Cyprus-Forum.com

[Othellos]

Unlike states like USA, Australia and many others that were not based of stolen land? What modern day state is not based on stolen land to a greater or lesser degree?

Unlike the case of Cyprus, the stealing of land in the US happened gradually and over a very long period of time (16th-20th century). An it was not always "stealing" because when it all started, North America was still a largely unexplored territory, only parts of which were inhabited by indigenous "Indian" tribes who did not form an idependent and internationally recognised state like the Republic of Cyprus. But it is good to finally see you agreeing that Turkey has stolen the lands and homes of the Greek Cypriots here in Cyprus.

O.

[erolz]

Unlike the case of Cyprus, the stealing of land in the US happened gradually and over a very long period of time (16th-20th century). An it was not always "stealing" because when it all started, North America was still a largely unexplored territory, only parts of which were inhabited by indigenous "Indian" tribes who did not form an idependent and internationally recognised state like the Republic of Cyprus. But it is good to finally see you agreeing that Turkey has stolen the lands and homes of the Greek Cypriots here in Cyprus.

O.

My point was that the history of modern current day states is a history of the theft of land by one group against another.

For your information I have never denied that Turkey seized land from GC in Cyprus in 74. Do you deny that GC siezed land from TC in 63?

[RAFAELLA]

Bravo once again Mic!
I cannot wait to read more of your clever comments regarding Turks, just cannot wait!
Do I get the permission to use your "Black & White milk" comment anywhere necessary?
By the way...Kalo Pasxa!

[erolz]

Do I get the permission to use your "Black & White milk" comment anywhere necessary?

No comment then on TP's ability and willingness to state that balck is white then? Can not say I am surprised.

[RAFAELLA]

No comment then on TP's ability and willingness to state that balck is white then? Can not say I am surprised.[/quote]

Can u please be more specific? Sorry, but I didn't understand what you are trying to say

[erolz]

Can u please be more specific? Sorry, but I didn't understand what you are trying to say

What I am saying is that if you are to critisise Turkey and Turks for their apparent ability to claim that Black is White, should you not in all fairness also look at GC and the RoC's ability to do likewise and where it is clearly evident that GC / RoC are claiming that black is white themseleves critise this equally?

The clearest example of this behaviour on the part of GC / RoC (though not the only example) is TP's comments made in an interview (and available online and in english) recently (about 6 months ago from memory) that no TC was killed (by GC) in the period 63-74. Is this not a clear case of someone claiming that 'balck is white'? Does it not deserve and warrant equal critisim?

The article can be found here

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/Displayarti ... ember2.xml

The offending (and offensive) section can be found in the penultimate question and answer.

[garbitsch]

RAFAELLA, instead of applausing everything mic writes, please contribute some ideas of your own, of course if you have some.

[Othellos]

My point was that the history of modern current day states is a history of the theft of land by one group against another.

And you are saying that the so called "trnc" is no exception to this theft of land. Right?

For your information I have never denied that Turkey seized land from GC in Cyprus in 74.

How can anyone deny Turkey's ethnic cleansing, looting and stealing in Cyprus? 30 years after, the results are there for all to see.

Do you deny that GC siezed land from TC in 63?

Please be more specific, erolz. I think we have already discussed 1963 extensively. The fact that back then about half of the TC population moved with Turkey's strong encouragement (to put it mildly) into strategically located enclaves (read invasion bridgeheads) throughout the island, this was mainly the result of Ankara's partition policy which continued even after Independence in 1960. I will agree however that the enclave situation was not fair to many ordinary Cypriots, TCs and not only. I also believe that Makarios and co. were never able to adress the issue properly (not that they were the most suitable people to do this anyway).

What I also know is that 30 years after the invasion, TCs from Limassol and Paphos retain legal ownership of their lands and homes in the free areas of the Republic of Cyprus while more and more GC land in the occupied areas is being sold or allocated to foreigners.

O.

[garbitsch]

What I also know is that 30 years after the invasion, TCs from Limassol and Paphos retain legal ownership of their lands and homes in the free areas of the Republic of Cyprus while more and more GC land in the occupied areas is being sold or allocated to foreigners.

We've discussed this so many times before too. Real estate is a very big business in TRNC, and it is really difficult to stop the sale of former Greek properties. Many times the CTP-DP coalition government tried to stop the sale of ALL properties to foreigners (including Turkish citizens), but these actions didn't find any support base, because there is an idea in North that "Since Greek side rejected the unification plan and kept isolation of North, who gives a s**t to Greek properties. As an isolated country, the only way to put money into the budget is to allow foreigners to buy property, to allow foreign students to study in universities and to allow foreigners to gamble in the casinos. The Greek side should show some amount of good will towards Turkish Cypriots (we do not demand the recognition of TRNC BTW- do not show this as an excuse, we all know that it won't be recognised).

[erolz]

And you are saying that the so called "trnc" is no exception to this theft of land. Right?

I am pointing out that it is common for a state to be based on land previously taken from others. That is the histroy of human kind and the history of many if not most modern day nation states.

How can anyone deny Turkey's ethnic cleansing, looting and stealing in Cyprus? 30 years after, the results are there for all to see.

Turkey certainly did force the movement of GC (and ethnic group / community) from part of Cyprus. I do not deny this. However there has not be a wholsale effort to remove any traces of GC presense in the north since the events of 74. Certainly in 74 there was looting and theft (as there was looting and theft by GC in 64-67 from TC properties that they were forced to leave) as ineveitably there always is in such operations the world over. I have no realistic means of knowing if the Turksih army were any better or worse than any other army that has captured an area.

Please be more specific, erolz. I think we have already discussed 1963 extensively.

We have discussed this in the past and I found your perspective then narrow and one sided to be honest.

The fact that back then about half of the TC population moved with Turkey's strong encouragement (to put it mildly) into strategically located enclaves (read invasion bridgeheads) throughout the island, this was mainly the result of Ankara's partition policy which continued even after Independence in 1960.

Now I need to ask you to be more specific. When you refer to 'back then' are you refering to the mass movement of TC refugess fleeing their homes almost entirely as a result of GC violenbce against them or are you refering to movements of TC population prior to 63?

I will agree however that the enclave situation was not fair to many ordinary Cypriots, TCs and not only. I also believe that Makarios and co. were never able to adress the issue properly (not that they were the most suitable people to do this anyway).

The 'enclave situation' was primarily and principaly a result of systematic and (gc) state allowed (and even state supported) violence aimed at TC by GC. Yes there were some elements within the TC community for whom the 'enclave situation' served their political agenda but these elements could have never have created the kind of mass movement of people from their homes into the enclaves without the violence from GC (numericaly larger, militarily stronger and in control of all the organs of the state and it's weapons) against the TC community.