Cyprus-Forum.com

[zan]

This chart summarizes data available from public sources. Precise assessment of a state's capabilities is difficult because most weapons of mass destruction (WMD) programs remain secret and cannot be verified independently. [/quote

Oracle uses her usual selective economy with words which alters the meaning from the original. The original is as above and comes from a footnote in a Monterey Institute report about ... Israel (not Turkey)... written in 1998 (not current) ... and says that it uses public sources and that is why it is difficult for the report writers to make a precise assessment. In other words if one uses public sources it is difficult to make a precise assessment. If one uses intelligence sources - and that's what the inspection and verification agencies do - then pretty accurate assessments can be made.

What is a precise assessment ? A precise assessment is one which will tell you the number of kilos and even grammes of useable material, where in the nuclear cycle various quantities are, what kind of processes techniques are used, how many warheads have been produced. But this level of precision is not needed to ascertain whether a weapons programme is up and running or about to be launched.

Anyway, there's no evidence of ulterior motives in Turkey not least because Turkey doesn't even have a civil nuclear programme.

[/i]

I think she really thought that she could get Bush to attack Turkey on her say so Copperline....

[Oracle]

This chart summarizes data available from public sources. Precise assessment of a state's capabilities is difficult because most weapons of mass destruction (WMD) programs remain secret and cannot be verified independently.

Oracle uses her usual selective economy with words which alters the meaning from the original. The original is as above and comes from a footnote in a Monterey Institute report about ... Israel (not Turkey)... written in 1998 (not current) ... and says that it uses public sources and that is why it is difficult for the report writers to make a precise assessment. In other words if one uses public sources it is difficult to make a precise assessment. If one uses intelligence sources - and that's what the inspection and verification agencies do - then pretty accurate assessments can be made.

What is a precise assessment ? A precise assessment is one which will tell you the number of kilos and even grammes of useable material, where in the nuclear cycle various quantities are, what kind of processes techniques are used, how many warheads have been produced. But this level of precision is not needed to ascertain whether a weapons programme is up and running or about to be launched.

Anyway, there's no evidence of ulterior motives in Turkey not least because Turkey doesn't even have a civil nuclear programme.

[/i]

I think she really thought that she could get Bush to attack Turkey on her say so Copperline....

Really, and how did you conclude that Zan ? ... certainly not from anything I may have said.

But never mind, just like CopperLine, it matters less what I have actually said and it's more important what you want to convey that I have said.

Neither of you is capable of an unbiased, detached discussion because you are both obsessed with proving Oracle wrong ... even if you just make up stuff!

The reality is that Nuclear power stations are an easy front to the next step, of nuclear weapons production. It is precisely this difficulty of proving the next level, that caused the problems in Iraq. But that does not mean Turkey will play ball and just opt for nuclear energy when it has flexed distrust at its neighbour Iran and has carried out enough reciprocation with Pakistan to indicate it would like to follow in Islamic footsteps.

These are not just my speculations. They are the views of sources available to us in the West. They may be right, they may be wrong. If wrong, one has to ask why there is so much distrust of Turkey?

Is it because of its past performance? Then that is something I do have experience of, and if that is the case, I would offer my two-pence worth and say I would condemn Turkey as one of the most untrustworthy countries to be allowed anywhere near nuclear energy resources!

[zan]

This chart summarizes data available from public sources. Precise assessment of a state's capabilities is difficult because most weapons of mass destruction (WMD) programs remain secret and cannot be verified independently.

Oracle uses her usual selective economy with words which alters the meaning from the original. The original is as above and comes from a footnote in a Monterey Institute report about ... Israel (not Turkey)... written in 1998 (not current) ... and says that it uses public sources and that is why it is difficult for the report writers to make a precise assessment. In other words if one uses public sources it is difficult to make a precise assessment. If one uses intelligence sources - and that's what the inspection and verification agencies do - then pretty accurate assessments can be made.

What is a precise assessment ? A precise assessment is one which will tell you the number of kilos and even grammes of useable material, where in the nuclear cycle various quantities are, what kind of processes techniques are used, how many warheads have been produced. But this level of precision is not needed to ascertain whether a weapons programme is up and running or about to be launched.

Anyway, there's no evidence of ulterior motives in Turkey not least because Turkey doesn't even have a civil nuclear programme.

[/i]

I think she really thought that she could get Bush to attack Turkey on her say so Copperline....

Really, and how did you conclude that Zan ? ... certainly not from anything I may have said.

But never mind, just like CopperLine, it matters less what I have actually said and it's more important what you want to convey that I have said.

Neither of you is capable of an unbiased, detached discussion because you are both obsessed with proving Oracle wrong ... even if you just make up stuff!

The reality is that Nuclear power stations are an easy front to the next step, of nuclear weapons production. It is precisely this difficulty of proving the next level, that caused the problems in Iraq. But that does not mean Turkey will play ball and just opt for nuclear energy when it has flexed distrust at its neighbour Iran and has carried out enough reciprocation with Pakistan to indicate it would like to follow in Islamic footsteps.

These are not just my speculations. They are the views of sources available to us in the West. They may be right, they may be wrong. If wrong, one has to ask why there is so much distrust of Turkey?

Is it because of its past performance? Then that is something I do have experience of, and if that is the case, I would offer my two-pence worth and say I would condemn Turkey as one of the most untrustworthy countries to be allowed anywhere near nuclear energy resources!

I'll second that...Didn't bother reading the rest......Well it would go against my principles wouldn't it!!!!

[CBBB]

And Cyprus Dying are discussing lime scale in their baths!

http://www.cyprusliving.org/phpbb/nfphp ... hp?t=12200

[zan]

And Cyprus Dying are discussing lime scale in their baths!

http://www.cyprusliving.org/phpbb/nfphp ... hp?t=12200

Thanks mate......My toilets will sparkle by the morning??? better than Oracles silly useless thread anyway!!!

[Oracle]

And Cyprus Dying are discussing lime scale in their baths!

http://www.cyprusliving.org/phpbb/nfphp ... hp?t=12200

Well they can test their limescale removers on Zan's petrified brain!

[zan]

And Cyprus Dying are discussing lime scale in their baths!

http://www.cyprusliving.org/phpbb/nfphp ... hp?t=12200

Well they can test their limescale removers on Zan's petrified brain!

SSSHHHHHH! I can hear fizzing!!!!!

[CopperLine]

Oracle,
It is not a question of proving you wrong. Your selective quotations are basically dishonest. Any force they may have relies on forum posters not bothering to look at the orginal where, if they do so, one finds a different quite often opposite meaning to that which you gave.

It is not a question of proving you 'wrong' when you change the meaning of words from 'some' to 'only'. The word 'some' does not mean 'only' - it never has done, and it cannot mean that even in Oracle's private fantasy world.

It is not a question of proving you wrong when it comes to you claiming 'evidence' for XYZ. Your postings replace evidence with speculation and conjecture. That a thousand people share the same speculation does not convert that speculation into a fact, it does not transform that speculation into evidence. Pushing speculation and pretending it were fact or evidence is equally dishonest. It has nothing to do with proving something 'right' or 'wrong'.

[Oracle]

Oracle,
It is not a question of proving you wrong. Your selective quotations are basically dishonest. Any force they may have relies on forum posters not bothering to look at the orginal where, if they do so, one finds a different quite often opposite meaning to that which you gave.

It is not a question of proving you 'wrong' when you change the meaning of words from 'some' to 'only'. The word 'some' does not mean 'only' - it never has done, and it cannot mean that even in Oracle's private fantasy world.

It is not a question of proving you wrong when it comes to you claiming 'evidence' for XYZ. Your postings replace evidence with speculation and conjecture. That a thousand people share the same speculation does not convert that speculation into a fact, it does not transform that speculation into evidence. Pushing speculation and pretending it were fact or evidence is equally dishonest. It has nothing to do with proving something 'right' or 'wrong'.

Once again, I ask you to show me where I have changed some to only since you persist in your defamatory dance with neither proof nor evidence.

You offer nothing in the way of additional worthwhile information, merely resorting to picking on words out of your coprophagous cranium, with which to troll my posts.

Provide evidence or stop attributing to others precisely what you are afflicted with.

Better still, in the interests of continuing an interesting theme, why don't you show some credible evidence which contradicts the inferences becoming apparent in Turkey's will to a nuclear future.

[Cem]

The Turkish-Pakistani Connection

Turkey has long been known as a vital transit and ass.....

Total and utter bollocks. Speculation from beginning to end. Fact : Turkey does not have a single nuclear power station. Fact : Turkey does not produce its own nuclear technology. Fact : Turkey does not have a nuclear weapons programme. Fact : Turkey has expressed no ambition to be a nuclear weapons power.

So Oracel I'm sure you could dig up dozens if not hundreds of articles from the internet speculating on all sorts of things, including nuclear smuggling, but none of it amounts to a weapons programme and none of it supports your initial speculation of Turkey having an ulterior motive.

No, evidence and verification is not hard to come by. There is a sophisticated and permanent system of surveillance on nuclear materials market, not least the 'black market', and a comprehensive system of inspections. Sure sometimes precise information is difficult to verify, but as I said before, you cannot hide a weapons programme.

Pantheman Iraq never had so-called WMD. Inspection after inspection confirmed this. Bush and Blair simply lied to the world at large.

Copperline, whatever you might say, you can not argue with a brainwashed bigot like Oracle.

Pakistan had nuclear weapons because in no way this country has had any aspirations to become either democratic or to be part of the western world.

North Korea could acquire nukes as it is one of the most oppressive regimes still insulated from outside world, save for China.

Neither Iran nor Iraq under Saddam has had any aspirations to become part of the western world, on the contrary both challenged the EU and the USA on many accounts.

Besides, those famous WMD were nowhere to be found in Iraq following US invasion, otherwise Bush administration would have been extremely jubilant and made this public long time ago.

Remains Israel, however, as you know that the developers of the first "A" bomb associated with the Manhattan Project leading to the first test at Los Alamos on July 16, 1945 were all jewish scientists like Oppenheimer, Szilard, Teller, etc.. So it was only a matter of time before the secrets of building the bomb would be transmitted to Israel.

As for Turkey, it may not be the best democracy in the world, but Turkey has always strived to have strong ties with the west, as a member of Nato, as a candidate for the EU (which will ever last), has OECD, EP memberships , etc...

Moreover, it is a country with one of the highest external debts vis-a-vis the IMF and the World Bank.

Such a high level of dependency on the west, makes it impossible for Turkey to have a secret nuclear agenda and consequently evade west's supervision, even should she decide to build a nuclear plant.