them to leave is nothing like ethnic cleansing. They won't be running for their lives and may even get a payout to go away. As for where they might go then perhaps they might try going back to Turkey or one of the many other countries that the GCs who fled in 1974 went to. England might be a good choice.

I don't blame you for supporting the people you know and i'm not trying to criticise you. I'm just trying to get you to imagine what people went through and the feelings they have so you can understand what the problem is. It's not because those people are Turks. It wouldn't matter if they were Martians. It's because they're invaders and they're living in homes that aren't theirs.

Magnus

one of the best postings I've ever seen on the forum in the last couple of years

Thankyou

I'd like the honour of seconding that and If I may add, exceptionally well said.

[Oracle]

bill what i was getting at was that both sides are such an ethnic mix now that i don't rearly see where the problem is. whats done is done. i hear what your saying but being thrown out of your home is not good for anyone, all cypriots should know better than anyone. the turkish people on this side get a hard time from the cypriots all of the time. most of my friends in the village want them to go back to turkey. where are they supposed to go back to? many have lived here for many years, and generation of turkish families are here. most work very hard. sending them back would be like ethnic cleansing, how can anyone think thats ok?

Perhaps the reason you don't see the problem is because it's not your problem. You would soon think differently if you and all your friends, family and neighbours suddenly had to go running for your life and leave everything you own behind. Not to mention all those that might be killed, raped, tortured or just disappear. No matter how much time passed, you wouldn't just forget about it, especially if you lost people you loved. Ask anyone in the world who has ever been through something like that and they'll tell you the same thing.

As far as you're concerned, you've got a nice home in a lovely part of the world with good neighbours. You don't even think of the 'TRNC' as illegal. When you left the UK you might have sold your home and moved out in your own time to build your new life. The people who lost their homes (and lives) in 1974 didn't get that luxury.

Similarly, you might have left the UK because you were unhappy about the increasing number of immigrants coming to live here, most of whom are legally entitled to do so. Now imagine they arrived, kicked you out and set up home at your expense. See the difference?

Even if you take the emotion out of it, the simple fact is that the people you call 'settlers' are living in an illegal regime on land and property that was taken through invasion. No matter how long they live there it makes no difference, it doesn't become any less stolen.

Asking them to leave is nothing like ethnic cleansing. They won't be running for their lives and may even get a payout to go away. As for where they might go then perhaps they might try going back to Turkey or one of the many other countries that the GCs who fled in 1974 went to. England might be a good choice.

I don't blame you for supporting the people you know and i'm not trying to criticise you. I'm just trying to get you to imagine what people went through and the feelings they have so you can understand what the problem is. It's not because those people are Turks. It wouldn't matter if they were Martians. It's because they're invaders and they're living in homes that aren't theirs.

Magnus

one of the best postings I've ever seen on the forum in the last couple of years

Thankyou

I'd like the honour of seconding that and If I may add, exceptionally well said.

I wanted to do the same, but was hesitant of being labelled a free-rider on someone else's efforts ...

Well done Magnus for original post, Richard for guts to congratulate and bill c. for unashamedly free-loading!

[bill cobbett]

[Viewpoint]

Why don't you give us some examples VP, where the majority voted as a "block" against a minority, when all the political parties colluded with each other to bring harm to one ethnicity over another in this day and age and particularly in the EU club. In the first place, such a move would be against the constitution if such a move would be against someones Human Rights as well as other constitutional rights, so stop blowing hot air in the wind VP. You just hate the idea of True Democracy for Cyprus, plain and simple.

You still choose to avoid answering the real question can the GCs block vote in their own party? a simple YES or NO will do. If you expect us to take this risk then you are more crazy than I thought you were.

I'm not avoiding anything. If anyone is avoiding in answering questions, it's you. You make this generic scenario about a
"block veto" by the GC's, but you don't give us any examples what it is that they will be blocking that will be detrimental to the TC's, that is going to violate their civil, Democratic and Human Rights, as well as all the other rights that you may ask for, that will be added to the constitution. Therefore VP, you have no idea what it is that you want or that you are afraid of. You are just making noise to be heard, but you are not telling us anything. So don't blame me for ignoring your concerns when you are not telling us what they really are, which brings me back to my comment, and that is, you are not willing to live in a True Democratic society in the country of Cyprus because the numerical numbers of the TC's are less than the GC'c. Do you have a country where all the ethnic groups numerical numbers are the same. I don't think so.

The only thing you are worried about is, that if the relationship between Turkey and Cyprus remains unfriendly after a settlement is reached, then Cyprus may not want to trade with Turkey and that the GC's might vote as a block in the Parliament to make it happen..

We can make Union with another country illegal and have it in the constitution, therefore no referendum can take place, so that there are no dangers of the GC's voting as a "block". I think you will find almost all GC's will welcome this law.

Did I miss anything anything else.??

You are still avoiding the question, this leads us to be very suspiscious about why you will not give a YES NO answer, Can they block vote?

That's because there isn't a YES or NO answer to something that does not exists. You are not giving us any examples. Why are you afraid to give us some examples that are worrying you. You are acting more suspicious than any one else on the forum. If it's against Human Rights, Democratic rights or any of the Constitutional rights of the TC's, there won't be any vote allowed to take place if it's in violation of those rights, because what ever measure is put up for a vote, it will effect every Cypriot and not just the TC's, since every citizen is equal. So stop wasting my time and give me an example.

I'll give you an example and see what happens.

An initiative is passed by the parliament to make the TC's a second class citizens in Cyprus. Right away that ruling will be challenged by the TC's and the GC's to the supreme court to strike it down. Let say the whole supreme court is racist and they allow it to go forward. Then this will be challenged at the ECHR, and they will strike it down, unless of course you do not believe the ECHR to do the right thing. It will not come to a referendum to even give it a chance to become a "block vote".

So VP, give us your worse case scenario that will get a "Block vote" and lets talk about it.

You just want to create a "buggy man" and not talk honestly. You want a partition, therefore you will do and say anything to get it. I understand that, so keep it up, but without examples to tell us how any "block" voting is going to be detrimental to the TC's, you are on a losing battle on this one.

You are being bloody minded yet again, as you know full well that with a voting split of 80% vs 20% the 80% can very easily block vote to take control and bring in a totally GC government. Even with forced proprtional representation and no structure to stop block voting on certain issue the block voting can take legislation through without objection or any obstacles.

Using the above systems can the block vote bring in a totally GC government with 80% of the vote?

with a 80% 20% split in parliament can the 80% vote in union with Greece or ceasing trade with Turkey??

Please for a change try to answer the questions and not go around the houses with biased one sided garbage.

[humanist]

Who can tell me why this cannot work ........

Two States of Cyprus in the United Federal State of Governement; which basically assumes equal right, right of return unless otherwise desired, North and South State share the govering power the governing power, 50% in the North State regardless of population percentages (Because in effect there will be under the right of return more Greek Cyps in the North and similarly in the south), and there is a 50% share in the Federal Levelperhaps with a vision that by 2020 there will no longer be the socialist party of TC's or the GC's for that matter adn be socialist party of Cyprus.

[Viewpoint]

Who can tell me why this cannot work ........

Two States of Cyprus in the United Federal State of Governement; which basically assumes equal right, right of return unless otherwise desired, North and South State share the govering power the governing power, 50% in the North State regardless of population percentages (Because in effect there will be under the right of return more Greek Cyps in the North and similarly in the south), and there is a 50% share in the Federal Levelperhaps with a vision that by 2020 there will no longer be the socialist party of TC's or the GC's for that matter adn be socialist party of Cyprus.

This is something the GCs will never accept, as they do not want to share equally, they want to use their numerical advantage to turn Cyprus into a Greek island for GCs run by GCs.

[Piratis]

VP, you are the one who does not want to share equally. You want each TC to have 4.5 times more voting power than each GC, somehting which is undemocratic and a racist discrimination.

Equality means for each citizen to be equal to another, regardless of his ethnic background, religion or anything else. If some citizen is given more voting power because he speaks Turkish and he is Muslim, that is called inequality

[Viewpoint]

VP, you are the one who does not want to share equally. You want each TC to have 4.5 times more voting power than each GC, somehting which is undemocratic and a racist discrimination.

Equality means for each citizen to be equal to another, regardless of his ethnic background, religion or anything else. If some citizen is given more voting power because he speaks Turkish and he is Muslim, that is called inequality

I want 2 equal communities where we can say no on sensative issues, whats wrong with that, what have you to fear? or have you got hidden agendas?

[Piratis]

VP, you are the one who does not want to share equally. You want each TC to have 4.5 times more voting power than each GC, somehting which is undemocratic and a racist discrimination.

Equality means for each citizen to be equal to another, regardless of his ethnic background, religion or anything else. If some citizen is given more voting power because he speaks Turkish and he is Muslim, that is called inequality

I want 2 equal communities where we can say no on sensative issues, whats wrong with that, what have you to fear? or have you got hidden agendas?

The equality should be among citizens, not among groups of citizens. Citizens should be equal to each other regardless of their ethnic background, language or anything else. Anything else is racist.

If you want veto power on certain issues thats a different issue. Say on what issues you want to have veto power and we can discuss them. I didn't say no to this. What I don't accept is the inequality among the citizens.

[Viewpoint]

VP, you are the one who does not want to share equally. You want each TC to have 4.5 times more voting power than each GC, somehting which is undemocratic and a racist discrimination.

Equality means for each citizen to be equal to another, regardless of his ethnic background, religion or anything else. If some citizen is given more voting power because he speaks Turkish and he is Muslim, that is called inequality

I want 2 equal communities where we can say no on sensative issues, whats wrong with that, what have you to fear? or have you got hidden agendas?

The equality should be among citizens, not among groups of citizens. Citizens should be equal to each other regardless of their ethnic background, language or anything else. Anything else is racist.

If you want veto power on certain issues thats a different issue. Say on what issues you want to have veto power and we can discuss them. I didn't say no to this. What I don't accept is the inequality among the citizens.

Inequality amongst citizen is far from our aim, I'm glad that you have at least acknowledged that alternative solutions can be developed to ensure that TCs will not be brushed to one side especially on issues which will effect one community more negatively than the other.