Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

I was only answering one part of your earlier post, which was "now you cannot deny both dies have existed peaceful and prospered" and not the whole Cyprus problem. I did not even bring up the departure of the Turkish Troops since it was not relevant to what I was responding to. But now that you brought up the security factor, security can also be provided by others and not just by Turkey, but that's another topic for another time. And yes, my family and myself did suffer in the early 60's and it has often been a question in my mind, as to why Turkey, Britain and Greece did not do anything to correct the problems before it got much bigger as time went by, to a point where Greece with the Junta became also part of the problem, and yet Turkey and Britain stood by not doing anything. When Turkey finally did come, she also became part of the problem and not part of a solution. Any open minded person can see how the island of Cyprus was the intent for Greece, Turkey and Britain, and not the Cypriot people themselves. Their actions speak for themselves.

Turkey did not do anything in the 60s,dear Kikapu,simply because the USA did not let her...In 1964 Inonu tried to intervene but was told he didn't have the permission to use the American weapons given to it by NATO for defence purposes...In 1974,the whole thing was orchestrated by the Pentagon...They gave the green light to the Junta in Greece for the Simpson coup,and they gave the green light to Turkey for the following invasion...They simply did not want to risk letting Makarios get any closer to the Soviets or to the Independent Block,at the time...Alexander Graig,the one-time USA Foreign secretary is on the record for reminding Turgut Ozal that Turkey was in Cyprus to protect Nato interests...This was recently reported in most of the TC papers online...While we keep kicking each other here and there and everywhere,the ones who are truly responsible for our sorry state are laughing their heads off...

Bir,

Thanks for your explanation of the events in the early 60's. Actually I was aware of those facts and my question was more or less rhetorical to VP, since the conversations always seems to revolve around that had Turkey not "intervened" in '74, that the TC's would have been annihilated by the GC's. My question to VP and others was, that the threat should have been there from '63-'74 and Turkey should have come regardless what the US said, if they believed that we TC's were in danger of being annihilated, but they never came. I guess we were either not in danger of being annihilated or that we were but Turkey did not care. When they did come, after given the Green Light by the US to take part of the island, it had more to do with dealing a blow to the Junta in Greece than arriving to save our skin, since by '74, tensions were far less than previous years. The living situation for the TC's were not much better however, but neither was the threat of annihilation of the TC's, despite the orchestrated coup, which Turkey and Britain were also in the loop of knowing what was going to happen, thanks to the US, and if ones needs more proof, all they have to do is look at the non actions taken by Britain to play her part of being a guarantor.

So once the treat of the coup was over as well as the threat of the TC's being annihilated, Turkey at that point should have restored the Cypriot Government and withdrawn as soon as things were back to normal. But as you pointed out, Turkey was in Cyprus to protect the US interest and not the interest of Cypriots. Even though the US may no longer have interests in Cyprus, Turkey has found herself trapped there and any withdrawal would almost will be seen by the Turkish Military as a "defeat". This is why I say, that Turkey has become part of Cyprus's problem and not part of a solution as most TC's tend to believe, and the new rounds of peace talks is showing that. It is no longer what the TC's want for a settlement, but rather what it is that Turkey wants. Ironically, Greece and Britain are on the sidelines and does not appear to be making any demands on how Cyprus should reunite. So much for the usefulness of the guarantorships and it is no wonder, that the GC's no longer want them any more. The TC's are not willing to let go just yet, but like anything in life, there will come a time when we will need to be
"weaned from our mother's milk". These are the first signs of being on the road to Independence, be it be a baby or a nation. Our time has come also.

[BirKibrisli]

I was only answering one part of your earlier post, which was "now you cannot deny both dies have existed peaceful and prospered" and not the whole Cyprus problem. I did not even bring up the departure of the Turkish Troops since it was not relevant to what I was responding to. But now that you brought up the security factor, security can also be provided by others and not just by Turkey, but that's another topic for another time. And yes, my family and myself did suffer in the early 60's and it has often been a question in my mind, as to why Turkey, Britain and Greece did not do anything to correct the problems before it got much bigger as time went by, to a point where Greece with the Junta became also part of the problem, and yet Turkey and Britain stood by not doing anything. When Turkey finally did come, she also became part of the problem and not part of a solution. Any open minded person can see how the island of Cyprus was the intent for Greece, Turkey and Britain, and not the Cypriot people themselves. Their actions speak for themselves.

Turkey did not do anything in the 60s,dear Kikapu,simply because the USA did not let her...In 1964 Inonu tried to intervene but was told he didn't have the permission to use the American weapons given to it by NATO for defence purposes...In 1974,the whole thing was orchestrated by the Pentagon...They gave the green light to the Junta in Greece for the Simpson coup,and they gave the green light to Turkey for the following invasion...They simply did not want to risk letting Makarios get any closer to the Soviets or to the Independent Block,at the time...Alexander Graig,the one-time USA Foreign secretary is on the record for reminding Turgut Ozal that Turkey was in Cyprus to protect Nato interests...This was recently reported in most of the TC papers online...While we keep kicking each other here and there and everywhere,the ones who are truly responsible for our sorry state are laughing their heads off...

Bir,

Thanks for your explanation of the events in the early 60's. Actually I was aware of those facts and my question was more or less rhetorical to VP, since the conversations always seems to revolve around that had Turkey not "intervened" in '74, that the TC's would have been annihilated by the GC's. My question to VP and others was, that the threat should have been there from '63-'74 and Turkey should have come regardless what the US said, if they believed that we TC's were in danger of being annihilated, but they never came. I guess we were either not in danger of being annihilated or that we were but Turkey did not care. When they did come, after given the Green Light by the US to take part of the island, it had more to do with dealing a blow to the Junta in Greece than arriving to save our skin, since by '74, tensions were far less than previous years. The living situation for the TC's were not much better however, but neither was the threat of annihilation of the TC's, despite the orchestrated coup, which Turkey and Britain were also in the loop of knowing what was going to happen, thanks to the US, and if ones needs more proof, all they have to do is look at the non actions taken by Britain to play her part of being a guarantor.

So once the treat of the coup was over as well as the threat of the TC's being annihilated, Turkey at that point should have restored the Cypriot Government and withdrawn as soon as things were back to normal. But as you pointed out, Turkey was in Cyprus to protect the US interest and not the interest of Cypriots. Even though the US may no longer have interests in Cyprus, Turkey has found herself trapped there and any withdrawal would almost will be seen by the Turkish Military as a "defeat". This is why I say, that Turkey has become part of Cyprus's problem and not part of a solution as most TC's tend to believe, and the new rounds of peace talks is showing that. It is no longer what the TC's want for a settlement, but rather what it is that Turkey wants. Ironically, Greece and Britain are on the sidelines and does not appear to be making any demands on how Cyprus should reunite. So much for the usefulness of the guarantorships and it is no wonder, that the GC's no longer want them any more. The TC's are not willing to let go just yet, but like anything in life, there will come a time when we will need to be
"weaned from our mother's milk". These are the first signs of being on the road to Independence, be it be a baby or a nation. Our time has come also.

Yep,a very correct analysis,dear Kikapu...
The "annihilation " threat was, of course,greatly exaggerated.By Denktash and Co whose aim was Taksim from the very beginning...And Turkey was essentially concerned about what was good for Turkey,and later for the USA and NATO,in all her actions...And it is still the case today...Have you heard the saying "Esegi dovemeyen semerini dover"(He who can't beat the donkey beats the donkey's saddle)??? That is what we are all doing here...We can't beat the USA or the British,so we beat each other up...

[Muzzy70]

Yes God only knows what would have happened. My guess is that Cyprus would be a peaceful place with no big problems. thats what would have happened! But thats just my guess like you can have some guess also. What we know as fact is what happened! Not what would have happened! and what happened is thousands of people died and many more ethnically cleansed and you still occupy our homes!!

The return of MUZZY70 ! Hmmm.........if Turkey had not intervened then what would have happened ? :

1: The annihilation of the Turkish Cypriot community.
2: Declaration of Union with Greece.
3: Destruction of the Cyprus Republic.

[Muzzy70]

Once again a thread descends into farce ! Again we have G/C's going on about 'majority' poulation(s) etc, etc. Wake up to the fact that Cyprus is for all Cypriots!

A correction Iceman. The Annan Plan which was on the table at Copenhagen was far less favourable to the T/C community than the one which was put to a referendum. The G/C's were always a shoe in for EU membership.

Piratis & Alexiss: Try and be rational fellas. Any failure concerning the upcoming talks WILL result in a T/C referendum for that community to decide it's own fate. There has been no solution to the Cyprus 'problem' for so long now because there was never the will for compromise on the part of both communities. Hopefully this will change but the biggest obstacle to a solution is the clear G/C refusal to accept the T/C's as political equals and a total unwillingness to share power. That, dear friends, is why the Annan Plan was rejected by the Greek Cypriot community. You either accept us or you don't. If you don't then unfortunately the division WILL be permanent.

I agree entirely that Cyprus is for all Cypriots but it certainly isn't for Greeks or in your case for you since by flying the Turkish flag you are surrendering your rights to be a Cypriot , your therefore a foreigner , are you a settler ?

I fly the Turkish flag because there's no Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus flag on this site ! This does not mean that I have surrendered my rights to be a Cypriot, you patronising individual.

[Rebel.Without.A.Pause]

Muzzy, dont those who want to establish the 'TRNC' (or Turkish colony on north Cyprus) prefer to give more rights to Turkish settlers from Anatolia than indigenous Cypriots themselves. I think this constitutes you surrending your Cypriot identity (if you ever had one that is).

[Nikitas]

Bir said:

"The "annihilation " threat was, of course,greatly exaggerated.By Denktash and Co whose aim was Taksim from the very beginning..."

The irony is that a purely Cypriot deal, among GCs and TCs with no outside interference, which culminated in partition would not be so unpalatable. What makes the idea of partition totally unaccepatble is that it was projected as new Turkish conquest. It is funny that Denktash could not see this objection, maybe Taksim was not in his plans as much as a reconquest by Turkey. If I am not mistaken the plan formulated by the Turkish general staff in the 50s had the code name Retaking of Cyprus.

On the other side, the Greek side, one often hears older Greek army officers talking about "taking Cyprus" which shows the idea of Enosis to have been equally misleading. They said Enosis when they meant conquest.

Our two motherlands seem to be in tune as to the treatment they mete out to us, following to the letter the old saying: "the one you showed me was not the one you stuck me with".

[BirKibrisli]

Bir said:

"The "annihilation " threat was, of course,greatly exaggerated.By Denktash and Co whose aim was Taksim from the very beginning..."

The irony is that a purely Cypriot deal, among GCs and TCs with no outside interference, which culminated in partition would not be so unpalatable. What makes the idea of partition totally unaccepatble is that it was projected as new Turkish conquest. It is funny that Denktash could not see this objection, maybe Taksim was not in his plans as much as a reconquest by Turkey. If I am not mistaken the plan formulated by the Turkish general staff in the 50s had the code name Retaking of Cyprus.

On the other side, the Greek side, one often hears older Greek army officers talking about "taking Cyprus" which shows the idea of Enosis to have been equally misleading. They said Enosis when they meant conquest.

Our two motherlands seem to be in tune as to the treatment they mete out to us, following to the letter the old saying: "the one you showed me was not the one you stuck me with".

Denktash was and is a Turanist,Nikitas...He believes in Greater Turkey,uniting all the Turkic people of the world under one flag, in one nation state,under the same leader,preferably himself....I am sure you have had similarly dangerous people on the GC/Greek side.They might not have had the opportunities our Denktash Baba had to shine so brightly...

[bilako22]

Muzzy, dont those who want to establish the 'TRNC' (or Turkish colony on north Cyprus) prefer to give more rights to Turkish settlers from Anatolia than indigenous Cypriots themselves. I think this constitutes you surrending your Cypriot identity (if you ever had one that is).

Usual greek lies . Evidence?

[Muzzy70]

Bir said:

"The "annihilation " threat was, of course,greatly exaggerated.By Denktash and Co whose aim was Taksim from the very beginning..."

The irony is that a purely Cypriot deal, among GCs and TCs with no outside interference, which culminated in partition would not be so unpalatable. What makes the idea of partition totally unaccepatble is that it was projected as new Turkish conquest. It is funny that Denktash could not see this objection, maybe Taksim was not in his plans as much as a reconquest by Turkey. If I am not mistaken the plan formulated by the Turkish general staff in the 50s had the code name Retaking of Cyprus.

On the other side, the Greek side, one often hears older Greek army officers talking about "taking Cyprus" which shows the idea of Enosis to have been equally misleading. They said Enosis when they meant conquest.

Our two motherlands seem to be in tune as to the treatment they mete out to us, following to the letter the old saying: "the one you showed me was not the one you stuck me with".

Denktash was and is a Turanist,Nikitas...He believes in Greater Turkey,uniting all the Turkic people of the world under one flag, in one nation state,under the same leader,preferably himself....I am sure you have had similarly dangerous people on the GC/Greek side.They might not have had the opportunities our Denktash Baba had to shine so brightly...

Hey Birkibrisli, could you please tell me what you mean by the term 'True Republic of Cyprus' ?

[Nikitas]

Apropos Turanism, it reminds me of that time that the late Turgut Ozal had visited one of the central Asian republics shortly after the fall of the Soviet empire. The locals dressed him (much to his distaste) in folk dress and then he had to listen to the local leader who said "we are the true Turks, not you" in a friendly tone obviously.

The incident reminded me of the times that GCs tried to tell mainland Greeks that union between Cyprus and Greece is not a one way street, that Cypriots had something valuable to bring to the new entity which would result from this union (presumably between equals). The expression of distaste in their faces was identical to that of Ozal during that quaint ceremony!

There was never a true intention of Enosis or Taksim, in each case it was thinly veiled conquest by the motherlands. And Cypriots like dumb asses fought and killed each other in a proxy fight that the motherlands had no stomach to carry out among themselves. We are a funny lot!