Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

Here:

Land Ownership in Cyprus by Ethnic Group:

60.9% - Greek/Armenian/Maronite Cypriots
12.3% - Turkish Cypriots
0.5% - Others
26.3% - State/Church Land

So the share of TCs would be 12.3% + (18% of 26.3%) = ?

These seem to be the more accurate figures, than the ones above and out of my head, however there is a mistake. The 26.3% is only the State land (public.) Church land is included in the GC land percentage (60.9%,) a well as the Evkaf land is included in the TC percentage (12.3%.)

These % can be examined by independent experts, who can also take into the radical drop in TC land ownership and disputes raised by those with grievances, whatever the outcome both sides will accept without debate, how about that Kifeas?

[Viewpoint]

Kifeas, acceptance by the EU and UN are an irrelevance to us because states will recognise the TRNC. You are s*it scared of this and I bet that in such an eventuality you will come running. Some member states of the EU and UN have recognised Kosovo and this will happen with the TRNC. Just wake up people !!!!!

Muzzy 70,

If you are counting on George Bush to give some kind of recognition to the "TRNC" before he leaves office, it may be as good as Bush saying that he wants a two state solution to Israel-Palestinian problems before leaving office, which is approaching very rapidly. If the whole matter needs to be approved by the congress and the senate, it will not see the day of light since the Democrats control both houses and their numbers will increase after the next election in November. The Democrats have already put Turkey on notice about the Armenian Genocide and Occupation in Cyprus issues only few months ago when Bush intervened for the measure not to come to the floor for a vote, because it may make matters worse for the US troops in Iraq. As soon as Bush is gone, Barak Obama as the new President and the Democrats are going to end the war in Iraq as we know it, therefore, there will be less reliant on Turkey's geographical location, which will bring up the Armenian Genocide and Cyprus Occupation back in focus again, and the Democrats will be in a much stronger position to pass any measures they want, because of their increased members in the Congress and the Senate come this November.


As for some EU member states individually recognising Kosovo, will not be the same as these individual EU states doing the same thing to one of their own (Cyprus) by recognising the "TRNC" for the reasons Kifeas gave you earlier. If by off chance that Bush goes crazier than he already is and wants to recognize the "TRNC", then Bush will be signing Turkey's political death sentence to enter the EU in the future. Turkey's best friends to help her into the EU are Britain and the USA. Therefore, why would the USA kill off Turkey's chances to enter the EU for the sake of the "TRNC". I can assure you, to the USA and Britain, Turkey comes before the "TRNC". The last 24 years since 1983's "Independence" should tell you something, as to why the "TRNC" has not gotten anymore states to recognize it, including all those "brotherly" Muslim States.

I'm sorry but, the future of the TC's are as one country with the GC's in Cyprus, under one government as equal citizens. The best case scenario will be a North state and a South state in a True Federation with True Democracy where anyone has rights to their properties, freedom of movement and constitutional right to vote in the state they live in by all citizens of Cyprus. Anything less than that, is a partition no matter what label you put on it, specially if it say Annan Plan on the cover.

With out the safeguards we require forget it TCs would rather wait for recognition even if it never arrived or be swallowed up by Turkey than live in a GC state run by GCs, we will never capitulate to this or become foreigners in our own country.

[Muzzy70]

Yo Kikapoo did I say that I want Bush to recognise the TRNC ? No. I'm looking at the endgame in the event of failed negotiations. If so then recognition from whichever quarter will be inevitable.

[Kikapu]

Yo Kikapoo did I say that I want Bush to recognise the TRNC ? No. I'm looking at the endgame in the event of failed negotiations. If so then recognition from whichever quarter will be inevitable.

The fact that for the last few months it has been said many times over by Talat and the gang, that a solution needs to happen this year or else a recognition will be sought, as if it has not been not since 1983, so, when you said that
"because the states will recognise the TRNC", the fact the Bush is kicked out this year, and the demand that the solution is found this year or else, and you put all those together, and it all comes to your first sentence, which was
"Yo Kikapoo did I say that I want Bush to recognise the TRNC ? No."......................so in effect, your answer is a "YES" that you do want Bush to recognise the "TRNC" because USA run by the Democrats will not do such a thing. The Americans are looking ways to build trust with European countries and others, after Bush destroyed most good relationships with those countries.!!

[Kifeas]

Yo Kikapoo did I say that I want Bush to recognise the TRNC ? No. I'm looking at the endgame in the event of failed negotiations. If so then recognition from whichever quarter will be inevitable.

Muzzy, the negotiations will indeed fail, but hey, look and read up for the reasons they will fail …from Turkish sources!

Yet all this optimism is unrealistic because, simply, as pro-status quo forces gain strength in Turkey, the likelihood for a solution on the island fades away.

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/yazar ... rno=142209

Invisible negotiator:
As a matter of fact, though two sides are negotiating on the island, there exists an unofficial third side the shadow and presence of which is felt deeply in every move: The Turkish military representing Turkey on the island. I think there is no other such example in world history. This invisible non-negotiator side will be the party to make judgment on any agreement.The difficult internal situation that the Justice and Development Party (AKP) government faces now is of course an extraordinarily negative factor in the Cyprus talks. Just like in the Kurdish issue, the government cannot control the military in Cyprus, to whom it happily subcontracted the issue. Under these circumstances, even if there is an agreement on the island at the end of a process this will not have any guarantees. Though Christophias describe himself as an independent and Talat dependent, both are dependents of this non-negotiating third party. If two Cypriots come together, there will emerge with three viewpoints indeed!The word “symphony” which Christophias used often during our encounter was music to my ear. In Greek it means harmony of sounds and in fact agreement.

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/arti ... sid=104759

[unitedwestand]

Kifeas, acceptance by the EU and UN are an irrelevance to us because states will recognise the TRNC. You are s*it scared of this and I bet that in such an eventuality you will come running. Some member states of the EU and UN have recognised Kosovo and this will happen with the TRNC. Just wake up people !!!!!

Muzzy 70,

If you are counting on George Bush to give some kind of recognition to the "TRNC" before he leaves office, it may be as good as Bush saying that he wants a two state solution to Israel-Palestinian problems before leaving office, which is approaching very rapidly. If the whole matter needs to be approved by the congress and the senate, it will not see the day of light since the Democrats control both houses and their numbers will increase after the next election in November. The Democrats have already put Turkey on notice about the Armenian Genocide and Occupation in Cyprus issues only few months ago when Bush intervened for the measure not to come to the floor for a vote, because it may make matters worse for the US troops in Iraq. As soon as Bush is gone, Barak Obama as the new President and the Democrats are going to end the war in Iraq as we know it, therefore, there will be less reliant on Turkey's geographical location, which will bring up the Armenian Genocide and Cyprus Occupation back in focus again, and the Democrats will be in a much stronger position to pass any measures they want, because of their increased members in the Congress and the Senate come this November.


As for some EU member states individually recognising Kosovo, will not be the same as these individual EU states doing the same thing to one of their own (Cyprus) by recognising the "TRNC" for the reasons Kifeas gave you earlier. If by off chance that Bush goes crazier than he already is and wants to recognize the "TRNC", then Bush will be signing Turkey's political death sentence to enter the EU in the future. Turkey's best friends to help her into the EU are Britain and the USA. Therefore, why would the USA kill off Turkey's chances to enter the EU for the sake of the "TRNC". I can assure you, to the USA and Britain, Turkey comes before the "TRNC". The last 24 years since 1983's "Independence" should tell you something, as to why the "TRNC" has not gotten anymore states to recognize it, including all those "brotherly" Muslim States.

I'm sorry but, the future of the TC's are as one country with the GC's in Cyprus, under one government as equal citizens. The best case scenario will be a North state and a South state in a True Federation with True Democracy where anyone has rights to their properties, freedom of movement and constitutional right to vote in the state they live in by all citizens of Cyprus. Anything less than that, is a partition no matter what label you put on it, specially if it say Annan Plan on the cover.

With out the safeguards we require forget it TCs would rather wait for recognition even if it never arrived or be swallowed up by Turkey than live in a GC state run by GCs, we will never capitulate to this or become foreigners in our own country.

Without Turkeys guarantee for safe existence for us TCs on the island there can never be a solution. If that was the case I would never set foot on it again.

I would feel safer in Zimbabwe than in Cyprus under Greek rule. Just the thought of it scares me shitless.

[Kikapu]

With out the safeguards we require forget it TCs would rather wait for recognition even if it never arrived or be swallowed up by Turkey than live in a GC state run by GCs, we will never capitulate to this or become foreigners in our own country.

VP,

I don't blame you for wanting safeguards. Safeguards are one thing but a total disregard to True Democracy and Human Rights is another and has no place in Cyprus, EU or any other place for that matter. The best safeguards I have seen that gives you the safeguards that you want was provided by Kifeas way back which you yourself approved. Why don't you propose Kifeas's Plan to Talat to ask for it to be part of the solution. It answers your 50-50 power share and the veto vote all in one.

I'm sure Kifeas's plan will make you EFENDILER in your own country of Cyprus and not foreigners.

I just hope Kifeas has not withdrawn his offer already.

Here is Kifeas's Plan:

If we have a house of 100 members (80 GCs plus 20 TCs) and decisions are taken on simple majority, it means that at least any 51 members out of the above 100 members will have to approve it. However, in order to qualify as simple majority, at least 4 (or 6) of the votes must come (included in the 51 votes needed) from the 20 TCs (20% or 30% of the TC members,) and at least 16 (or 24) of the votes must come from (included in the 51votes needed) from the 80 GCs.

For example we can have the following combination for simple majority to qualify.
I take a special case example that needs 30% minimum from each side.

Case 1:
6 TCs plus 45 GCs equals 51 /100. (Qualifies)

Case 2:
20 TCs plus 31 GCs equals 51 /100. (Qualifies)

Case 3:
5 TCs plus 46 GCs equals 51 /100 (it doesn’t qualify)

Case 4:
1 TC plus 80 GCs equals 81 /100 (it doesn’t qualify)

[Kifeas]

Kifeas, acceptance by the EU and UN are an irrelevance to us because states will recognise the TRNC. You are s*it scared of this and I bet that in such an eventuality you will come running. Some member states of the EU and UN have recognised Kosovo and this will happen with the TRNC. Just wake up people !!!!!

Muzzy 70,

If you are counting on George Bush to give some kind of recognition to the "TRNC" before he leaves office, it may be as good as Bush saying that he wants a two state solution to Israel-Palestinian problems before leaving office, which is approaching very rapidly. If the whole matter needs to be approved by the congress and the senate, it will not see the day of light since the Democrats control both houses and their numbers will increase after the next election in November. The Democrats have already put Turkey on notice about the Armenian Genocide and Occupation in Cyprus issues only few months ago when Bush intervened for the measure not to come to the floor for a vote, because it may make matters worse for the US troops in Iraq. As soon as Bush is gone, Barak Obama as the new President and the Democrats are going to end the war in Iraq as we know it, therefore, there will be less reliant on Turkey's geographical location, which will bring up the Armenian Genocide and Cyprus Occupation back in focus again, and the Democrats will be in a much stronger position to pass any measures they want, because of their increased members in the Congress and the Senate come this November.


As for some EU member states individually recognising Kosovo, will not be the same as these individual EU states doing the same thing to one of their own (Cyprus) by recognising the "TRNC" for the reasons Kifeas gave you earlier. If by off chance that Bush goes crazier than he already is and wants to recognize the "TRNC", then Bush will be signing Turkey's political death sentence to enter the EU in the future. Turkey's best friends to help her into the EU are Britain and the USA. Therefore, why would the USA kill off Turkey's chances to enter the EU for the sake of the "TRNC". I can assure you, to the USA and Britain, Turkey comes before the "TRNC". The last 24 years since 1983's "Independence" should tell you something, as to why the "TRNC" has not gotten anymore states to recognize it, including all those "brotherly" Muslim States.

I'm sorry but, the future of the TC's are as one country with the GC's in Cyprus, under one government as equal citizens. The best case scenario will be a North state and a South state in a True Federation with True Democracy where anyone has rights to their properties, freedom of movement and constitutional right to vote in the state they live in by all citizens of Cyprus. Anything less than that, is a partition no matter what label you put on it, specially if it say Annan Plan on the cover.

With out the safeguards we require forget it TCs would rather wait for recognition even if it never arrived or be swallowed up by Turkey than live in a GC state run by GCs, we will never capitulate to this or become foreigners in our own country.

Without Turkeys guarantee for safe existence for us TCs on the island there can never be a solution. If that was the case I would never set foot on it again.

I would feel safer in Zimbabwe than in Cyprus under Greek rule. Just the thought of it scares me shitless.

Then I am afraid you are only left with two options ahead. The first is that you will have to emigrate from Cyprus, and the second that you will have to live in the 18% corner of Cyprus in a partition deal!

[Kikapu]

Without Turkeys guarantee for safe existence for us TCs on the island there can never be a solution. If that was the case I would never set foot on it again.

I would feel safer in Zimbabwe than in Cyprus under Greek rule. Just the thought of it scares me shitless.

I thought when you said "united-we-stand" that you meant all Cypriots TC's and GC's and not just the TC's and Turkey.!!

[miltiades]

Once again a thread descends into farce ! Again we have G/C's going on about 'majority' poulation(s) etc, etc. Wake up to the fact that Cyprus is for all Cypriots!

A correction Iceman. The Annan Plan which was on the table at Copenhagen was far less favourable to the T/C community than the one which was put to a referendum. The G/C's were always a shoe in for EU membership.

Piratis & Alexiss: Try and be rational fellas. Any failure concerning the upcoming talks WILL result in a T/C referendum for that community to decide it's own fate. There has been no solution to the Cyprus 'problem' for so long now because there was never the will for compromise on the part of both communities. Hopefully this will change but the biggest obstacle to a solution is the clear G/C refusal to accept the T/C's as political equals and a total unwillingness to share power. That, dear friends, is why the Annan Plan was rejected by the Greek Cypriot community. You either accept us or you don't. If you don't then unfortunately the division WILL be permanent.

I agree entirely that Cyprus is for all Cypriots but it certainly isn't for Greeks or in your case for you since by flying the Turkish flag you are surrendering your rights to be a Cypriot , your therefore a foreigner , are you a settler ?