Cyprus-Forum.com

[Andros]

Please read the latest article quoted by POLITIS in Reuters News today,

European Commission has advised Cyprus that reunification which may take the form of a "virgin birth" of two equal states, and not evolution of the existing Republic of Cyprus, will mean the new state will have to submit new EU accession bid

Some of you constantly fire at my regular reference to wanting an "agreed" partition formula as being wrong or baseless! Well, I believe that the statement above clearly explains my worry - and the worry of many other Cypriots!

"Virgin Birth", "EQUAL states", "Submit NEW EU accession bid". What the hell is going on?


Please tell me, Get Real, ARE YOU happy with the way things are developing seeing that you are a strong supporter of bi-communal talks based on a UNIFICATION outcome?

Before we see even more disastrous scenarios, perhaps we should all accept the best outcome for a solution - Agreed Partition where WE (Greek Cypriots) REMAIN as the REPUBLIC OF CYPRUS, and the other being perhaps known as Northern Cyprus. Otherwise, we will have to GIVE UP too much for what it's worth!

Please don't get me wrong here - I DON'T LIKE the idea of there being a ROC and a NC - but let's be realistic here, what other choice do we politically have. I understand President Christofias' concerns, but perhaps it's about time WE ALL HELPED the man.

A solution based on the continuation of the ROC with Turkish Cypriots jumping on board! Please all, wake up and smell the coffee. It's now impossible. and DAMAGING, as you have either realised, OR will realise.

If only you could see my anger and frustration after reading the above quote.
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What I believe our OPTIONS will be:
Annan Plan 6 is just around the corner all, where, the process will obviously now lead to the so-called RECOGNITION of northern Cyprus as it stands if we say "NO" to a future referendum based on this new Virgin Birth idea, lose the ROC and have to now submit a new EU membership bid. OR, we could force an agreed partition!
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No silly answers or comments please.

[Get Real!]

Please tell me, Get Real, ARE YOU happy with the way things are developing seeing that you are a strong supporter of bi-communal talks based on a UNIFICATION outcome?

I have NEVER encouraged or supported any political arrangement for Cyprus other than Democracy...

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus17310.html

[unitedwestand]

Please tell me, Get Real, ARE YOU happy with the way things are developing seeing that you are a strong supporter of bi-communal talks based on a UNIFICATION outcome?

I have NEVER encouraged or supported any political arrangement for Cyprus other than Democracy...

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus17310.html

Rambo,

Ever give a thought to our (TRNC) democracy? All you ever do is impose, bully and terrorise us.

Your democracy is a joke, stick it up your backside.

[Get Real!]

Please tell me, Get Real, ARE YOU happy with the way things are developing seeing that you are a strong supporter of bi-communal talks based on a UNIFICATION outcome?

I have NEVER encouraged or supported any political arrangement for Cyprus other than Democracy...

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus17310.html

Rambo,

Ever give a thought to our (TRNC) democracy? All you ever do is impose, bully and terrorise us.

Your democracy is a joke, stick it up your backside.

You should consider yourselves VERY LUCKY if the RoC ever assimilates you into their modern and civilized world where you’ll not only live under a free democracy but you will also attain a NATIONAL IDENTITY at long last.

[bill cobbett]

Could they be preparing for a new accession bid for a new state with a long list of opt-outs to accomodate an Anon 17 plan? That is opting out of various chapters of the various EU treaties. For instance, opting out of the usual EU legislation that won't allow preferential, disproportionate treatment of one community. Any expertise in this area anyone?

[Oracle]

Please read the latest article quoted by POLITIS in Reuters News today

European Commission has advised Cyprus that reunification which may take the form of a "virgin birth" of two equal states, and not evolution of the existing Republic of Cyprus, will mean the new state will have to submit new EU accession bid

... and then they went on to explain that because of this it would not be considered!

"Virgin Birth", "EQUAL states", "Submit NEW EU accession bid". What the hell is going on?

Nothing ... they are the reasons it will not be accepted!

If only you could see my anger and frustration after reading the above quote.

Stop the pathetic pretence at being a GC Andros ... you are not doing yourself or Turkey's reputation any favours.

[DT.]

it is getting a little tiresome Andros. We won't jusge you if you admit you're Turkish.

[Kifeas]

Please read the latest article quoted by POLITIS in Reuters News today,

European Commission has advised Cyprus that reunification which may take the form of a "virgin birth" of two equal states, and not evolution of the existing Republic of Cyprus, will mean the new state will have to submit new EU accession bid

DT and Andros make an interesting point about whether before a new entity comes into being both of the predecessor entities have to be 'recognised.' The answer is surely no. It is not a chicken and egg problem.

It is quite possible for a new legal entity to incorporate entities which had no previous legal identity or unrecognised status. As far as I can tell the issue is largely one of whether the new entity is wholly new and owes little or nothing to its predecessor entities, or whether the new entity seeks to integrate and incorporate provisions of the predecessor entities.

Metaphorically speaking, in principle though the flag/s of the old entities could be lowered at 24.00 hours midnight and the new flag of the new entity could be raised at 00.00 hours midnight. (Personally I'd ditch flags of any kind; more trouble than their worth).

CopperLine, could you please elaborate as to how you understand or envision a solution of the Cyprus issue under a BBF to possibly emerge? Is it going to be an evolution of the existing RoC, or is it going to be a wholly new legal entity?

I remind you that in the case of a wholly new legal entity emerging, without owing anything to the existing and fully recognized (with the exception of Turkey) RoC, i.e. the new entity is not a successor of the RoC; it means that (at least as far as the EU is concerned,) a cancellation or amendment of the existing treaty of accession between Cyprus and the EU is needed, and this requires the signature of all 27 members states and their parliaments –including that of the RoC, and a new accession process to go through and a new treaty of accession to be signed by all the existing EU member states, this time with the new legal entity in Cyprus.

Do you believe the GC side will ever sign a solution deal which will require themselves and the RoC to go through all these? Furthermore, do you believe the EU, (its institutions and its bureaucracy,) and all the 27 EU member states (governments and parliaments,) are willing to go through such a hassle, 5 years after Cyprus has already been a member of the EU and has undertaken so many commitments already, and signed so many agreements that will all need to be changed? Do you realize what this means?

Furthermore, if an entirely new legal entity will take over Cyprus, without this being a successor of the RoC, what happens to all the hundreds of international legal obligations, international treaties, international loans and World Bank and EU bank deposits, and EU loans and commitments already undertaken or EU surplus payments made by the RoC, during its past 50 years of its life? Do you also realize that the RoC, besides an EU member state, since this year is also a member of the Economic and monetary Union of the EU, which means that it also co-decides on the fait of the Euro and the EU's monetary policy? Do you realize what this means?

I know your secret wish (and please no need to deny this) is for the GC side to "buy" into the Turkish wishes, as to how a solution to the Cyprus issue should emerge, i.e. dissolution and abandonment of the RoC, and creation of an entirely new international legal entity, via "virgin-birth," on the basis of a partnership between two imaginary ethnic states, a GC one in the south and a TC in one the north, however, do you seriously believe that after considering all the above, such a thing is possible and logically feasible? Let's see how pragmatic you are, and how much you understand about international law and politics!

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... 015#303015

[CopperLine]

Kifeas, a point of objection first : If

[you] know your secret wish (and please no need to deny this)

why bother asking me a question at all ? (Probably because actually you don't know what I think, you just assume that you do).


On to a more significant point. The idea of 'virgin birth' in its simplest form is that a new state entity is wholly new in its constitution and does not try, as it were, to retain vestiges of its predecessors. The irony is that a state of 'virgin birth' may be new with regard it domestic constitution but it cannot shake off its international legacy. So, for example, prior to a new state of 'virgin birth' there would have to be a negotiation and agreement over which prior international undertakings - amongst them treaties, debt, organisational membership - concluded by the predecessor entities would be inherited by the successor state.

[DT.]

Kifeas, a point of objection first : If

[you] know your secret wish (and please no need to deny this)

why bother asking me a question at all ? (Probably because actually you don't know what I think, you just assume that you do).


On to a more significant point. The idea of 'virgin birth' in its simplest form is that a new state entity is wholly new in its constitution and does not try, as it were, to retain vestiges of its predecessors. The irony is that a state of 'virgin birth' may be new with regard it domestic constitution but it cannot shake off its international legacy. So, for example, prior to a new state of 'virgin birth' there would have to be a negotiation and agreement over which prior international undertakings - amongst them treaties, debt, organisational membership - concluded by the predecessor entities would be inherited by the successor state.

a virgin birth is not under discussion by the gc side. Never was never will be for reasons described many times before. So it is pointless discussing this.