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How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby magikthrill » Sun May 01, 2005 3:30 pm

erolz wrote:You sincerely beleive that TC have a hidden agenda to achieve permanent and recognised partition and that any statements or agreements or moves that seem to contradict this objective are based on insincerity and deception.

I sincerly believe there is a real chance (though I am NOT absolutists about this) that there is a GC hidden agenda to achieve a single GC state run by GC for GC cypriots without any let or hinderance or consideration for the TC community and tah any statement or agreement or moves that seem to contradict this objective may well be based on insincerity and decpetion.

So where can we, should we and do we go from here?


erol i highly doubt your assumption is correct for two reasons:
1) it is unfeasible compared to Kifeas suggestion of the TC hidden agenda which as you and I both know is very plausible.
1) this "hidden" agenda did exist prior to 74. and this is a "Sort of" thing. the agenda was to unite with Greece and then the future of TCs after that would have been a secondary issue. Im sure that prior to 74 GC propaganda led many GCs to thinkt hat Cyprus belongs solely to the GCs for whatever reason. GCs do not think like this anymore hence there is no point for this agenda to exist.
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Postby erolz » Sun May 01, 2005 3:52 pm

magikthrill wrote: erol i highly doubt your assumption is correct for two reasons:
1) it is unfeasible compared to Kifeas suggestion of the TC hidden agenda which as you and I both know is very plausible.
1) this "hidden" agenda did exist prior to 74. and this is a "Sort of" thing. the agenda was to unite with Greece and then the future of TCs after that would have been a secondary issue. Im sure that prior to 74 GC propaganda led many GCs to thinkt hat Cyprus belongs solely to the GCs for whatever reason. GCs do not think like this anymore hence there is no point for this agenda to exist.


Firstly it is not my assumption, it is my concern / fear (unlike with kiefas for whom TC duplicity and hidden agenda does seemed to be an assumption and beyond doubt).

There is nothing unplausible about the possibity that the current GC adminstration has a duplicitous hidden aganeda from where I am sitting.

GC prior to 1960 made strenuous efforts to secure an independent Cyprus where political control effectively rested with GC alone. (they failed then).
GC leaders after 1960 created a written plan (akritas plan) with the primary objective of (with deception) overturning the agreements they previously signed and delivering effectiv epolitical control of Cyprus to GC alone. TP was one of the primary people involved in the creation of this plan (according to Keifas). (they sucseeded till 74)
Many GC indivduals participating i these forums today have expressed clearly and unequiviclay that their desire is for a 'unitray' state where CYprus is under effective total control of GC alone.

There are many very real reasons why I as a TC have concerns over the sincerity of the current GC admins desire for a solution that does not achieve a unitary state with all political control effectvielyy in the hands of GC alone. There is also very real reasons to fear that GC wil negotiate and agree a solution based on less than this not with the intent of honouring it but wioth the intent of securing an 'unassailable bastion' from which they can subsequently secure their real aims.

The idea that TC admin is insincere and duplicitous is 'very plausible' (or even definate according to keifas) and that the GC admin is inscincere and duplicitous is 'highly doubtful' - is to me a partisan biased view based not on actualy eveidence and probabilites but more on pre concieved views about the realtive mertis of the two admins. That's how it seems to me anyway.
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Postby magikthrill » Sun May 01, 2005 4:14 pm

erolz wrote:Many GC indivduals participating i these forums today have expressed clearly and unequiviclay that their desire is for a 'unitray' state where CYprus is under effective total control of GC alone.


Your personal concerns are your own and I obviously cannot argue with those. however, as far as the GC participating in this forum their cause of a unitary state involves something of the form of 1960. Not an ethnically clean GC state (maybe the Lemmesianoi want their own state but they're a differnet story :-D)

There are many very real reasons why I as a TC have concerns over the sincerity of the current GC admins desire for a solution that does not achieve a unitary state with all political control effectvielyy in the hands of GC alone. There is also very real reasons to fear that GC wil negotiate and agree a solution based on less than this not with the intent of honouring it but wioth the intent of securing an 'unassailable bastion' from which they can subsequently secure their real aims.


Here I think you are paranoid becase your arguments dont make sense when placed into the context of real events. How can you think that GCs have such power so as to screw over TCs and take over the entire island? Next thing youll tell me is that the GCs are going to invade Turkey and start occupying bits and pieces of it!

The idea that TC admin is insincere and duplicitous is 'very plausible' (or even definate according to keifas) and that the GC admin is inscincere and duplicitous is 'highly doubtful' - is to me a partisan biased view based not on actualy eveidence and probabilites but more on pre concieved views about the realtive mertis of the two admins. That's how it seems to me anyway.


Again this has to do with a realistic point of view. First of all I want ot make it clear that I wasnt commenting on TC admins "insincerity" and double-face agenda but at the fact that TCs will have their own state.

Im hoping you would agree wiht me that it its a million times more likely for a separate TC state to exist than for GCs to take over the entire island????
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Postby erolz » Sun May 01, 2005 4:34 pm

magikthrill wrote:
Your personal concerns are your own ....


I think you are misunderstanding me here and as far as that is my fault I appologise for it.

I am not saying the (potential) hidden agenda of GC is to purge Cyprus of all TC physicaly. I am suggesting that the (potential) hidden aganeda is to achieve a CYprus where the TC community has no more political rights than that of a ethnic minority in Cyprus. This has been a constant agenda for GC in Cyprus I beleive, from before 1960 and continuing to this day.

So when Keifas suggests (or states as undoubtable reality) that the TC amdinistarion have a hidden agenda of partition and any indication that this is not the case is a reflection of 'decption' and not an indication that the hidden aganeda thesis is flase, I am point out that I (and many other TC I suspect) have a similar fear that GC have a hidden agenda of a Cypriot state where the TC community is reduced politicaly to an ehtnic minority in its own (shared) homeland and than any indication that this is not the case (like TP talking about BBF solutiions) is not proof of the invalidty of this thesis but merely accountable as 'deception' as means to achieve this 'hidden' agenda. I hope that is clearer now?
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Postby magikthrill » Sun May 01, 2005 4:45 pm

yes now I understand what you are saying and here is my 2 cents on the matter.

I still dont believe that the GC admin has a hidden agenda to eliminate TC political rights. I believe the worst case scenario (or best case scenario of the admin) would be to have a return to 1960 constituion which I belive does guarantee rights for the TC community. That is my opinion though.

Also as far as the hidden agenda of the TC admin, the fact remains that currently the TCs are a partitioned community at the present time. Of course you can argue that the GCs have their supposed "hidden agenda" since there are no TCs in the RoCs administration.

So ..... if both communities have a hidden agenda then why does the Cyprus problem exist?With the de facto circumstances each communitiys agenda is satisfied.

Did I get you right this time?
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Postby erolz » Sun May 01, 2005 4:57 pm

magikthrill wrote:I still dont believe that the GC admin has a hidden agenda to eliminate TC political rights. I believe the worst case scenario (or best case scenario of the admin) would be to have a return to 1960 constituion which I belive does guarantee rights for the TC community. That is my opinion though.


All I would say is that you were not happy with the 1960 agreements in 1960 and your current leader then was activley involved in persuing illeagl and decption based strategies to unilateraly ammend this consitution against the know willof TC. This to me creates real and credible concern that this may still be the case. I sincerely hope it is not and freely admit that it might not be the case today - but I also have fears / concerns that it may be the case.

magikthrill wrote:Also as far as the hidden agenda of the TC admin, the fact remains that currently the TCs are a partitioned community at the present time. Of course you can argue that the GCs have their supposed "hidden agenda" since there are no TCs in the RoCs administration.
So ..... if both communities have a hidden agenda then why does the Cyprus problem exist?With the de facto circumstances each communitiys agenda is satisfied.


GC have the desire of their (hypothetical / possibly real) hidden agenda - but only in their own areas and not in all of Cyprus and at the considerable cost of much lost land and rights to land they used to control
TC have the desire of their (hypothetical / possibly real) hidden agenda - but only at the cost of international isolation.

magikthrill wrote:Did I get you right this time?


Pretty much :)
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Postby magikthrill » Sun May 01, 2005 5:13 pm

erolz wrote:
GC have the desire of their (hypothetical / possibly real) hidden agenda - but only in their own areas and not in all of Cyprus and at the considerable cost of much lost land and rights to land they used to control
TC have the desire of their (hypothetical / possibly real) hidden agenda - but only at the cost of international isolation.


Ok, I'm glad I got it right. Then moving one step forward to attempt to elimiate both hidden agendas:

If GCs disadvnatage to their "hidden agenda" is lost land and TCs disadvnatgage to their "hidden agenda" is international isolation then why dont the two communities agree on an 82-18 partition? That way it seems to me they both will have fulflled their agendas and everyone is happy...

And one final step to speculate which agenda (if any) is more plausible:
By proving from the previous paragraph that an agreed partition would satisfy both (hypothetical/ possibly real) hidden agendas, if an actualy proposal were made for an agreed 82-12 partition which side would be more likely to accept it
A) the GCs
B) the TCs
C) neither?

Did I make sense this time? Im basically trying to approach a scientific point of view to this non-scientific issue. I think it works though :)

PS all I edited was my quotation brackets typo :)
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Postby erolz » Sun May 01, 2005 5:48 pm

magikthrill wrote: If GCs disadvnatage to their "hidden agenda" is lost land and TCs disadvnatgage to their "hidden agenda" is international isolation then why dont the two communities agree on an 82-18 partition? That way it seems to me they both will have fulflled their agendas and everyone is happy...


I think that this would meet the needs of the TC hypothetical / possibly real hidden agenda (unless of course the hidden agenda of TC is for partion and theft of land - which is often stated as the case). I am not so sure it meets the GC hypothetical / possible hidden agenda as far as this agenda is for effective GC control over ALL of Cyprus and not a part of it and would still require some GC to not be able to posess and use their former homes in a GC or Cypriot state (only in a TC state) and their rights to free movement throughout all of cyprus.

magikthrill wrote:And one final step to speculate which agenda (if any) is more plausible:
By proving from the previous paragraph that an agreed partition would satisfy both (hypothetical/ possibly real) hidden agendas, if an actualy proposal were made for an agreed 82-12 partition which side would be more likely to accept it
A) the GCs
B) the TCs
C) neither?


My personal view is that such a solution would be more acceptable to TC community than the GC community. But then I do not believe in the thesis that TC want to profit from stealing from GC. Histroicaly we anted seperation (and agreed and 'fair' seperation) but the GC wanted sole control of ALL of Cyprus.

magikthrill wrote:Did I make sense this time? Im basically trying to approach a scientific point of view to this non-scientific issue. I think it works though :)


You seemed to make sense to me and any appraoch that moves us away from name calling and intentional 'baiting' of each other is welcome by me.

magikthrill wrote:PS all I edited was my quotation brackets typo :)


No problem - I am always editing my posts but only ever to correct my mistakes and never to try and change my meaning after the fact - only make it clearer.
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Postby Kifeas » Sun May 01, 2005 7:13 pm

Erolz wrote:You sincerely beleive that TC have a hidden agenda to achieve permanent and recognised partition and that any statements or agreements or moves that seem to contradict this objective are based on insincerity and deception.


Ok Erol,
Let me get to into the hard-core of the issue.

I claim that the TC-Turkish establishment doesn’t favour at all the reinstatement of GC properties (even this 1/3 as per A-Plan) and even more importantly it doesn’t favour the return of GC refuges within the TCCS. You obviously disagree with my allegation.

Then please elaborate on the following.

The GC side accepted a territory, substantially larger than the TC community’s population ratio, to remain under its effective administration, with the profound assumption that a large number (equivalent as a ration to the excessive territory ratio) of GCs would be “allowed” to return back to their ancestral villages and properties and with all their human and political rights to be respected. This TCCS territory ratio (29.4%,) which is 1.6 times more than the TC population percentage, ideally should allow as much return of GCs as to be up to 37% of the total population of the TCCS, assuming that the TC population is the 18% of the total. (In fact it is less than 18% but with the addition of remaining settlers it will be slightly more than 18%.)

Annan plan 1 & 2, provided for GCs to become up to 28% of the total population, up until the end of the transitional period (20 years.) The TC/Turkish side protested and this was reduced down to 21% in Annan plan 3. Still this was not satisfactory for the TC/Turkish side and in Annan plan 4 & 5 this percentage was dropped further down to 18%. Further more in A-plan 5, this 18% was made permanent (for ever) and with a provision to become a primary law of the E.U. aqui. (Modify the already signed treaty of accession and pass it again through all the 24 E.U. parliaments for re-approval.)

All these downfalls, from 37% which should have been the legitimate ratio for GCs, down to 18%, were done by the U.N. team, unilaterally, and without the consent of the GC side. As a “compensation” to the GC side, the TC side accepted, instead of a subsequent reduction of the territory ration, the allowance of up to 33% of secondary residence status (not a citizens status but that of tourists, communal tax payers, consumers of services, net contributors,) to people other than of Turkish /TC ethnicity. In this 33% ratio of total TCCS population naturally includes all the foreigners that currently reside or will reside in the future in the north. Already these foreigners near up to 5% of the TC –to be – population and very soon they will climb up to 10%. Therefore, this 33% that was supposed to be given as a “compensation” (not an authentic one,) to the GC side, is /will be eroded by the foreigners.

Going back to the 18% of GCs that were agreed by the TC side to be accepted as internal citizens of the TCCS. In a A-plans 1,2, & 3, they had full political rights like the other (TC) citizens. In A-plans 4 & 5, their political rights were carved down to the state level only and not to the federal level as citizens of the TCCS.

The most astonishing however was yet to be discovered. For this GCs had to wait until 2 weeks before the referendums when the Constitution of the TCCS became publicly available by the U.N. Although the TC side accepted only this little 18%, compared to the excessive territory they gained and although this 18% political rights were reduced only to the level of the state; the TC constitution provided that, in order for any one to be elected into any post from the community level to the parliament of the state, he/she must have proof of knowledge of Turkish, as being the only official one of the state. In other words, although the GCCS had secured a provision in it’s constitution to make Turkish a secondary official when it becomes necessary -despite the fact that not many TC were expected to move south into the GCCS and although the TC community enjoys the right of having it’s language as one of the official ones of the Fed state –despite the fact that it is also only 18% of the total; the TC side found it reasonable to deprive the future GC citizens of it’s state from their native language. That would have meant that education for them would be in Turkish, unless it would be provided by the GCCS through private schools within the TCCS, plus any possible election to any political post or employment to any civil administration position would be hampered by the fact that very few GC speak adequate Turkish.

Furthermore, anyone elected in the parliament of the TCCS would be required as the TC constitution dictates, to take an oath to safeguard and promote the principles of Atatürk. Even if this person originates from the GC community and although it is so well known to the TCs that for GCs Atatürk is a symbol of Turkish nationalism.

All the above phenomena create a least favourable climate for any GC to wish to resettle into the north. All the fears that the TC community has been expressing for so many years not to become a minority in their own country and all the consequent disadvantages that this would have to their cultural identity and their political integrity, have found their way in the TCCS constitution but this time against the GCs that would want to return back to their ancestral lands (their homelands.)

Why?

The answer is simple. The TC /Turkish side do not favour the return of any GC back into the north. They want to discourage and prohibit directly or indirectly the desire of GCs to move within the TCCS. They claim they accept it, but at the same time they invented a thousand ways to prohibit it. There are many more hidden issues in the TCCS constitution that prove my above conclusions. Furthermore, the massive trading of GC properties, which in the case of Kyrenia and Famagusta has already rented this 1/3 provision of property reinstatement to the original GC owners grossly inapplicable almost as much as 90% of the cases are concerned, is an additional evidence of this hidden policy of keeping the north (TCCS) clean of any GC presence.

Why they do not favour the return of any GC into the TCCS?
Because they want the door (option) of future partition to remain wide open. As long as the URC serves their purpose and Turkeys purpose, they will stick to it. Once their purpose is not served any more, they will push for the creation of artificial stalemates until they force the GC side to say “the hell with it,” and then they will run away with 29%-30% and 48% of the coastline of Cyprus, before a single penny for property compensations is paid and before any serious number GC manages to return into the north. The scenario of the so-called virgin birth was invented for this specific reason. The term Constituent states in A-plan 4&5, instead of the initial one in A-plan 1 & 2, which spoke for Component states was invented for this reason. All these “innocent” changes were made out of TC/Turkish insistence. Why? Because once the Federal government will eventually collapse, the two remaining states will immediately be recognised as two separate sovereign entities.

Have they made wishes known from the beginning, i.e. that they do not prefer a single GC to get mixed into their state affairs by moving back into the north, then the International community and the GC side would have immediately spoken for a further reduction of the territory, as low as 18% of the total area of Cyprus. This however yields a very little area and would have definately been unsatisfactory. Therefore they had to agree the return of some GCs but prohibit it in different ways.

P.S.: when I make reference to the TC/Turkish side, I certainly to do include the majority of ordinary TCs who perhaps have no clue of what is going on and what is at stake.

The reference to 29.4% of territory as the real percentage of the TCCS, instead of 28.7% comes about if one subtracts the territory (3%) of British bases, which is not part of the GCCS.
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Postby erolz » Sun May 01, 2005 7:27 pm

Kifeas wrote: Ok Erol,
Let me get to into the hard-core of the issue.


Appologies Keifas but I do not have the energy to answer this long and detailed post of yours right now. What is more I am due to start my (final - phew) slug of military service on Wednesday. It's only two weeks but I doubt I will get the opportunity to consider and answer your post in the manner it deserves before wednesday. I will try and do so when I return from my miltary service (though you may have to remind me then).

Sorry. I appreciate how much time and effort you have made with this post and how 'disapointing' my no response must be.
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