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When Turkey Goes Nuclear .....

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Oracle » Mon Sep 29, 2008 5:55 pm

..... and the fire!


TODAYSZAMAN wrote:
Why, when and how Turkey becomes a nuclear power (2)

MEHMET KALYONCU*


Parallel to the decline of the US military presence in Iraq, the current multi-ethnic Iraqi government in Baghdad has stagnated due to the conflict between the Sunni and the Shiite members of the government.

The Kurds in the north and in the central government refrain from becoming involved in the conflict and prefer rapprochement with Ankara. Once the ethnic conflict in Iraq turns into a civil war primarily between the Sunnis and the Shiites, Iran will continue to clandestinely support the Shiites militarily and politically. In the meantime, in order to divert the Muslims’ growing criticism of it for being the force behind the Shiite upheaval, Tehran will become increasingly hostile and confrontational with Israel. That is, Tehran will become more vocal about the “Israeli occupation of the holy Muslim land.” In order to back up its confrontational position, Tehran will also declare publicly that it is continuing with its nuclear program and that soon Iran will be a nuclear power. Alarmed with Iran’s threats, Israel and the US will carry out air strikes on Iran’s nuclear sites. The White House, if occupied by John McCain-Sarah Palin, would stand firmly behind and pledge its continuous military support to Israel. At this juncture, it may be useful to remember that, according to the projections of the US National Intelligence Council, a series of terrorist attacks in various European capitals of no lesser scale than the Sept. 11 attacks may take place between the years 2010 and 2012. Such likely terrorist attacks would naturally increase the overall European support for the so-called war on terror. This time, Iran would be legitimized as the main target.
In turn, Iran seeks to further exploit the situation in Iraq in order to turn it into a hell for US troops. The ongoing conflict between the Sunnis and Shiites in Iraq is triggering similar conflicts in neighboring Arab countries, most notably in Saudi Arabia. Tehran’s likely exploitation of those conflicts irritates Riyadh, Damascus and Cairo, forcing them to find ways to counterbalance Tehran. Acquiring nuclear weapons or the capability to build nuclear weapons would seemingly be the only means to counterbalance the emerging nuclear hegemon.

In the meantime, Turkish public opinion is increasing pressure on the Ankara government, be it an AK Party government or any other, to assert itself against Iran, which is constantly increasing its power in the region. The marginal leftist groups known as the ulusalcılar (neo-nationalists) and the center-left parties take advantage of the situation and criticize the AK Party government for its sluggishness in responding to national security challenges. In addition, the extremist groups on both the left and the right criticize the government for relying on Western security alliances such as NATO and not being able to even develop defense capabilities to protect the nation without permission from the US and the EU. In the meantime, as a major nuclear power, Russia is becoming increasingly assertive in its international relations in general and in its relations with its neighbors in particular, giving more salience to the idea that Turkey must have its own nuclear weapon capabilities.

Consequently, Ankara is intensifying its lobbying in Western capitals, most notably in Washington, to get the green light to develop nuclear weapons. Ankara presents itself as the most viable nuclear power in the region to counterbalance the nuclear Iran, pointing out that the other likely candidates, such as Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Syria, which lack democratic institutions, checks and balances and transparency, cannot be trusted with such military capabilities. Furthermore, Ankara is seeking to justify its quest for nuclear weapons by arguing that with or without the approval of its Western allies Turkey has to develop such capabilities because a nuclear Iran next to its border puts Turkish national security under threat. Accordingly, Ankara is seeking assistance from the major material and know-how suppliers, such as the United States, Canada, France, the United Kingdom and Israel. Finally, the United States tacitly approves Turkey’s acquisition of nuclear weapon capabilities in order to both counterbalance a nuclear Iran in the Middle East and to prevent another rogue state in the region besides Iran from becoming a nuclear power. Consequently, the US is competing with the other suppliers to seize the lion share in Turkey’s emerging nuclear market.

Alternative scenario

Any possible reluctance on the side of Turkey’s Western allies to provide Turkey with the necessary material and know-how to develop nuclear weapons will encourage Ankara to seek other possible partners, which are quite numerous, including Iran itself. The most likely scenarios and the alternative scenarios of Turkey acquiring nuclear weapons or the capability of building nuclear weapons differ from each other not in terms of Turkey’s driving motivations but in terms of the acquisition process.

It is possible that the United States and the European Union will not give the green light to Turkey to acquire nuclear weapon capabilities, and will at the same time try to deter Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria and/or another nuclear aspirant from acquiring or developing nuclear weapons. However, the two cannot succeed in doing so, as is the case with Iran. In addition, the US and the EU may not provide a credible and reliable guarantee to Turkey that they will protect Turkey against a nuclear threat. Actually, no such guarantee, including the NATO membership, may suffice to convince Turkey to stop its quest for nuclear weapon capabilities given the destructive capability of a nuclear attack and the fact that its very national security is at stake. Worried with the risk of remaining weak and vulnerable in its region and being threatened by a rogue nuclear power, Turkey would then seek nuclear weapon capabilities, risking confrontation with both the United States and the European Union. After all, then the domestic public opinion wouldn’t just condone Turkey acquiring nuclear weapons, but demand it from the government.

Given that Turkey’s Western allies do not condone Turkey becoming a nuclear power, Ankara is forced to seek non-Western partners and suppliers for its nuclear program. Turkey does not have difficulty in finding them. Actually, most likely, they would find Turkey anyway. Respectively, Pakistan, Russia, Israel and finally Iran are among the possible partners in Turkey’s nuclear endeavor. Historically, Pakistan has always been supportive of the idea of Turkey becoming a nuclear power. Islamabad first approached Ankara to offer Pakistan’s assistance to Turkey in developing nuclear weapons during the rule of Gen. Zia Ul-Haq in the 1960s and then during the rule of Nawaz Sharif in the late 1990s. However, Ankara had to disregard both offers because of concerns about alienating its Western allies. However, under the current circumstances, the national security threat Turkey faces and the Western allies’ refusal to address Turkey’s concerns make it imperative for Ankara to seek Pakistan’s help in developing a nuclear weapons program.

Once Turkey comes out as a possible buyer of nuclear material and technology, Israel, Turkey’s long-time ally in the Middle East, would also want to help Turkey by selling it the necessary material, equipment and know-how. Similarly, Russia is likely to reap the benefits of this emerging market for its nuclear technology before the US or the EU does. Finally, though reluctantly, Tehran would also be willing to assist Ankara, calculating that Turkey’s becoming a nuclear power would only further legitimize Iran having nuclear weapons, even if it would eliminate Iran’s chances of becoming the sole regional leader.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Mehmet Kalyoncu is an international relations analyst and author of the book titled “A Civilian Response to Ethno-Religious Conflict: The Gulen Movement in Southeast Turkey.”


19 September 2008, Friday


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Postby Cem » Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:22 pm

Hold your fire then and care to look at this last sentence of your pseudo-source:

"Mehmet Kalyoncu is an international relations analyst and author of the book titled “A Civilian Response to Ethno-Religious Conflict: The Gulen Movement in Southeast Turkey".

and also the title given at the top : TODAYS ZAMAN

Now, anyone who knows what the name "Gulen" and "Zaman" represent, would not further bother to read the rest of this crap.
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Postby Nikitas » Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:13 pm

"Photovoltaic systems need accumulators/batteries to store the solar energy. However, the problem with these systems is that they can not be used to power up energy-eating stuff like coolers, heaters and the water tank pumps unless accompanied by very costly dc /ac invertors.

As for the windmill, I don't think I can afford to have one in my small backyard not because of price but because of space."

You prove my point Cem by repeating the arguments used by the technocrats to prevent people using PV and wind.

You can power all your lights with PV systems, using one battery and a small inverter. All houses could have PV lights and thus reduce the load on the grid and avoind going nuclear.

In the UK and eleewhere there are now small wind mills that can light up a house and are noiseles. Next time you are down the marina look at how many yachts have them. If they can light a yacht and power its navigation systems they can be usedin a house too.

You can heat your water with the sun too, as you know. Now add all these together and you do not need much more power. And what you do need does not have to be provided by nuclear energy.
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Postby Cem » Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:04 pm

Nikitas wrote:"Photovoltaic systems need accumulators/batteries to store the solar energy. However, the problem with these systems is that they can not be used to power up energy-eating stuff like coolers, heaters and the water tank pumps unless accompanied by very costly dc /ac invertors.

As for the windmill, I don't think I can afford to have one in my small backyard not because of price but because of space."

You prove my point Cem by repeating the arguments used by the technocrats to prevent people using PV and wind.

You can power all your lights with PV systems, using one battery and a small inverter. All houses could have PV lights and thus reduce the load on the grid and avoind going nuclear.

In the UK and eleewhere there are now small wind mills that can light up a house and are noiseles. Next time you are down the marina look at how many yachts have them. If they can light a yacht and power its navigation systems they can be usedin a house too.

You can heat your water with the sun too, as you know. Now add all these together and you do not need much more power. And what you do need does not have to be provided by nuclear energy.


Nikitas, it is only a matter of time before you start accusing me of lobbying for nuclear tycoons, whereas I am strongly opposed to seeing anything nuclear within the radius of 5000 kms around Cyprus.
It is not the lighting I am concerned with since compared to cooling/heating units,residential lighting would consume much less KWatts.
How do I know ? Well, when this creep government in the north more than doubled the basic tariff so that I came up with an enormous bill, I immediately and desperately looked for an alternative and found a local dealer selling these systems, here it is:
http://www.normenerji.com.tr/ (it has english interface as well)
The guy assured me that the systems would be fine for lighting up thw hole house, even might support the fridge, but not the cooling/heating systems nor my electric powered owen.
So I gave up.
Now, if you kindly provide me with the basic cost of installing a system that can cater to cooling/heating , owen, fridge, dishwasher, etc, then I might consider switching to such a system.
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Postby zan » Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:14 pm

Cem wrote:
Nikitas wrote:"Photovoltaic systems need accumulators/batteries to store the solar energy. However, the problem with these systems is that they can not be used to power up energy-eating stuff like coolers, heaters and the water tank pumps unless accompanied by very costly dc /ac invertors.

As for the windmill, I don't think I can afford to have one in my small backyard not because of price but because of space."

You prove my point Cem by repeating the arguments used by the technocrats to prevent people using PV and wind.

You can power all your lights with PV systems, using one battery and a small inverter. All houses could have PV lights and thus reduce the load on the grid and avoind going nuclear.

In the UK and eleewhere there are now small wind mills that can light up a house and are noiseles. Next time you are down the marina look at how many yachts have them. If they can light a yacht and power its navigation systems they can be usedin a house too.

You can heat your water with the sun too, as you know. Now add all these together and you do not need much more power. And what you do need does not have to be provided by nuclear energy.


Nikitas, it is only a matter of time before you start accusing me of lobbying for nuclear tycoons, whereas I am strongly opposed to seeing anything nuclear within the radius of 5000 kms around Cyprus.
It is not the lighting I am concerned with since compared to cooling/heating units,residential lighting would consume much less KWatts.
How do I know ? Well, when this creep government in the north more than doubled the basic tariff so that I came up with an enormous bill, I immediately and desperately looked for an alternative and found a local dealer selling these systems, here it is:
http://www.normenerji.com.tr/ (it has english interface as well)
The guy assured me that the systems would be fine for lighting up thw hole house, even might support the fridge, but not the cooling/heating systems nor my electric powered owen.
So I gave up.
Now, if you kindly provide me with the basic cost of installing a system that can cater to cooling/heating , owen, fridge, dishwasher, etc, then I might consider switching to such a system.


Try using less......Cook by a wood burning stove and heat your house with it too.

I saw a great system the other day actually.....A single 16cc golf engine that provides enough power for 50 flats and has enough to sell back to the grid....The heat from the engine provides enough hot water for all those flats as well and some of the heating......Another conventional boiler has been installed to assist on colder days. A price of £1700 was quoted for full installation but might be out. Not bad for 50 flats.
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Postby CopperLine » Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:40 pm

Oracle,
The problem is that you are quite incapable of distinguishing speculation, wishful thinking, and conspiracies on the one hand from fact, historical record and evidence on the other hand.

It doesn't matter how many speculative articles you post it does not amount to evidence of Turkey having nuclear power plants, a nuclear programme still less a weapons programme.

Fact : Turkey does not have any nuclear power plants
Fact : Turkey doe not have a weapons programme
Fact : The Turkish government can't even decide whether it wants to develop a civil nuclear project.

So even the title of this thread is misleading - "when Turkey goes nuclear". A more accurate title might be 'IF Turkey goes nuclear' - but then that would undermine your reckless speculation...
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Postby Cem » Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:55 pm

zan wrote:
I saw a great system the other day actually.....A single 16cc golf engine that provides enough power for 50 flats and has enough to sell back to the grid....The heat from the engine provides enough hot water for all those flats as well and some of the heating......Another conventional boiler has been installed to assist on colder days. A price of £1700 was quoted for full installation but might be out. Not bad for 50 flats.


So, you think a Golf GTI V16 would come in cheaper ?? Ever aware of the latest taxes on such expensive goodies here in north cyprus, buddy ?
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Postby zan » Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:57 pm

Cem wrote:
zan wrote:
I saw a great system the other day actually.....A single 16cc golf engine that provides enough power for 50 flats and has enough to sell back to the grid....The heat from the engine provides enough hot water for all those flats as well and some of the heating......Another conventional boiler has been installed to assist on colder days. A price of £1700 was quoted for full installation but might be out. Not bad for 50 flats.


So, you think a Golf GTI V16 would come in cheaper ?? Ever aware of the latest taxes on such expensive goodies here in north cyprus, buddy ?


It's not a car but a system designed around the engine.....
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Postby Cem » Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:10 pm

CopperLine wrote:Oracle,
The problem is that you are quite incapable of distinguishing speculation, wishful thinking, and conspiracies on the one hand from fact, historical record and evidence on the other hand.

It doesn't matter how many speculative articles you post it does not amount to evidence of Turkey having nuclear power plants, a nuclear programme still less a weapons programme.

Fact : Turkey does not have any nuclear power plants
Fact : Turkey doe not have a weapons programme
Fact : The Turkish government can't even decide whether it wants to develop a civil nuclear project.
So even the title of this thread is misleading - "when Turkey goes nuclear". A more accurate title might be 'IF Turkey goes nuclear' - but then that would undermine your reckless speculation...


Copperline, I had told you this before. As long as Oracle transforms any thread into an endless and meaningless duel, you can not discuss anything serious with her.

By merely looking at the credibility of so-called sources she has quoted above, there is no need to push this thread further.

Still, hoping that there might be a meager chance of getting them into her thick skull, I would like to quote the facts you mentioned here once more in bold letters.

Fact : Turkey does not have any nuclear power plants
Fact : Turkey does not have a weapons programme
Fact : The Turkish government can't even decide whether it wants to develop a civil nuclear project.
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Postby Cem » Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:19 pm

zan wrote:
Cem wrote:
zan wrote:
I saw a great system the other day actually.....A single 16cc golf engine that provides enough power for 50 flats and has enough to sell back to the grid....The heat from the engine provides enough hot water for all those flats as well and some of the heating......Another conventional boiler has been installed to assist on colder days. A price of £1700 was quoted for full installation but might be out. Not bad for 50 flats.


So, you think a Golf GTI V16 would come in cheaper ?? Ever aware of the latest taxes on such expensive goodies here in north cyprus, buddy ?


It's not a car but a system designed around the engine.....


Sorry, I forgot to pin up the accompanying emoticon in my previous post. :lol:

The one you mention above might be considered on the basis of what is called "economies of scale" given that cost per flat falls. However, given the trend of petroleum prices, it is not my cup of tea for my single humble house.
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