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Christofias gave in!

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Paphitis » Sun May 25, 2008 12:36 pm

unitedwestand wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
unitedwestand wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
mehmet wrote:
Anyone who is NOT a Cypriot Nationalist can only possibly be a Nationalist of some foreign entity… make no mistake.


You make the mistake. It is possible to be an internationalist.

What the hell is that? :?

All nationalisms lead in the same direction.

I doubt you even know the meaning of the word.

Start using a dictionary.


You are about 200 years behind when it comes to languages, we are inventing new words all the time. After cheap labour it is our biggest export. Keep up if you can :lol: :lol: :lol:


Yes I agree. Everything about Turkey is cheap.


Yes, the military and its hardware. Turkish white-goods that are exported all over Europe. In particular BEKO who has a 40% share in the UK market. Their automotive industry, all cheap. Cheap, cheap, cheap.

We call TCs that are not so desirable in society BAFIDI. Does this apply to the GCs? DO you call your not so smart one PAFITIS?


I do not understand your question. I thought that the forum had an English only policy. :?
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Postby unitedwestand » Sun May 25, 2008 12:38 pm

Paphitis wrote:
unitedwestand wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
unitedwestand wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
mehmet wrote:
Anyone who is NOT a Cypriot Nationalist can only possibly be a Nationalist of some foreign entity… make no mistake.


You make the mistake. It is possible to be an internationalist.

What the hell is that? :?

All nationalisms lead in the same direction.

I doubt you even know the meaning of the word.

Start using a dictionary.


You are about 200 years behind when it comes to languages, we are inventing new words all the time. After cheap labour it is our biggest export. Keep up if you can :lol: :lol: :lol:


Yes I agree. Everything about Turkey is cheap.


Yes, the military and its hardware. Turkish white-goods that are exported all over Europe. In particular BEKO who has a 40% share in the UK market. Their automotive industry, all cheap. Cheap, cheap, cheap.

We call TCs that are not so desirable in society BAFIDI. Does this apply to the GCs? DO you call your not so smart one PAFITIS?


I do not understand your question. I thought that the forum had an English only policy. :?


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: You just proved my point. G'day mate :lol: :lol:
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Postby Kikapu » Sun May 25, 2008 12:38 pm

Bananiot,

As Kifeas said, that BBF has been on the table for a long time, so there are no surprises there as to how the future political scene is going to look like to achieve a settlement, except of course an agreed partition on agreed land distribution or the status quo as being the other options. The question is how everyone is interpreting the BBF, and if you asked a man on the street what a Federation is, it will not be anywhere near what 2004 AP was, so if we are going to interpret BBF as an Federation, then we need to move past the AP, since I maintain it to be a Confederation and not a Federation, at to make matters worse, it was worse case possible for a "settlement". When you said the AP was "complicated", you were not kidding. But forget what I think of the AP, but look at what the 76% of GC's thought of AP, and since the last 4 years, people in Cyprus has been more aware what the AP entailed and will be ready to challenge the new settlement agreements with very watchful eyes, so that there are no room for errors on the next settlement, because the slightest imbalanced in one communities favour over the other, will produce a "NO" result. The TC's building "Red Lines" on many of the "hot topics" will certainly bring a rejection from the GC's, and at the same time, it is going to be very difficult for the TC's to come down from their "ivory tower" to accept anything less than the AP. This is why the AP was the worse plan at the time then as it is now. It has raised the expectations of one community and lowered the other. The two are polarizing the other.

The more interesting of the negotiations are going to come when the TC's will need to make compromises on Property rights, Guarantor's rights, freedom of movement, foreign troops in Cyprus and so on. Christofias may have agreed to something between a Federation and a Confederation as some fear as being in TC's favour at the moment to open up the talks to give the talks a "positive" atmosphere to keep the process going. As Christofias make demands for the TC's to move from their "Red Lines" on certain topics, it is when he will start taking back some of the "benefits" he is now offering to the TC's as he gets less in return in what he is asking. In my opinion, what he has offered at the moment, what are mostly already in the 1960 Constitution, so he does not feel like he is giving away the "store". Establishing a 2 Federal states under one government is also well understood by everyone for a long time. The interpretation by the GC's will be a "Federation" and to the TC's a "Confederation", because the latter allows the possibility to divorce from the Union at a later date, if they wished to once the north has been accepted as a "Turkish State" and not just a north state in a Federation. If you don't believe me Bananiot, ask any TC's on this forum to embrace a True Federation over a Confederation and see what your answer will be.

The TC's will always want to have the option to secede from the Union if need be, and this is the reason why any settlement under a AP BBF type is a support of a partition, if not directly, indirectly. So let me see you sell a True Federation to VP types who are the true NeoPartitionist from Denktash's followers. The truth is, you will not be able to do it Bananiot, so don't even waste your time. It is this Confederation concept is that is most dangerous for all Cypriots for further conflicts in the future and more bloodshed. If I had to choose this or an agreed partition on an agreed land distribution, I will too choose this option to save us from further heartaches down the road. If on the other hand we as Cypriots want to maintain the integrity of Cyprus as one country but two seperate states where the TC's and GC's are majority in each of their respected states, for the purpose of safeguarding their security, then Federation is the one that makes more sense.
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Postby Get Real! » Sun May 25, 2008 1:10 pm

Everyone is a “rejectionist” of some things and a “consensualist” to others, including Bananiot who is a “rejectionist” of democracy and a “consensualist” to partition.

Hope that clears things up...
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Postby CopperLine » Sun May 25, 2008 1:49 pm

Isn't there a basic political calculation that has to be made by everyone :

Factor 1 . The international community, including the EU, puts its faith in the Annan Plan but it was rejected, for good or bad.

Factor 2. Cyprus is, since the referendum, a member of the EU in which the expectation was that the northern comunity would eventually be formally incorporated into the acquis communitaire, but the northern Cyprus citizens would still have EU rights in the meantime.

Factor 3. Any new plan for the resolution of the Cyprus problem would either (a) have to be a development or variation on the Annan Plan or (b) be completely new 'virgin birth'. Either way it would be the last plan on offer.

Any of us might not like the detail of any of the proposals but the key question is 'on what basis - Annan or 'virgin birth' - will the next and final proposal be based ?' These are the only games in town. Rejection of these will simply cement permanent division.
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Postby Kikapu » Sun May 25, 2008 2:27 pm

CopperLine wrote:Isn't there a basic political calculation that has to be made by everyone :

Factor 1 . The international community, including the EU, puts its faith in the Annan Plan but it was rejected, for good or bad.

Factor 2. Cyprus is, since the referendum, a member of the EU in which the expectation was that the northern comunity would eventually be formally incorporated into the acquis communitaire, but the northern Cyprus citizens would still have EU rights in the meantime.

Factor 3. Any new plan for the resolution of the Cyprus problem would either (a) have to be a development or variation on the Annan Plan or (b) be completely new 'virgin birth'. Either way it would be the last plan on offer.

Any of us might not like the detail of any of the proposals but the key question is 'on what basis - Annan or 'virgin birth' - will the next and final proposal be based ?' These are the only games in town. Rejection of these will simply cement permanent division.


When we have 9,000 pages of the AP, of course there are going to be elements of the AP in the new settlement process. The question is, which elements and how are they strung together.

As the saying goes, "there's more than one way to skin a cat" and the 2004 AP was just one of them. I'm sure there are others as well. Lets explore the best possible one that suits the needs of both communities and not just one, if we want it to succeed.
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Postby boomerang » Sun May 25, 2008 2:33 pm

I remember everyone saying there won't be another plan, but here we go with another round...

When are some people, and hate mentioning names copperline, gonna learn that ethnic cleansing and colonozation in today's world are not accepted...

But then again copperline you can always wish that in the next life time it might be the norm...just like it was 200 and 500 odd years ago ...only can only pray hey copperline
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Postby Bananiot » Sun May 25, 2008 2:39 pm

Rejectionists are the people who have never agreed to a compromise solution to the Cyprus issue. Papadopoulos tops the list of rejectionists because he rejected all proposals to solve the Cyprob since 1959. These people want a unitary Cyprus with a Greek governing majority and a Turkish minority, at best. These people want Cyprus to be a Greek island and would never accept the Turkish Cypriots to be equal partners in any constitutional arrangement. "Simerini" newspaper is the darling of all rejectionists and some of us, old enough to remember, it was the newspaper that embraced the coupists after 1974, calling the military coup "epananges", that is, a necessity.

Furthermore, I thought Copperline summed things rather well in his last post. I can just add that in my opinion the Annan Plan was not confederation and to the most important point raised by Kikapu, the option for divorse for the Turkish Cypriot component state will simply not be there because of the European Union. Before Cyprus became a member this would have been a real issue. Now it is not. Can anyone imagine the Flemish part of Belgium deciding to leave the EU? This would mean a total disaster, economic and political.

Kikapu, I do not understand why you bring Denktash into this argument. Denktash campained staunchly against the Annan Plan and he also said that acceptance of it would mean the end of the Turkish Cypriot community. He even thanked the Greek Cypriots for voting "no".

The thorny issues which you referred to are there and need to be addressed. They would be the acid test of this new initiative, no doubt.
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Postby Kifeas » Sun May 25, 2008 2:47 pm

CopperLine wrote:Isn't there a basic political calculation that has to be made by everyone :


What??? What does the above sentence mean?

Factor 1 . The international community, including the EU, puts its faith in the Annan Plan but it was rejected, for good or bad.


The international community and the EU, what??? puts its faith in the Annan plan? What does this mean?

Factor 2. Cyprus is, since the referendum, a member of the EU in which the expectation was that the northern comunity would eventually be formally incorporated into the acquis communitaire, but the northern Cyprus citizens would still have EU rights in the meantime.
Actually it was the area of Cyprus under occupation, in which the acquis communitaire was suspended, not the (any) "northern community!" The aquis applies to areas or countries, not to communities!

Factor 3. Any new plan for the resolution of the Cyprus problem would either (a) have to be a development or variation on the Annan Plan or (b) be completely new 'virgin birth'. Either way it would be the last plan on offer.


Who says so, and where?

Anan plan was a solution proposal! "Virgin-birth" is a notion by which a new state of affairs emerges (a country or a nation,) which is not based on anything that pre-existed! What does the one have to do with the other? The Anan plan (or any other solution proposal) may contain the notion of "virgin birth" (many claim it did,) or it may not! How did you manage to mix two different issues, set aside to say that it is either the one or the other?

Any of us might not like the detail of any of the proposals but the key question is 'on what basis - Annan or 'virgin birth' - will the next and final proposal be based ?' These are the only games in town. Rejection of these will simply cement permanent division.


Sorry Copper, but you make no sense!
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Postby Bananiot » Sun May 25, 2008 2:52 pm

Sorry Kifeas, he makes perfect sense and you know it!
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