Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

Bir, you keep failing to understand what I am talking about! I suggest you read more carefully what I am talking about! The notion of a country having intervention rights into another country, and the notion that one country is the “guarantor” of another country’s constitutional order, and the notion that it has a saying in how the internal constitutional framework is shaped, instead of this being down to the free will of the political forces within a country, to determine; reduces on the one hand such a country from being a truly sovereign and independed one, or as we aspire Cyprus to become, and on the other hand, it (the notion of having intervention rights and a saying into another country) encourages the country that it feels is in a possession of such a right, through an agreement, to do interfere politically (and presumably otherwise) into the internal affairs of the other country! In other words, the notion of unilateral intervention rights places one independed and sovereign country under the direct or indirect suzerainty of another country! It encourages or allows the one country to get involved and influence or manipulate politically the other country, since there is an issue of dependency of the one from the other! More so, when the possessor of such a right is a country like Turkey, and please do not tell me that it is a mere lack of trust towards Turkey simply because I am a GC and have bad experiences! The whole world sees how Turkey is coping with her own internal paradoxes and instabilities, and how unable it is to guarantee its own citizens’ some political stability and promote or maintain the minimum of democratic culture to her own people! I am truly surprised you do not see what I am trying to say here!

I know what you are saying,Kifeas,but I am talking about something else...Another issue altogether..I am not talking about the politics of it..Or the legalities...I am talking about how on earth will we get the TCs to accept the withdrawal of the Turkish troops and not insist on unilateral intervension rights...One way that comes to my mind is to disarm the Cypriot Army after the solution,or as part of the solution,so that the TCs would not be scared to death of being annihilated...But it is okey..The world is not ready for such "foolish" ideas...It is better to talk about war,and the armed struggle for liberating our country...And our right to defend ourselves,even when we know we can't do such a thing realistically...

Bir, if what you are saying is that the GC army, as a condition to the TCs not insisting on Turkey's unilateral interventions rights, should also be dissolved, and Cyprus should be demilitarized, I have to tell you that this has already being a standard proposal of the GC side, as part of the solution, for a long time now! However, the TC side and Turkey, despite this GC proposal which you now also refer to, continue to insist that Turkey's unilateral intervention rights are non-negotiable, and must continue after any solution, no matter what! I am surprised you are not aware of these proposals of the GC side, and the fact that Turkey and the TC side ignore them and continue to insist on protecting Turkey's "rights in Cyprus," as they refer to them so cynically!

Kifeas,I truly was not aware of any proposal by the RoC to dissolve the CNG...When was this made?? And was it a serious proposal???
Because of the mistrust Turkey and the TCs would've seen this as some sort of ploy...Hence the deadly standoff continues...My logic works like this: there is little point trying to play this game on Turkey's groundrules,on Turkey's strength...Why not shift the ground and take the initiative??? Lets pull the rug from under Turkey's feet by unilaterally disarming now...By now I mean after the latest round of negotiations fail,as no doubt they will...Unleash the great waves of goodwill which this move will generate,and remove any justification for Turkish troops to be present in Cyprus...I am proposing a tactical and psychological move which will go a long way to convince the TCs that the GCs are ready to put the bloody past behind us...What do the RoC have to lose by such a move???

[BirKibrisli]

I am talking about how on earth will we get the TCs to accept the withdrawal of the Turkish troops and not insist on unilateral intervension rights...

This is based on your fallacy that Turkish Cypriots control the presence of the Turkish military on Cyprus when in actual fact they control absolutely NOTHING. Turkey is simply using the Turkish Cypriots as an excuse to remain on the island and even if the Turkish Cypriots were to ask her to leave she would find another excuse to get her way.

One way that comes to my mind is to disarm the Cypriot Army after the solution,or as part of the solution,so that the TCs would not be scared to death of being annihilated...

And this is the part where you unveil your mask for all to see! Any country unfortunate enough to be a neighbor of trigger-happy Turkey will ALWAYS need as strong a military as possible… I dare say 10% or even 15% for defense. The BEST guarantee for Turkish Cypriots not to be “annihilated” is to stop their treasonous ways and start acting like bloody Cypriots for once, but you fail to make mention of that “little” problem your community has and pass the buck to the Greek Cypriots so that they may always remain defenseless and vulnerable to accommodate your community’s STUPIDITIES!

But it is okey..The world is not ready for such "foolish" ideas...It is better to talk about war,and the armed struggle for liberating our country...And our right to defend ourselves,even when we know we can't do such a thing realistically...

I’ll take my chances thank you, even at the risk of paying the ultimate price, but I’ll certainly not surrender to the blackmails of an UNIVITED minority constantly swimming upstream and parlaying with Turkey!

If you REALLY want to help your people start teaching some sense into their screwed up heads and quit asking the Greek Cypriots to forever accommodate those irresponsible fools! It's HIGH TIME your people starting facing up to their responsibilities and cut the bullshit, and if they do not listen then let them reap what they sow.

I know for a fact that my people are smart enough to be around for centuries if not millenniums to come but I don’t know about yours.

You can't say on one hand that the TCs have no say over their fate,and on the other ask me to make them see the wrongs of their ways...What good would it do???
I happen to agree with you. Their fate has not been in their hands for a long time...The Tcs have been the biggest losers in this bloody situation. So stop blaming the victims,GR...It is too facile and reprehensible...

I am trying to save all Cypriots from another catastrophy which would certainly follow if you keep going with your talk of war and change of the balance of power etc...Armed struggle by the EOKA and the TMT got us where we are today primarily..Plus Turkey's willingness to please the USA and the NATO...Plus the Greek Junta's stupidity...but that is all history now...Cyprus is in the EU and can afford to make a bold gesture to counter one of the excuses used by Turkey to stay in Cyprus...I guess I am expecting too much sense and sensibility from my compatriots who are hell bent on achieving martyrdom...I am warning you,GR...There are no more virgins left in Heaven,the Islamic fundamentalists have seen to that

[repulsewarrior]

...just because of our geographic position, the island should belong to "no one" militarily (especially Turkey). It requires of the population the realisation of their position as one inclusive society, as this island's dwellers, which as a function provides for three continents the services they need for social-exchange.

Turkey, and Britain remain as interlocutors with their reason for being here. It is of such importance to them that the defence of their position is out of the question because "it just is". The UN and NATO seem like natural partners in this effort to find compliments to these military forces with our own, for the defence of the Principals which these Allies hold together as dear.

With the prospect of economic benefit, for Cypriots as a whole, it will be possible to suggest that this compliment of Armed Forces, from here, can react to the regional conditions, while as their Headquarters (hire highly trained Cypriots), the island will support this alignment which provides for our alliances' cooperation, and their confidence in each other, where they can be United in mutual defence.

[bilako22]

Said the Plonker !!

Welcome to the plonkers club.

[bilako22]

Bir said:
"
I know you guys don't really believe this fear is real,but it is.Very much so..."

Bir, I have always believed that the fear of TCs that GCs are going to annihilate them is very real. In past debates with VP I have pointed to this perception and how I believe that whether it is based on facts or not, it must be respected. After all, if we say we are compatriots then we must have empathy for the fears of our compatriots regardless of their factual foundation.

Starting from this point of accepting and respecting this fear, the GCs must demostrate beyond doubt that there will be no danger to TCs. I have thought of several ways to do this, like having a TC as chief of police, a more numerous TC police than GC police so that TCs feel secure, but all this to happen within the context of Cypriots among ourselves, because the GC fear is of Turkey's intentions and plans for the island and as long as the Turkish army is here the fears of the two communities will always afect attempts to live normal lives.

Nikitas, because of the fact of this (unrealistic) fear that the TCs have, the GC side is and has always been willing to examine ways and accept solutions that would somehow reduce our country from that of a purely sovereign and independed nation, in order to alleviate it! Unfortunately, the only way the TCs want this (unrealistic) fear of theirs to be alleviated, is through the re-incorporation and /or maintenance of what we GCs maintain as a (very realist) fear in our minds, which is the unilateral intervention rights of Turkey!

Why the one is a realistic fear, and the other one is not, it can be argued, explained and proved very easily; however, the TCs seem not to be “willing” or are “allowed” to think or even hear about it, simply because it doesn't suit the interests of the "motherland!"

The brainwashing is truly too strong,dear Kifeas...And it goes back a long way,as you know well...It will need something of monumental scope to shift it...I know this is not acceptable to you,but something like complete and unilateral disarmament,and collection of all the weapons from the people,might do it...But if you said "who will protect us from Turkey?" I can only ask another question "Can all the armaments the NG has now protect Cyprus from Turkey????" If the realistic answer is "NO" then we might as well not have a NG...I know this is drastic but nothing short of this will make the TCs feel safe....

Not only should the CNG not be dispanded, but defence spending should double, perhaps triple.

You are an idiot . Instead of spending precious resources on much needed health care , looking after the old and education you prefer to waste it on the utterly useless CNG.

[bilako22]

Bir said:
"
I know you guys don't really believe this fear is real,but it is.Very much so..."

Bir, I have always believed that the fear of TCs that GCs are going to annihilate them is very real. In past debates with VP I have pointed to this perception and how I believe that whether it is based on facts or not, it must be respected. After all, if we say we are compatriots then we must have empathy for the fears of our compatriots regardless of their factual foundation.

Starting from this point of accepting and respecting this fear, the GCs must demostrate beyond doubt that there will be no danger to TCs. I have thought of several ways to do this, like having a TC as chief of police, a more numerous TC police than GC police so that TCs feel secure, but all this to happen within the context of Cypriots among ourselves, because the GC fear is of Turkey's intentions and plans for the island and as long as the Turkish army is here the fears of the two communities will always afect attempts to live normal lives.

Nikitas, because of the fact of this (unrealistic) fear that the TCs have, the GC side is and has always been willing to examine ways and accept solutions that would somehow reduce our country from that of a purely sovereign and independed nation, in order to alleviate it! Unfortunately, the only way the TCs want this (unrealistic) fear of theirs to be alleviated, is through the re-incorporation and /or maintenance of what we GCs maintain as a (very realist) fear in our minds, which is the unilateral intervention rights of Turkey!

Why the one is a realistic fear, and the other one is not, it can be argued, explained and proved very easily; however, the TCs seem not to be “willing” or are “allowed” to think or even hear about it, simply because it doesn't suit the interests of the "motherland!"

The brainwashing is truly too strong,dear Kifeas...And it goes back a long way,as you know well...It will need something of monumental scope to shift it...I know this is not acceptable to you,but something like complete and unilateral disarmament,and collection of all the weapons from the people,might do it...But if you said "who will protect us from Turkey?" I can only ask another question "Can all the armaments the NG has now protect Cyprus from Turkey????" If the realistic answer is "NO" then we might as well not have a NG...I know this is drastic but nothing short of this will make the TCs feel safe....

Not only should the CNG not be dispanded, but defence spending should double, perhaps triple.

And what would that achieve exactly,dear compatriot,apart from economic hardship for the majority of Cypriots????

The defence of our homeland dear compatriot. Our right to defence still remains our fundamental right. and these talks will fail.

You may have a fear of anihilation, but so do we at the hands of the Turkish Army.

Hey idiot , you have no defence except the one Turkey and the rest of the world provide .

[bilako22]

Bir said:
"
I know you guys don't really believe this fear is real,but it is.Very much so..."

Bir, I have always believed that the fear of TCs that GCs are going to annihilate them is very real. In past debates with VP I have pointed to this perception and how I believe that whether it is based on facts or not, it must be respected. After all, if we say we are compatriots then we must have empathy for the fears of our compatriots regardless of their factual foundation.

Starting from this point of accepting and respecting this fear, the GCs must demostrate beyond doubt that there will be no danger to TCs. I have thought of several ways to do this, like having a TC as chief of police, a more numerous TC police than GC police so that TCs feel secure, but all this to happen within the context of Cypriots among ourselves, because the GC fear is of Turkey's intentions and plans for the island and as long as the Turkish army is here the fears of the two communities will always afect attempts to live normal lives.

Nikitas, because of the fact of this (unrealistic) fear that the TCs have, the GC side is and has always been willing to examine ways and accept solutions that would somehow reduce our country from that of a purely sovereign and independed nation, in order to alleviate it! Unfortunately, the only way the TCs want this (unrealistic) fear of theirs to be alleviated, is through the re-incorporation and /or maintenance of what we GCs maintain as a (very realist) fear in our minds, which is the unilateral intervention rights of Turkey!

Why the one is a realistic fear, and the other one is not, it can be argued, explained and proved very easily; however, the TCs seem not to be “willing” or are “allowed” to think or even hear about it, simply because it doesn't suit the interests of the "motherland!"

The brainwashing is truly too strong,dear Kifeas...And it goes back a long way,as you know well...It will need something of monumental scope to shift it...I know this is not acceptable to you,but something like complete and unilateral disarmament,and collection of all the weapons from the people,might do it...But if you said "who will protect us from Turkey?" I can only ask another question "Can all the armaments the NG has now protect Cyprus from Turkey????" If the realistic answer is "NO" then we might as well not have a NG...I know this is drastic but nothing short of this will make the TCs feel safe....

Bir, the problem is not whether Turkey has the capacity under any or most circumstances to intervene in Cyprus! It certainly does! The problem lies down to whether Turkey should be given the right to believe or assume that it legally has such a right to intervene -more so unilaterally! It is the later that we want to avoid, and not necessarily the former, which is as you have said is not so feasible anyway! If Turkey, besides her undisputable capacity to intervene military, also maintains the idea that this can be done more or less legally, then will certainly always feel the temptation to get involved in our internal affairs on the false premise that it has a stake in Cyprus, and who knows if at some stage in the future it will not also attempt to create the conditions which may possibly allow her to use what it believes to be her right to unilaterally intervene military!

Turkey, being such an unstable country itself, with so many conflicting interests among the various power centers in it, and with a complete lack of political and democratic culture as a nation and a society; cannot possibly be trusted to be given the right of a (unilateral) guarantor of Cyprus' constitutional order, more so with unilateral intervention rights! We GCs cannot possibly tolerate the idea that being an EU member state, and with a political and democratic culture evidently more advanced than that of Turkey, must have Turkey guarantee in such a way our internal and /or external affairs! Furthermore, the last time Turkey did make use of such a "right," in 1974, we are all witnesses of how "well" it carried out such a "duty!" Furthermore, it is not to the interest of the TC community either, for Turkey to maintain such an idea, because this will be an ongoing encouragement for Turkey to often become involved in their own community's and state's internal affairs, something which will also be influencing the smooth functioning of the central government, and also inevitably that of the GC state!

I say, sorry TCs, but please do find someone else, or another system or mechanism, to play such a role, but not Turkey -more so in a unilateral way, otherwise you do not mean business when you claim you want a solution and re-unification! I mean, don't you see what is now happening in the north, where you, TCs, cannot move even your single small finger unless Turkey gives its approval, only because she feels you are depending on her? Do you also want to drag the GCs into that very same situation in the future, instead of you seeking ways to shrug off the dynasty of Turkey's domination, and be able to act independently as one of the two communities in Cyprus? How do you expect the GCs to trust such a scenario, and accept to share power with your community in a re-united Cyprus?

You can talk about this forever , Turkey will not move away from Cyprus completely . Accept the facts on the ground and do the best out of your situation.

[bilako22]

I am talking about how on earth will we get the TCs to accept the withdrawal of the Turkish troops and not insist on unilateral intervension rights...

This is based on your fallacy that Turkish Cypriots control the presence of the Turkish military on Cyprus when in actual fact they control absolutely NOTHING. Turkey is simply using the Turkish Cypriots as an excuse to remain on the island and even if the Turkish Cypriots were to ask her to leave she would find another excuse to get her way.

One way that comes to my mind is to disarm the Cypriot Army after the solution,or as part of the solution,so that the TCs would not be scared to death of being annihilated...

And this is the part where you unveil your mask for all to see! Any country unfortunate enough to be a neighbor of trigger-happy Turkey will ALWAYS need as strong a military as possible… I dare say 10% or even 15% for defense. The BEST guarantee for Turkish Cypriots not to be “annihilated” is to stop their treasonous ways and start acting like bloody Cypriots for once, but you fail to make mention of that “little” problem your community has and pass the buck to the Greek Cypriots so that they may always remain defenseless and vulnerable to accommodate your community’s STUPIDITIES!

But it is okey..The world is not ready for such "foolish" ideas...It is better to talk about war,and the armed struggle for liberating our country...And our right to defend ourselves,even when we know we can't do such a thing realistically...

I’ll take my chances thank you, even at the risk of paying the ultimate price, but I’ll certainly not surrender to the blackmails of an UNIVITED minority constantly swimming upstream and parlaying with Turkey!

If you REALLY want to help your people start teaching some sense into their screwed up heads and quit asking the Greek Cypriots to forever accommodate those irresponsible fools! It's HIGH TIME your people starting facing up to their responsibilities and cut the bullshit, and if they do not listen then let them reap what they sow.

I know for a fact that my people are smart enough to be around for centuries if not millenniums to come but I don’t know about yours.

This must be the biggest load of bullshit ever put on this forum .
I am sure that the Greeks in Izmir and Constantinople also thought that the Turks would reap what they sowed and that the Greeks would "be around for centuries" in these two cities.

[Paphitis]

Bir said:
"
I know you guys don't really believe this fear is real,but it is.Very much so..."

Bir, I have always believed that the fear of TCs that GCs are going to annihilate them is very real. In past debates with VP I have pointed to this perception and how I believe that whether it is based on facts or not, it must be respected. After all, if we say we are compatriots then we must have empathy for the fears of our compatriots regardless of their factual foundation.

Starting from this point of accepting and respecting this fear, the GCs must demostrate beyond doubt that there will be no danger to TCs. I have thought of several ways to do this, like having a TC as chief of police, a more numerous TC police than GC police so that TCs feel secure, but all this to happen within the context of Cypriots among ourselves, because the GC fear is of Turkey's intentions and plans for the island and as long as the Turkish army is here the fears of the two communities will always afect attempts to live normal lives.

Nikitas, because of the fact of this (unrealistic) fear that the TCs have, the GC side is and has always been willing to examine ways and accept solutions that would somehow reduce our country from that of a purely sovereign and independed nation, in order to alleviate it! Unfortunately, the only way the TCs want this (unrealistic) fear of theirs to be alleviated, is through the re-incorporation and /or maintenance of what we GCs maintain as a (very realist) fear in our minds, which is the unilateral intervention rights of Turkey!

Why the one is a realistic fear, and the other one is not, it can be argued, explained and proved very easily; however, the TCs seem not to be “willing” or are “allowed” to think or even hear about it, simply because it doesn't suit the interests of the "motherland!"

The brainwashing is truly too strong,dear Kifeas...And it goes back a long way,as you know well...It will need something of monumental scope to shift it...I know this is not acceptable to you,but something like complete and unilateral disarmament,and collection of all the weapons from the people,might do it...But if you said "who will protect us from Turkey?" I can only ask another question "Can all the armaments the NG has now protect Cyprus from Turkey????" If the realistic answer is "NO" then we might as well not have a NG...I know this is drastic but nothing short of this will make the TCs feel safe....

Not only should the CNG not be dispanded, but defence spending should double, perhaps triple.

And what would that achieve exactly,dear compatriot,apart from economic hardship for the majority of Cypriots????

The defence of our homeland dear compatriot. Our right to defence still remains our fundamental right. and these talks will fail.

You may have a fear of anihilation, but so do we at the hands of the Turkish Army.

Hey idiot , you have no defence except the one Turkey and the rest of the world provide .

So I should be greatful to Turkey then for the defence she provides?

Now that I have heard your drivell, I believe defence expenditure should be 45% of GDP, just like it is in Isreal.

And you are the one that can talk. 85% of Turkey's population is below the poverty line and yet your military still finds the money to equip it's armed forces with state of the art weopons.

WHY DOESN'T TURKEY SPEND THIS MONEY ON EDUCATION AND HEALTH INSTEAD PLONKER?

[Muzzy70]

Ladies and gentleman. Any problem with Turkey keeping 650 troops only on the island along with the Treaty of Guarantee until she becomes a member of the EU ? This would allay T/C fears post settlement. It's a realistic proposal and one which should be grasped. In fact I'd suggest that something along these lines will eventually be agreed upon by both leaders.