Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

Bir said:
"
I know you guys don't really believe this fear is real,but it is.Very much so..."

Bir, I have always believed that the fear of TCs that GCs are going to annihilate them is very real. In past debates with VP I have pointed to this perception and how I believe that whether it is based on facts or not, it must be respected. After all, if we say we are compatriots then we must have empathy for the fears of our compatriots regardless of their factual foundation.

Starting from this point of accepting and respecting this fear, the GCs must demostrate beyond doubt that there will be no danger to TCs. I have thought of several ways to do this, like having a TC as chief of police, a more numerous TC police than GC police so that TCs feel secure, but all this to happen within the context of Cypriots among ourselves, because the GC fear is of Turkey's intentions and plans for the island and as long as the Turkish army is here the fears of the two communities will always afect attempts to live normal lives.

Nikitas, because of the fact of this (unrealistic) fear that the TCs have, the GC side is and has always been willing to examine ways and accept solutions that would somehow reduce our country from that of a purely sovereign and independed nation, in order to alleviate it! Unfortunately, the only way the TCs want this (unrealistic) fear of theirs to be alleviated, is through the re-incorporation and /or maintenance of what we GCs maintain as a (very realist) fear in our minds, which is the unilateral intervention rights of Turkey!

Why the one is a realistic fear, and the other one is not, it can be argued, explained and proved very easily; however, the TCs seem not to be “willing” or are “allowed” to think or even hear about it, simply because it doesn't suit the interests of the "motherland!"

The brainwashing is truly too strong,dear Kifeas...And it goes back a long way,as you know well...It will need something of monumental scope to shift it...I know this is not acceptable to you,but something like complete and unilateral disarmament,and collection of all the weapons from the people,might do it...But if you said "who will protect us from Turkey?" I can only ask another question "Can all the armaments the NG has now protect Cyprus from Turkey????" If the realistic answer is "NO" then we might as well not have a NG...I know this is drastic but nothing short of this will make the TCs feel safe....

Bir, the problem is not whether Turkey has the capacity under any or most circumstances to intervene in Cyprus! It certainly does! The problem lies down to whether Turkey should be given the right to believe or assume that it legally has such a right to intervene -more so unilaterally! It is the later that we want to avoid, and not necessarily the former, which is as you have said is not so feasible anyway! If Turkey, besides her undisputable capacity to intervene military, also maintains the idea that this can be done more or less legally, then will certainly always feel the temptation to get involved in our internal affairs on the false premise that it has a stake in Cyprus, and who knows if at some stage in the future it will not also attempt to create the conditions which may possibly allow her to use what it believes to be her right to unilaterally intervene military!

Turkey, being such an unstable country itself, with so many conflicting interests among the various power centers in it, and with a complete lack of political and democratic culture as a nation and a society; cannot possibly be trusted to be given the right of a (unilateral) guarantor of Cyprus' constitutional order, more so with unilateral intervention rights! We GCs cannot possibly tolerate the idea that being an EU member state, and with a political and democratic culture evidently more advanced than that of Turkey, must have Turkey guarantee in such a way our internal and /or external affairs! Furthermore, the last time Turkey did make use of such a "right," in 1974, we are all witnesses of how "well" it carried out such a "duty!" Furthermore, it is not to the interest of the TC community either, for Turkey to maintain such an idea, because this will be an ongoing encouragement for Turkey to often become involved in their own community's and state's internal affairs, something which will also be influencing the smooth functioning of the central government, and also inevitably that of the GC state!

I say, sorry TCs, but please do find someone else, or another system or mechanism, to play such a role, but not Turkey -more so in a unilateral way, otherwise you do not mean business when you claim you want a solution and re-unification! I mean, don't you see what is now happening in the north, where you, TCs, cannot move even your single small finger unless Turkey gives its approval, only because she feels you are depending on her? Do you also want to drag the GCs into that very same situation in the future, instead of you seeking ways to shrug off the dynasty of Turkey's domination, and be able to act independently as one of the two communities in Cyprus? How do you expect the GCs to trust such a scenario, and accept to share power with your community in a re-united Cyprus?

[unitedwestand]

Bir said:
"
I know you guys don't really believe this fear is real,but it is.Very much so..."

Bir, I have always believed that the fear of TCs that GCs are going to annihilate them is very real. In past debates with VP I have pointed to this perception and how I believe that whether it is based on facts or not, it must be respected. After all, if we say we are compatriots then we must have empathy for the fears of our compatriots regardless of their factual foundation.

Starting from this point of accepting and respecting this fear, the GCs must demostrate beyond doubt that there will be no danger to TCs. I have thought of several ways to do this, like having a TC as chief of police, a more numerous TC police than GC police so that TCs feel secure, but all this to happen within the context of Cypriots among ourselves, because the GC fear is of Turkey's intentions and plans for the island and as long as the Turkish army is here the fears of the two communities will always afect attempts to live normal lives.

Nikitas, because of the fact of this (unrealistic) fear that the TCs have, the GC side is and has always been willing to examine ways and accept solutions that would somehow reduce our country from that of a purely sovereign and independed nation, in order to alleviate it! Unfortunately, the only way the TCs want this (unrealistic) fear of theirs to be alleviated, is through the re-incorporation and /or maintenance of what we GCs maintain as a (very realist) fear in our minds, which is the unilateral intervention rights of Turkey!

Why the one is a realistic fear, and the other one is not, it can be argued, explained and proved very easily; however, the TCs seem not to be “willing” or are “allowed” to think or even hear about it, simply because it doesn't suit the interests of the "motherland!"

The brainwashing is truly too strong,dear Kifeas...And it goes back a long way,as you know well...It will need something of monumental scope to shift it...I know this is not acceptable to you,but something like complete and unilateral disarmament,and collection of all the weapons from the people,might do it...But if you said "who will protect us from Turkey?" I can only ask another question "Can all the armaments the NG has now protect Cyprus from Turkey????" If the realistic answer is "NO" then we might as well not have a NG...I know this is drastic but nothing short of this will make the TCs feel safe....

Bir, the problem is not whether Turkey has the capacity under any or most circumstances to intervene in Cyprus! It certainly does! The problem lies down to whether Turkey should be given the right to believe or assume that it legally has such a right to intervene -more so unilaterally! It is the later that we want to avoid, and not necessarily the former, which is as you have said is not so feasible anyway! If Turkey, besides her undisputable capacity to intervene military, also maintains the idea that this can be done more or less legally, then will certainly always feel the temptation to get involved in our internal affairs on the false premise that it has a stake in Cyprus, and who knows if at some stage in the future it will not also attempt to create the conditions which may possibly allow her to use what it believes to be her right to unilaterally intervene military!

Turkey, being such an unstable country itself, with so many conflicting interests among the various power centers in it, and with a complete lack of political and democratic culture as a nation and a society; cannot possibly be trusted to be given the right of a (unilateral) guarantor of Cyprus' constitutional order, more so with unilateral intervention rights! We GCs cannot possibly tolerate the idea that being an EU member state, and with a political and democratic culture evidently more advanced than that of Turkey, must have Turkey guarantee in such a way our internal and /or external affairs! Furthermore, the last time Turkey did make use of such a "right," in 1974, we are all witnesses of how "well" it carried out such a "duty!" Furthermore, it is not to the interest of the TC community either, for Turkey to maintain such an idea, because this will be an ongoing encouragement for Turkey to often become involved in their own community's and state's internal affairs, something which will also be influencing the smooth functioning of the central government, and also inevitably that of the GC state!

I say, sorry TCs, but please do find someone else, or another system or mechanism, to play such a role, but not Turkey -more so in a unilateral way, otherwise you do not mean business when you claim you want a solution and re-unification! I mean, don't you see what is now happening in the north, where you, TCs, cannot move even your single small finger unless Turkey gives its approval, only because she feels you are depending on her? Do you also want to drag the GCs into that very same situation in the future, instead of you seeking ways to shrug off the dynasty of Turkey's domination, and be able to act independently as one of the two communities in Cyprus? How do you expect the GCs to trust such a scenario, and accept to share power with your community in a re-united Cyprus?

Any suggestions Kifeas? And please, we do not want observers like the UN or EU. We want a mechanism in place that will take an active role in the event of a repeat of 63 or 74.

[BirKibrisli]

Bir said:
"
I know you guys don't really believe this fear is real,but it is.Very much so..."

Bir, I have always believed that the fear of TCs that GCs are going to annihilate them is very real. In past debates with VP I have pointed to this perception and how I believe that whether it is based on facts or not, it must be respected. After all, if we say we are compatriots then we must have empathy for the fears of our compatriots regardless of their factual foundation.

Starting from this point of accepting and respecting this fear, the GCs must demostrate beyond doubt that there will be no danger to TCs. I have thought of several ways to do this, like having a TC as chief of police, a more numerous TC police than GC police so that TCs feel secure, but all this to happen within the context of Cypriots among ourselves, because the GC fear is of Turkey's intentions and plans for the island and as long as the Turkish army is here the fears of the two communities will always afect attempts to live normal lives.

Nikitas, because of the fact of this (unrealistic) fear that the TCs have, the GC side is and has always been willing to examine ways and accept solutions that would somehow reduce our country from that of a purely sovereign and independed nation, in order to alleviate it! Unfortunately, the only way the TCs want this (unrealistic) fear of theirs to be alleviated, is through the re-incorporation and /or maintenance of what we GCs maintain as a (very realist) fear in our minds, which is the unilateral intervention rights of Turkey!

Why the one is a realistic fear, and the other one is not, it can be argued, explained and proved very easily; however, the TCs seem not to be “willing” or are “allowed” to think or even hear about it, simply because it doesn't suit the interests of the "motherland!"

The brainwashing is truly too strong,dear Kifeas...And it goes back a long way,as you know well...It will need something of monumental scope to shift it...I know this is not acceptable to you,but something like complete and unilateral disarmament,and collection of all the weapons from the people,might do it...But if you said "who will protect us from Turkey?" I can only ask another question "Can all the armaments the NG has now protect Cyprus from Turkey????" If the realistic answer is "NO" then we might as well not have a NG...I know this is drastic but nothing short of this will make the TCs feel safe....

Bir, the problem is not whether Turkey has the capacity under any or most circumstances to intervene in Cyprus! It certainly does! The problem lies down to whether Turkey should be given the right to believe or assume that it legally has such a right to intervene -more so unilaterally! It is the later that we want to avoid, and not necessarily the former, which is as you have said is not so feasible anyway! If Turkey, besides her undisputable capacity to intervene military, also maintains the idea that this can be done more or less legally, then will certainly always feel the temptation to get involved in our internal affairs on the false premise that it has a stake in Cyprus, and who knows if at some stage in the future it will not also attempt to create the conditions which may possibly allow her to use what it believes to be her right to unilaterally intervene military!

Turkey, being such an unstable country itself, with so many conflicting interests among the various power centers in it, and with a complete lack of political and democratic culture as a nation and a society; cannot possibly be trusted to be given the right of a (unilateral) guarantor of Cyprus' constitutional order, more so with unilateral intervention rights! We GCs cannot possibly tolerate the idea that being an EU member state, and with a political and democratic culture evidently more advanced than that of Turkey, must have Turkey guarantee in such a way our internal and /or external affairs! Furthermore, the last time Turkey did make use of such a "right," in 1974, we are all witnesses of how "well" it carried out such a "duty!" Furthermore, it is not to the interest of the TC community either, for Turkey to maintain such an idea, because this will be an ongoing encouragement for Turkey to often become involved in their own community's and state's internal affairs, something which will also be influencing the smooth functioning of the central government, and also inevitably that of the GC state!

I say, sorry TCs, but please do find someone else, or another system or mechanism, to play such a role, but not Turkey -more so in a unilateral way, otherwise you do not mean business when you claim you want a solution and re-unification! I mean, don't you see what is now happening in the north, where you, TCs, cannot move even your single small finger unless Turkey gives its approval, only because she feels you are depending on her? Do you also want to drag the GCs into that very same situation in the future, instead of you seeking ways to shrug off the dynasty of Turkey's domination, and be able to act independently as one of the two communities in Cyprus? How do you expect the GCs to trust such a scenario, and accept to share power with your community in a re-united Cyprus?

The problem is ,as always,lack of trust,Kifeas...The TCs don't trust the GCs and vice versa...My idea is a psychological one...Turkey would not attack,or be aggresive against,a small country without an army...I can bet my life on that...But of course I cannot expect the GCs to take my word for it...Our history is working to defeat us at every turn...If the ROC disarms,Turkey would have no justification to keep her troops in the North...But I know it is not a realistic scenario...I let myself dream sometimes...or I will go totally nuts...

[Kifeas]

Bir, you keep failing to understand what I am talking about! I suggest you read more carefully what I am talking about! The notion of a country having intervention rights into another country, and the notion that one country is the “guarantor” of another country’s constitutional order, and the notion that it has a saying in how the internal constitutional framework is shaped, instead of this being down to the free will of the political forces within a country, to determine; reduces on the one hand such a country from being a truly sovereign and independed one, or as we aspire Cyprus to become, and on the other hand, it (the notion of having intervention rights and a saying into another country) encourages the country that it feels is in a possession of such a right, through an agreement, to do interfere politically (and presumably otherwise) into the internal affairs of the other country! In other words, the notion of unilateral intervention rights places one independed and sovereign country under the direct or indirect suzerainty of another country! It encourages or allows the one country to get involved and influence or manipulate politically the other country, since there is an issue of dependency of the one from the other! More so, when the possessor of such a right is a country like Turkey, and please do not tell me that it is a mere lack of trust towards Turkey simply because I am a GC and have bad experiences! The whole world sees how Turkey is coping with her own internal paradoxes and instabilities, and how unable it is to guarantee its own citizens’ some political stability and promote or maintain the minimum of democratic culture to her own people! I am truly surprised you do not see what I am trying to say here!

[repulsewarrior]

Cyprus is an island. Its dwellers are Cypriots. You may think you know a lot about "Greeks" or "Turks", but to me and my village dwellers, the land, as its Stewards, is more important to us than your labels.

The word "cypriot" is merely a geographical term and is the same as calling a German or Frenchman "Eurpopean"

"Greek" Cypriot, or "Turkish" Cypriot are superficial terms which we use to describe our identity to each other. The island and its geographic context has little to do with its dwellers willingness to see themselves as persons. And in furthering your example, you don't have to be a "Turk" to be "Turkish", as in Germany, or in France.

[BirKibrisli]

Bir, you keep failing to understand what I am talking about! I suggest you read more carefully what I am talking about! The notion of a country having intervention rights into another country, and the notion that one country is the “guarantor” of another country’s constitutional order, and the notion that it has a saying in how the internal constitutional framework is shaped, instead of this being down to the free will of the political forces within a country, to determine; reduces on the one hand such a country from being a truly sovereign and independed one, or as we aspire Cyprus to become, and on the other hand, it (the notion of having intervention rights and a saying into another country) encourages the country that it feels is in a possession of such a right, through an agreement, to do interfere politically (and presumably otherwise) into the internal affairs of the other country! In other words, the notion of unilateral intervention rights places one independed and sovereign country under the direct or indirect suzerainty of another country! It encourages or allows the one country to get involved and influence or manipulate politically the other country, since there is an issue of dependency of the one from the other! More so, when the possessor of such a right is a country like Turkey, and please do not tell me that it is a mere lack of trust towards Turkey simply because I am a GC and have bad experiences! The whole world sees how Turkey is coping with her own internal paradoxes and instabilities, and how unable it is to guarantee its own citizens’ some political stability and promote or maintain the minimum of democratic culture to her own people! I am truly surprised you do not see what I am trying to say here!

I know what you are saying,Kifeas,but I am talking about something else...Another issue altogether..I am not talking about the politics of it..Or the legalities...I am talking about how on earth will we get the TCs to accept the withdrawal of the Turkish troops and not insist on unilateral intervension rights...One way that comes to my mind is to disarm the Cypriot Army after the solution,or as part of the solution,so that the TCs would not be scared to death of being annihilated...But it is okey..The world is not ready for such "foolish" ideas...It is better to talk about war,and the armed struggle for liberating our country...And our right to defend ourselves,even when we know we can't do such a thing realistically...

[Paphitis]

Bir, you keep failing to understand what I am talking about! I suggest you read more carefully what I am talking about! The notion of a country having intervention rights into another country, and the notion that one country is the “guarantor” of another country’s constitutional order, and the notion that it has a saying in how the internal constitutional framework is shaped, instead of this being down to the free will of the political forces within a country, to determine; reduces on the one hand such a country from being a truly sovereign and independed one, or as we aspire Cyprus to become, and on the other hand, it (the notion of having intervention rights and a saying into another country) encourages the country that it feels is in a possession of such a right, through an agreement, to do interfere politically (and presumably otherwise) into the internal affairs of the other country! In other words, the notion of unilateral intervention rights places one independed and sovereign country under the direct or indirect suzerainty of another country! It encourages or allows the one country to get involved and influence or manipulate politically the other country, since there is an issue of dependency of the one from the other! More so, when the possessor of such a right is a country like Turkey, and please do not tell me that it is a mere lack of trust towards Turkey simply because I am a GC and have bad experiences! The whole world sees how Turkey is coping with her own internal paradoxes and instabilities, and how unable it is to guarantee its own citizens’ some political stability and promote or maintain the minimum of democratic culture to her own people! I am truly surprised you do not see what I am trying to say here!

I know what you are saying,Kifeas,but I am talking about something else...Another issue altogether..I am not talking about the politics of it..Or the legalities...I am talking about how on earth will we get the TCs to accept the withdrawal of the Turkish troops and not insist on unilateral intervension rights...One way that comes to my mind is to disarm the Cypriot Army after the solution,or as part of the solution,so that the TCs would not be scared to death of being annihilated...But it is okey..The world is not ready for such "foolish" ideas...It is better to talk about war,and the armed struggle for liberating our country...And our right to defend ourselves,even when we know we can't do such a thing realistically...

Is Turkey ready to forego any Treaty of Guarantee or intervention rights? I doubt it. So do not expect us to disarm our army and leave ourselves vulnerable and at Turkey's mercy.

Personally, I have come to terms with the steady march towards these negotiations collapsing before the end of the year.

[Kifeas]

Bir, you keep failing to understand what I am talking about! I suggest you read more carefully what I am talking about! The notion of a country having intervention rights into another country, and the notion that one country is the “guarantor” of another country’s constitutional order, and the notion that it has a saying in how the internal constitutional framework is shaped, instead of this being down to the free will of the political forces within a country, to determine; reduces on the one hand such a country from being a truly sovereign and independed one, or as we aspire Cyprus to become, and on the other hand, it (the notion of having intervention rights and a saying into another country) encourages the country that it feels is in a possession of such a right, through an agreement, to do interfere politically (and presumably otherwise) into the internal affairs of the other country! In other words, the notion of unilateral intervention rights places one independed and sovereign country under the direct or indirect suzerainty of another country! It encourages or allows the one country to get involved and influence or manipulate politically the other country, since there is an issue of dependency of the one from the other! More so, when the possessor of such a right is a country like Turkey, and please do not tell me that it is a mere lack of trust towards Turkey simply because I am a GC and have bad experiences! The whole world sees how Turkey is coping with her own internal paradoxes and instabilities, and how unable it is to guarantee its own citizens’ some political stability and promote or maintain the minimum of democratic culture to her own people! I am truly surprised you do not see what I am trying to say here!

I know what you are saying,Kifeas,but I am talking about something else...Another issue altogether..I am not talking about the politics of it..Or the legalities...I am talking about how on earth will we get the TCs to accept the withdrawal of the Turkish troops and not insist on unilateral intervension rights...One way that comes to my mind is to disarm the Cypriot Army after the solution,or as part of the solution,so that the TCs would not be scared to death of being annihilated...But it is okey..The world is not ready for such "foolish" ideas...It is better to talk about war,and the armed struggle for liberating our country...And our right to defend ourselves,even when we know we can't do such a thing realistically...

Bir, if what you are saying is that the GC army, as a condition to the TCs not insisting on Turkey's unilateral interventions rights, should also be dissolved, and Cyprus should be demilitarized, I have to tell you that this has already being a standard proposal of the GC side, as part of the solution, for a long time now! However, the TC side and Turkey, despite this GC proposal which you now also refer to, continue to insist that Turkey's unilateral intervention rights are non-negotiable, and must continue after any solution, no matter what! I am surprised you are not aware of these proposals of the GC side, and the fact that Turkey and the TC side ignore them and continue to insist on protecting Turkey's "rights in Cyprus," as they refer to them so cynically!

[repulsewarrior]

...it is why supramilitarising the island may suit us as it would suit the interlocutors, including Turkey.

The Cypriot armed force would integrate into these larger spheres, allowing for its utility in protecting the State, while it acts as well in concert with others as an ally against larger threats.

[Get Real!]

I am talking about how on earth will we get the TCs to accept the withdrawal of the Turkish troops and not insist on unilateral intervension rights...

This is based on your fallacy that Turkish Cypriots control the presence of the Turkish military on Cyprus when in actual fact they control absolutely NOTHING. Turkey is simply using the Turkish Cypriots as an excuse to remain on the island and even if the Turkish Cypriots were to ask her to leave she would find another excuse to get her way.

One way that comes to my mind is to disarm the Cypriot Army after the solution,or as part of the solution,so that the TCs would not be scared to death of being annihilated...

And this is the part where you unveil your mask for all to see! Any country unfortunate enough to be a neighbor of trigger-happy Turkey will ALWAYS need as strong a military as possible… I dare say 10% or even 15% for defense. The BEST guarantee for Turkish Cypriots not to be “annihilated” is to stop their treasonous ways and start acting like bloody Cypriots for once, but you fail to make mention of that “little” problem your community has and pass the buck to the Greek Cypriots so that they may always remain defenseless and vulnerable to accommodate your community’s STUPIDITIES!

But it is okey..The world is not ready for such "foolish" ideas...It is better to talk about war,and the armed struggle for liberating our country...And our right to defend ourselves,even when we know we can't do such a thing realistically...

I’ll take my chances thank you, even at the risk of paying the ultimate price, but I’ll certainly not surrender to the blackmails of an UNIVITED minority constantly swimming upstream and parlaying with Turkey!

If you REALLY want to help your people start teaching some sense into their screwed up heads and quit asking the Greek Cypriots to forever accommodate those irresponsible fools! It's HIGH TIME your people starting facing up to their responsibilities and cut the bullshit, and if they do not listen then let them reap what they sow.

I know for a fact that my people are smart enough to be around for centuries if not millenniums to come but I don’t know about yours.