Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz]

Could someone explain to me what this "£40,000 housing benefit they were entitled to as refugees." is all about please?

Is this a one off payment to GC that lost property in 74? Is it an anual payment? Does it have to be returned if they regain their properties? Does it pass to the children of those that lost property in 74?

Any info on this would be most welcome. Thanks

[cannedmoose]

Erol, all I know about this is that refugees and their children are entitled to a grant from the Cypriot government to assist them in buying a property. My brother-in-law comes from a refugee family, and although born in 1976 (so, IMHO, not being a refugee per se), recently bought a new flat and was given about £8,000 by the government to help do so. I believe it's a one-off entitlement and I also believe that it's only for the refugee generation and their children's generation, I don't think it's going to carry on beyond that.

[Agios Amvrosios]

I understand that the grant to refugees is about 7K cypriot pounds and it is a one off payment. Refugees have the alternative of living in purpose built slums rent free.

If a refugee elects to live in the purpose built refugee slum they usually get a place in the queue earlier but the process still takes months. The refugees can only use these premises as their primary place of residence.
They cannot lease or sublease these properties. Refugees lose their entitlement to occupy their housing units if they move out for extended periods of time.

If they elect to apply for a grant it can take over 6 months before they see any money.

Just picking up on what Turk Cyp said:

Majority of GCs simply do not care about the continuation of “status quo”. As they were never refugees and they will not be gaining anything from the solution after all.

The percentage of GC refugees and decendants of refugees is roughly one third of the total population of Cyprus including TC Cypriots. That is to say that these people amount to 40% of the total number of GCs.

I am a decendant of refugees from Kyrenia and I look forward to a solution- but why would I support a solution legalizing the confiscation of my parents' and grandparents' homes such as Annnan 5?

[erolz]

I understand that the grant to refugees is about 7K cypriot pounds and it is a one off payment. Refugees have the alternative of living in purpose built slums rent free.

So where does the figure of £40,000 in the article come from? If they take a government provided home (slum) do they forfit the entitlement to this grant then?

If a refugee elects to live in the purpose built refugee slum they usually get a place in the queue earlier but the process still takes months.

The 'queue' for what?

I am a decendant of refugees from Kyrenia and I look forward to a solution- but why would I support a solution legalizing the confiscation of my parents' and grandparents' homes such as Annnan 5?

You would only accept full return of your properties and not any form of compensation for their loss - regardless of how 'generous' this compensation might be? If your property has been devloped since 74 such that it's value has increased substantialy in that period would you compensate those that have spent money increasing it's value if it were to be returned to you, or just expect to accrue this finacial gain anyway? What ultimately do you want more, in a hypothetical senario that the two are mutualy exclusive, return of your property or renuification of Cyprus into a single (federated or not) state?

PS I am not trying to be offensive and if the above questions appear so I appologise in advance. I am curious and wish to undestand your position better - that is the spitit in which I ask the above.

[Kifeas]

Could someone explain to me what this "£40,000 housing benefit they were entitled to as refugees." is all about please?

Is this a one off payment to GC that lost property in 74? Is it an anual payment? Does it have to be returned if they regain their properties? Does it pass to the children of those that lost property in 74?

Any info on this would be most welcome. Thanks

Erol, please take my word. I hope I am in a position to ask this from you. This man (Lucas Charalambous) talks rubbish. Just ignore whatever he says and you will be way better off as far as formulating an opinion on GCs and their government is concerned.

Now the £40,000 housing benefit. The only possibility this GC refugee that he (L.Ch) is talking about, is to get such an amount as a government grant, is only if he has 5 children which are due to get married any time in the near future. In this case, each child is entitled to £8,000 such grant (5 times 8,000 = 40,000,) provided that each child gets married to a person that his/her family side has no adequate financial resources to support the couple in their housing needs. In other words, if the other person who gets married to a refugee is not a refuge him/her self and comes from a poor family that has an annual income of less than Cy£9,000 per year and has not already saved money or bought a house or a plot for their child’s marriage (housing) needs.

Now tell me please:
a.) What practical significance does it have to the “No” of GC refugees if the average number of children per refugee family is only two (2) and perhaps the number of refugees families that have five (5) children is only half percent (0.5%) and perhaps only half of this insignificant number of 5-children families has children within marriage ages within the next 10 years, especially if we take into consideration the above constrains in granting this amount?
b.) What practical significance does the £8,000 have to a newly married couple and their family if the average price of the cheapest two bedroom apartment in the south is al least £65,000? This money will not be enough to pay the interest of a 15-20 year housing mortgage.

Tell me then, is this a serious incentive for a refugee not to want a solution that will give him his property in the north? The only possibility is if he didn’t have any property at all or a very insignificant one and consequently has nothing to gain from a solution but only to loose. However, GC refugees of such a pre-1974 condition (with none or little property in the north) amount to only around 10% of the total of all refuges.

Furthermore, this housing aid grant has now been extended to non refugees (to all GCs) that are of a very low financial ability. Therefore, even in the case that a refugee doesn’t have any property in the north to gain from it’s return and he is of a low financial will still be entitled to this aid, even after a solution, because this has already been extended to all GCs.

This grant is a one shot deal, provided someone gets married. He is not obliged to return this money after a solution but he/she cannot use the property been bought using this grant for any commercial purposes, but only for his/her family housing needs.

[erolz]

Erol, please take my word. I hope I am in a position to ask this from you. This man (Lucas Charalambous) talks rubbish. Just ignore whatever he says and you will be way better off as far as formulating an opinion on GCs and their government is concerned.

Presumably he vocies his opinion, be it rubbish or not? I do not take what a single GC says and extrapolate it out to equate the whole GC community, be that person Banniot, Piratis or the gentleman mentioned above, as I hope you do not do with my words as a TC or Insans or Senar Levants words?

Now tell me please:
a.) What practical significance does it have to the “No” of GC refugees if the average number of children per refugee family is only two (2) and perhaps the number of refugees families that have five (5) children is only half percent (0.5%) and perhaps only half of this insignificant number of 5-children families has children within marriage ages within the next 10 years, especially if we take into consideration the above constrains in granting this amount?

I am trying to come to a personal opinion as to if such grants affect some GC desires for a solution or not. In order to do that I need to understand the grants system and how it works - hence my questions. I thank you (and others) for the info they have provided about these grants, which I was unaware of previously.

b.) What practical significance does the £8,000 have to a newly married couple and their family if the average price of the cheapest two bedroom apartment in the south is al least £65,000? This money will not be enough to pay the interest of a 15-20 year housing mortgage.

Presumably the grant represts a pratical significance of exactlky £8,000 and no more and no less. I know from past expereince of living in Londond and struggling there to get on the property ladder there in the past that any help, no matter how samll comparative to the overall cost is most welcome.

Tell me then, is this a serious incentive for a refugee not to want a solution that will give him his property in the north?

It would seem to me from what I have understood so far that there is potential for a small set of refugees to fall into such a category that the return of their property would amount to less finaical gain vs no return and full recipt of grants available. I accept that these are probably a very very small minority of all GC who lost properrty in 74.

[Agios Amvrosios]

Erolz:

So where does the figure of £40,000 in the article come from? If they take a government provided home (slum) do they forfit the entitlement to this grant then?

I have never heard of anybody getting 40K, my mum's brother who has 4 children under 18 recently returned to live in Cyprus and after 7 months and a little "mesa" he was given a grant of 7K.

Erolz:

The 'queue' for what?

Many Refugees have still not been given the grant especially refugees who moved abroad after '74. The application process involves 2000 steps and takes many months. The beaurocracy involved is ridiculous many people forfeit their rights in frustration.

Erolz:

If your property has been devloped since 74 such that it's value has increased substantialy in that period would you compensate those that have spent money increasing it's value if it were to be returned to you, or just expect to accrue this finacial gain anyway

I do not know about other cases just the case of my grandparents and parents- but their homes have not been renovated and infact need some paintworks. The gardens have also been left unkept. I would pay for restoration work myself but "improvements" can be a grey area as some alleged improvements look substandard. On the other hand some new buildings which I assume are built on Greek Cypriot owned land look sound. Especially the ones built by or for foreigners.

Erolz:

You would only accept full return of your properties and not any form of compensation for their loss

"Compensation" was not made available when my parents and grandparents needed it -and- what about compensation for 30 years of lost use and enjoyment of property or the right to rent our homes.
What compensation is offered for "loss of ethnic identity as Greek Cypriots of Kyrenia"?Thats the most difficult head of damage to quantify.

The most appropriate remedy is therefore restitution not monetary compensation.

[Kifeas]

So where does the figure of £40,000 in the article come from? If they take a government provided home (slum) do they forfit the entitlement to this grant then?

Yes if they get government provided home in a refugee settlement building or an ex-TC house, they are not entitled to any housing grant. However you have to take into consideration that no new refugee settlements are being built any longer, nor any ex-TC houses have been left empty, unless an old couple dies and thus such a house will become available. Therefore almost 90% of all newly married refugee descendants are benefited form the housing grant schemes.

You would only accept full return of your properties and not any form of compensation for their loss - regardless of how 'generous' this compensation might be? If your property has been devloped since 74 such that it's value has increased substantialy in that period would you compensate those that have spent money increasing it's value if it were to be returned to you, or just expect to accrue this finacial gain anyway? What ultimately do you want more, in a hypothetical senario that the two are mutualy exclusive, return of your property or renuification of Cyprus into a single (federated or not) state?

Erol, for the sake of a solution and re-unification, GC refugees can be flexible for all those cases of TCs who are refugees themselves from the south and have adequate property in the south in order to immediately exchange or adequate financial ability to cover the difference in value. We do not wish to be, and we are not, unreasonable to the real needs and consequent facts of TC refugees that emerged during the past 30 years.

However, this was not the case in the Anan plan and things have become even more unfair for GC property owners after this totally uncontrolled and massive investment on GC properties in the north, should the A-plan provisions remain in place as they were.

Certainly no GC is going to accept a total strip off his property rights in the north and even more importantly if in the place of fair and adequate compensation he will instead get absolutely disputable in value “papers” that can only “cash out” after 30 years, should and if the money is found (which will not be found,) while at the same time those (TCs. Settlers, foreigners, etc.) that will “gain” the right to keep these properties, will become the “owners” of prime land of enormous value. Unfortunately this would have been the case, with very precise mathematic calculations.

And one last thing here. Taking into consideration the facts of pre-1974 property ownership, the territorial adjustments and the provisions and formulas that were meant to be applied with Anan plan 5, there will be a gab (amount due to be paid to GC property owners from TC and other “legalised” property holders,) of about 12-15 billion Euros. Most likely this gab is now on the high end, after the massive exploitation of GC properties that currently takes place in the north.

This gab doesn’t involve compensation for the loss any use or loss of revenues due to the 31 years of non-access to the properties. Just to avoid any misunderstandings.

The following two links direct you to a report mailed to Members of The European Parliament (MEPs) and published in Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Network., No 44. , Weekly News Bulletin (12-19.11.2004) and was written by Serdar Atai a TC member of Association for Rights And Freedoms. It discusses recent abuses regarding properties in north Cyprus


http://www.dzforum.de/deutscheVersion/Standpunkte/serdar_atai_march2005.htm

or

http://www.euromedrights.net/english/Download/Rights%20and%20Freedoms%20Association.doc

[erolz]

Erol, for the sake of a solution and re-unification, GC refugees can be flexible for all those cases of TCs who are refugees themselves from the south and have adequate property in the south in order to immediately exchange or adequate financial ability to cover the difference in value. We do not wish to be, and we are not, unreasonable to the real needs and consequent facts of TC refugees that emerged during the past 30 years.

Though I may not have made it clear my question was to AA specificaly and an attmept to understand his personal position. I was trying to understand if his position is that no amount of money is acceptable for his families loss and the only solution that would be acceptable to him is return of property and nothing else, or not. I am not taking about the annan plan here. I am talking about in prinicpal and about AA himself not the GC community in general. Is there no other solution other than return of his property that he considers could be acceptable or not - that is what I am trying to understand here.

[-mikkie2-]

The money that is given by the RoC is for refugees and their children to be able to set up home. My sister married a refugee and they got 8K from the government when they bought their house. This is peanuts when compared to the price of property in Cyprus.

Does this in any way compensate them for what they lost? Well, no! The ancestral homes of people are worth more than just its physical value.

I actually find it offensive the suggestion that the money that the RoC gives to refugees buying their 1st home is permanent and final compensation for what they lost in the north.

Get it through your thick sculls - you cannot to possess, develop and build on GC land in the north and hope to get away with it without paying a price.