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And so Israel is 60

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Postby Get Real! » Thu May 15, 2008 11:20 pm

Talisker wrote:...but you state: There are no issues.............. :?

And the last time I checked I recall around 2,000 predominantly Palestinian and Lebanese detainees, locked up in a trial-less torture prison akin to Guantanamo... I forget the name and location.
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Postby purdey » Thu May 15, 2008 11:23 pm

Ok you don't like Israel. Nothing new in that, not many people do. Hey ho we couldn't care less.
Goodnight guys.
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Postby Talisker » Thu May 15, 2008 11:26 pm

purdey wrote:Suicide bombers, rockets, hijackings the list goes on. Stop them all peace, simple...

Who said it is simple? But isn't Israel further than ever from peace with its neighbours? If that day ever arrives that will truly be worth celebrating.........
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Postby Talisker » Thu May 15, 2008 11:32 pm

purdey wrote:Ok you don't like Israel. Nothing new in that, not many people do. Hey ho we couldn't care less.
Goodnight guys.

Goodnight Purdey. For your information Israel is probably the most exciting, interesting, scary, in-your-face country I have ever visited. I don't mind you defending 'your' country, but the 'issues' we all know exist have to be acknowledged, confronted and overcome.............
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Postby Get Real! » Thu May 15, 2008 11:57 pm

purdey wrote:Ok you don't like Israel. Nothing new in that, not many people do. Hey ho we couldn't care less.
Goodnight guys.

Unconditional love is blinding... goodnight.
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Postby Talisker » Fri May 16, 2008 8:09 am

Further detail on deaths during the two intifadas from:
http://www.israelipalestinianprocon.org/deaths.html

Sixty years ago horrible events were occurring. From:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php? ... a&aid=8895

The Palestinian Holocaust
Alnakba.org recounts the toll. It lists the destroyed villages in 14 Palestinian Districts, including Gaza, Jerusalem, Haifa, Jaffa, Nazareth and Hebron. One was Deir Yassin in the Jerusalem District. On April 9, 1948, it was the site of an infamous Nakba massacre. Israeli soldiers entered the village, machine-gunned houses randomly and killed many inside them. The remaining villagers were assembled and murdered in cold blood. Included were children, infants, the elderly and women who were first raped. The total number killed is uncertain but best estimates place it between 93 and 120. In addition, dozens more were killed in the fighting that ensued, and many other villages met the same fate in the systematic cleansing plan - to seize as much Palestinian land as possible leaving the fewest number of Arabs on it.

In December 1947, Jews in Palestine numbered 600,000 compared to 1.3 million Palestinians. Ben-Gurion ordered them removed with commands like: "Every attack has to end with occupation, destruction and expulsion." He meant depopulation; obliteration; homes blown up, burned or bulldozed; their inhabitants inside killed; shooting anything that moved, especially fighting-age men and boys who might pose a combat or resistance threat; and leaving behind rubble, a forgotten landscape and a proud history erased.

The Lifta ruins can be seen from Jerusalem. All that was left in Dayr Aban were piles of rubble, collapsed roofs and part of some standing walls. Only two houses remained in Barqa. One is deserted. The other is a warehouse. Jura became the city of Ashqelon. Its Jewish population is now about 117,000. The only Arab remains in al-Faluja are the village mosque foundations and fragments of walls. The Israeli town of Qiryat Gat now stands on land between al-Faluja and Iraq al-Manshiyya and on al-Faluja land as well. Hundreds of other Arab villages have similar stories. They were erased and replaced by Jewish-only development.

An eye witness to the Deir Yassin massacre recounts the horror:

"I was (there) when the Jews attacked....(They) closed on the village amid exchanges of fire with us. Once they entered the village, fighting became very heavy in the eastern side and later it spread to other parts, to the quarry, to the village center until it reached the western edge....The Jews used all sorts of automatic weapons, tanks, missiles, cannons. They enter(ed) houses and kill(ed) women and children indiscriminately. The (village) youths....fought bravely.

We had no aid or support....They took about 40 prisoners....After the battle was over, they took them to the quarry where they shot them dead and threw their bodies in the quarry....they took (other) prisoners and killed them....they killed the youths."

Other accounts spoke of shootings, bombs exploding and a mother being killed with her husband, son and brother. A nurse was shot dead as well as the daughter of a friend and her baby. "Whomever tried to run away was shot dead." It was cold-blooded murder.

After the battle, "the Jews took elderly men and women and youths, including four of my cousins and a nephew. They took them all. Women who had on them gold and money, were stripped of their gold. After the Jews removed their dead and wounded, they took the men to the quarry and sprayed them all with bullets." One woman watched her son shot to death. "They later poured kerosene on his body and" burned it.

The men were fighting. "Eyewitnesses were only women. The elderly men were (used) to remove the dead, Arabs and Jews." The Arab ones "were thrown in a well in the village center." It all happened five weeks before the State of Israel was founded. Arabs died and were displaced to make Plan D a success. It worked because western powers supported it, and Arab neighbors were indifferent. Their intervention held off until May 15, five and a half months after the UN partition. When it began, it was with an inferior force that was no match against Israeli superiority, despite popular myth to the contrary.

It recounts how an outnumbered and outgunned Jewish force prevailed against overwhelming odds. Pure rubbish. In fact, the Jews held a clear advantage. As long as the British stayed out (and they did), the outcome was never in doubt. Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq held off intervening as long as possible, then reluctantly stepped in with token forces. It was too little, too late, and, for its part, Jordan (with its potent military) stayed out entirely in return for most of the West Bank as a payoff.

Intervening Arab forces performed poorly. They overstretched their supply lines, ran out of ammunition, mostly used antiquated weapons, and had no effective command and control. It was a testimony to their lack of commitment, not their ability to fight had they wished to.

Jews, in contrast, were supplied effective armaments from Soviet Russia and other Eastern bloc countries. They easily outgunned the Arabs and outclassed and outnumbered them as well. The outcome was never in doubt that a new Jewish State would emerge. On May 14, 1948, Israel signed separate armistice agreements with its four major warring adversaries. It gave Israel 78% of British Mandatory Palestine, 40% above its UN allotment. Palestinians got the other 22% comprising the West Bank and Gaza.

On December 11, 1948, a historic General Assembly resolution passed - UN Resolution 194 consisting of 15 articles. Four were most important. Article 7 protected and provided free access to the Holy Places. Article 8 demilitarized Jerusalem and placed it under UN control. Article 9 called for free access to Jerusalem, and Article 11 is most remembered for granting Palestinian refugees the right of return or to be compensated for their loss if they chose not to. From 1948, to the present, Israel defied the UN mandate and got away with it. It was because of western support and Arab indifference. As a result, it was able to terrorize remaining Arabs inside Israel, and set in motion the eventual Gaza and West Bank occupation.
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Postby purdey » Fri May 16, 2008 8:40 am

Yes there is no denying there have been attrocities commited by both sides. I beleive there is a film just been released by an Israeli who is identifying another mass killing that took place at the hands of Israeli soldiers.
I am interested to note you have visited Israel, and also note you found it scary, why ?
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Postby miltiades » Fri May 16, 2008 9:11 am

Another proof that the more religious a nation is the more likely that atrocities will be committed.
Both the Jews and the Arabs claim and appear to be God fearing people !!
Another lesson is that these people have chosen war instead of political negotiations .
How many peace plans for the M.East have been drawn up only to be torn to shreds by the extremists , all with their mighty God on their side !!!
Israel has to accept that the Palestinians do have a legitimate grievance that has to be addressed , and the Arabs must also accept that the state of Israel has a right to exist . A Palestinian state exists split in two , does anyone think that if all of Israel was taken by the Palestinians there will be peace in the region. No way , the splits will multiply and violence will be just the same only Palestinian against Palestinian , each waring fraction of course with God on their side . Abolish God in the M.East !!!!

I'm afraid that the turmoil in that region will intensify , Iran is determined to proceed with her efforts to develop nuclear capabilities , and Israel is equally determined not to remain idle bearing in mind the threads made by Iran that Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth.
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Postby purdey » Fri May 16, 2008 9:28 am

Not quiet true Miltiades, the vast majority of Arabs and Jews have chosen a peaceful path. Unfortunately both sides are riddled with extremeists whose sole purpose is to scupper all plans for a peaceful end to the killing.
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Postby Talisker » Fri May 16, 2008 9:29 am

purdey wrote:Yes there is no denying there have been attrocities commited by both sides. I beleive there is a film just been released by an Israeli who is identifying another mass killing that took place at the hands of Israeli soldiers.
I am interested to note you have visited Israel, and also note you found it scary, why ?

I went to a conference in Jerusalem in 1988 (can't believe it really was 20 years ago!) but toured around for two days beforehand. If memory serves me, from Tel Aviv went to Caeseria (Roman aqueduct on coast), then up the coast to Haifa, went to Nazareth, then the Golan Heights (we were told Damascus was 12 km away over the hill - correct?), then spent a night on a kibbutz. Next day, boat trip across the Sea of Galilee, then down the River Jordan to Jericho (at dusk could see the flickering fires in caves occupied by Greek monks high on the cliffs) and on to Jerusalem for the conference. Jerusalem is fascinating! The Wailing Wall, the Al-Aqsa mosque directly above, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the markets, Dead Sea Scrolls, Holocaust memorial, etc. I nipped off from the conference one afternoon and caught a bus from the main bus station in Jerusalem down to the Dead Sea. Remember seeing Bedouin tents in the desert just outside Jerusalem. Fun floating in the Dead Sea!

Scariness?
Seemed like all teenagers in the bus station were carrying machine guns.

Also remember torrents of Arabs coming out of the mosque on the Friday after prayers and seeing confrontations with Israeli soldiers.

Israeli police with blood-stained truncheons.

Losing my wallet during a bartering session for hand carved olivewood chess set with Palestinian traders, then it magically reappearing when I called out to my colleague to get the police.

The 'scariness' clincher was at Tel Aviv airport. We all had to answer questions put to us by security people as to why we had been in Israel, where we had been, what we had done, etc. If they didn't like the answers then they passed you on to another to check out the answers. One girl in our party missed her flight because of this. While we were queuing for questioning a security guard searching a litter bin next to me shouted out 'Everyone move, there is a bomb in this bin'. I expected people to charge to the other end of the terminal building, but most just shuffled away a few metres, and then he called us back saying it was a false alarm - it wasn't a bomb after all! So, I was pretty relieved to fly out, especially as the airport bus taking us to the plane had some religious nutter on it shouting about the end of the world being nigh!

So yes, there were a few scary moments. Overall, when I was there the place just seemed 'on edge', really ready to blow. I couldn't imagine relaxing in Israel! But I also remember it as being one of the most vibrant and exciting places I've ever visited. So much history, culture, humanity packed into a tiny area. To see the different cultures trying to coexist against so many odds was amazing. I wish a fair and permanent solution (without annihilation for any of the different peoples) could be found.
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