Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Piratis

VP, Cyprus being part of the Greek state was what the great majority of the Cypriot people wanted. How could it be fine for Cyprus to be under Turks or British against the will of Cypriots, but not fine for Cyprus to be part of a free Greek state which is what the great majority of Cypriots themselves wanted?

According to the resolution for decolonization "integration into an independent State" is one of the three legitimate options for the people of a territory to democratically choose.
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

We have been slaves under foreign rule and the only thing we asked for was for our rights and absolutely nothing more.

What you have the right to do was to vote against enosis if you didn't like it. Then we would see how many Cypriots voted in favor and how many against, and a decision would be taken peacefully and democratically. Just because you didn't agree it doesn't give you the right to start killing people in order to impose your own will by force.

So the rule of the Turks and Brits you oppose yet you have no problem putting us in the same position of being ruled by Greece, aren't you being the worst type of hypocrite there is with no regard for the TCs even after agreeing to an independent state. What you expected us to do was vote for nothing as the impact of our votes would not change a thing as 99.9% of GCs wanted to gift Cyprus to Greece. Does everyone have the right to fight back in order to survive, we saw the risk and fought back full stop.

Union with Greece was how Cypriots wanted to exercise their right for self-determination after being ruled by British, Turks and many other foreigners for so long. It did not involve any harm against the human or other rights of TCs, neither we ever demanded that TCs should be harmed in any way. We simply fought against the colonialists for our freedom.

Well forgive us for want to live and not wanting to become part of Greece, feeling threatened by a nation that had dealt with Crete and Corfu, the feeling was one of being sentenced to death which any sane man would fight with everything they have to survive.

On the other hand, your reaction, which was obviously planed and coordinated by London and Ankara, was that of aggression against us along with criminal demands of "taksim", that we should be ethnically cleansed from half of our island (where we are the overwhelming majority for 1000s of years) so you can have some artificially created Turkish state on it.

So how can you tell me that your crimes against us can be justified because of our 100% legitimate straggle for our rights????

As I said many times in this forum, and as the article says also, what happened in Cyprus is exclusively due to the interests of foreign powers, particularly the UK and Turkey.

The British did not want to loose Cyprus because they considered it the most important overseas base they had, so in order to balance out and defeat the liberation struggle of Cypriots they involved Turkey in the Cyprus affairs, and they turned TCs against the rest of Cypriots by promising to them huge gains on our loss if they help them to defeat our revolution.

If the British did not have such interests in Cyprus, then Cyprus could be decolonized in a peaceful and democratic way, by means of a referendum where Cypriots would choose one of the legitimate options for decolonization.

You played the wrong card and disregarded a large part of your population and now we all pay the price, faced with being given as a sacrificial people to Greece we could not sit around accept the majorities will waiting for our fate we had to fight back with goals of our own which don't forget allowed you to survive and prosper on this island, you saw fit for us to given to Greece where we would be left to their mercy and possible annihilation.

VP, so based on what you imagined that would supposedly happen to you if Cypriots where allowed to democratically and peacefully decide the destiny of their own island, you saw fit to start a conflict against Greek Cypriots and demand that they should be exterminated from half of their country!!

The events in some other island you are talking about where in a different period where the Turks where committing much worst atrocities against the Greeks of Asia Minor, and have nothing to do with the 50s and Cyprus.

In fact Rhodos which was united with Greece in 1948 also has a Turkish minority on it and absolutely no harm happened to it.

Also you are missing the huge differences between Cyprus being part of the Ottoman or British empires, and Cyprus being part of Greece.

1) The vast majority of Cypriots are Greek, therefore Cyprus being part of the Greek state was only natural.

2) The vast majority of Cypriots wanted to be part of the Greek state. So being part of the Greek state would be a democratic choice of Cypriots, as opposed to be part of the British or Ottoman empires which was something imposed on Cypriots by brute force and against our will.

3) We (and you) would be equal Greek citizens. Not colonial subjects as we were under the Ottoman and British empires.

[Kifeas]

So the rule of the Turks and Brits you oppose yet you have no problem putting us in the same position of being ruled by Greece, aren't you being the worst type of hypocrite there is with no regard for the TCs even after agreeing to an independent state. What you expected us to do was vote for nothing as the impact of our votes would not change a thing as 99.9% of GCs wanted to gift Cyprus to Greece. Does everyone have the right to fight back in order to survive, we saw the risk and fought back full stop.

VP, under a scenario in which Cyprus would have been united with Greece, you had every right to be concerned and every right to demand that, besides your human and political rights as equal citizens of the country (Greece,) all of your cultural rights should also have to be respected. You even had the right to demand that you should have retained a degree of communal autonomy, in all the areas around Cyprus in which you traditionally or historically formed the overwhelming majority of the inhabitants. All these were and are legitimate concerns and rights. What was not legitimate was your idea that Cyprus should be partitioned. The reason why this was not legitimate is because there was not one single, unified and substantially sizable separate part of Cyprus in which you have been forming the overwhelming majority of the inhabitants, and therefore, partition would have entailed the violation of fundamental human rights of a large portion of Cypriot people, by violently uprooting them from their homes, communities (villages,) properties and historical roots, and replanting them in other parts of Cyprus.

In other words, the GC plea for “enosis” (union with Greece) was legitimate because they were historically the overwhelming majority of inhabitants all around Cyprus, long before the appearance of TCs in it; whereas at the same time it (enosis) did not foresee or entail the violation of the members of the TC community’s human, cultural and political rights. TCs would still enjoy their human (home and property) rights, would still enjoy their political rights as individual citizens of a larger entity, and would still enjoy their cultural (language, identity, religion, etc) rights in all the varius areas around Cyprus (TC villages and quarters of towns, etc) in which they were forming the regional majority. The TC plea for partition was not legitimate, for the reasons I have explained above, i.e. it entailed the uprooting, expulsion and violation of people’s fundamental human rights (more or less what happened in 1974,) which are the most important in terms of priority over the rest of rights!

In other words, any political conviction or plea (enosis and /or partition, etc,) is only legitimized to the extent it does not foresee or entail the violation of people’s rights, especially the violation of their fundamental human rights, more so when this is meant to be carried out on a massive scale!

[Viewpoint]

So the rule of the Turks and Brits you oppose yet you have no problem putting us in the same position of being ruled by Greece, aren't you being the worst type of hypocrite there is with no regard for the TCs even after agreeing to an independent state. What you expected us to do was vote for nothing as the impact of our votes would not change a thing as 99.9% of GCs wanted to gift Cyprus to Greece. Does everyone have the right to fight back in order to survive, we saw the risk and fought back full stop.

VP, under a scenario in which Cyprus would have been united with Greece, you had every right to be concerned and every right to demand that, besides your human and political rights as equal citizens of the country (Greece,) all of your cultural rights should also have to be respected. You even had the right to demand that you should have retained a degree of communal autonomy, in all the areas around Cyprus in which you traditionally or historically formed the overwhelming majority of the inhabitants. All these were and are legitimate concerns and rights. What was not legitimate was your idea that Cyprus should be partitioned. The reason why this was not legitimate is because there was not one single, unified and substantially sizable separate part of Cyprus in which you have been forming the overwhelming majority of the inhabitants, and therefore, partition would have entailed the violation of fundamental human rights of a large portion of Cypriot people, by violently uprooting them from their homes, communities (villages,) properties and historical roots, and replanting them in other parts of Cyprus.

In other words, the GC plea for “enosis” (union with Greece) was legitimate because they were historically the overwhelming majority of inhabitants all around Cyprus, long before the appearance of TCs in it; whereas at the same time it (enosis) did not foresee or entail the violation of the members of the TC community’s human, cultural and political rights. TCs would still enjoy their human (home and property) rights, would still enjoy their political rights as individual citizens of a larger entity, and would still enjoy their cultural (language, identity, religion, etc) rights in all the varius areas around Cyprus (TC villages and quarters of towns, etc) in which they were forming the regional majority. The TC plea for partition was not legitimate, for the reasons I have explained above, i.e. it entailed the uprooting, expulsion and violation of people’s fundamental human rights (more or less what happened in 1974,) which are the most important in terms of priority over the rest of rights!

In other words, any political conviction or plea (enosis and /or partition, etc,) is only legitimized to the extent it does not foresee or entail the violation of people’s rights, especially the violation of their fundamental human rights, more so when this is meant to be carried out on a massive scale!

So bascially what you are saying is trust the Greeks to respect our human rights yet not allow us to share an independent Cyprus via 2 state solution. Well sorry but I do not want to become part of a Greek society/country just like you are repulsed by and do not even want to live under a TC administration, its the same for us. The Cyprus issue is a prime example of why the majority is not always right, you can thank us for having a GC state run by GCs recognized by the world.

[Piratis]

So the rule of the Turks and Brits you oppose yet you have no problem putting us in the same position of being ruled by Greece, aren't you being the worst type of hypocrite there is with no regard for the TCs even after agreeing to an independent state. What you expected us to do was vote for nothing as the impact of our votes would not change a thing as 99.9% of GCs wanted to gift Cyprus to Greece. Does everyone have the right to fight back in order to survive, we saw the risk and fought back full stop.

VP, under a scenario in which Cyprus would have been united with Greece, you had every right to be concerned and every right to demand that, besides your human and political rights as equal citizens of the country (Greece,) all of your cultural rights should also have to be respected. You even had the right to demand that you should have retained a degree of communal autonomy, in all the areas around Cyprus in which you traditionally or historically formed the overwhelming majority of the inhabitants. All these were and are legitimate concerns and rights. What was not legitimate was your idea that Cyprus should be partitioned. The reason why this was not legitimate is because there was not one single, unified and substantially sizable separate part of Cyprus in which you have been forming the overwhelming majority of the inhabitants, and therefore, partition would have entailed the violation of fundamental human rights of a large portion of Cypriot people, by violently uprooting them from their homes, communities (villages,) properties and historical roots, and replanting them in other parts of Cyprus.

In other words, the GC plea for “enosis” (union with Greece) was legitimate because they were historically the overwhelming majority of inhabitants all around Cyprus, long before the appearance of TCs in it; whereas at the same time it (enosis) did not foresee or entail the violation of the members of the TC community’s human, cultural and political rights. TCs would still enjoy their human (home and property) rights, would still enjoy their political rights as individual citizens of a larger entity, and would still enjoy their cultural (language, identity, religion, etc) rights in all the varius areas around Cyprus (TC villages and quarters of towns, etc) in which they were forming the regional majority. The TC plea for partition was not legitimate, for the reasons I have explained above, i.e. it entailed the uprooting, expulsion and violation of people’s fundamental human rights (more or less what happened in 1974,) which are the most important in terms of priority over the rest of rights!

In other words, any political conviction or plea (enosis and /or partition, etc,) is only legitimized to the extent it does not foresee or entail the violation of people’s rights, especially the violation of their fundamental human rights, more so when this is meant to be carried out on a massive scale!

So bascially what you are saying is trust the Greeks to respect our human rights yet not allow us to share an independent Cyprus via 2 state solution. Well sorry but I do not want to become part of a Greek society/country just like you are repulsed by and do not even want to live under a TC administration, its the same for us. The Cyprus issue is a prime example of why the majority is not always right, you can thank us for having a GC state run by GCs recognized by the world.

If you didn't want to live in a country where the overwhelming majority are Greeks then why you came to Cyprus? Apparently it was OK for you to be here as rulers who imposed their will, but not OK to be here in a democracy where the Cypriot people would decide their own destiny in a democratic way?

The era of colonialism is over and Cypriots had every right for their self-determination from their former rulers. Your rights as a minority are your human and minority rights, and nobody ever asked you to give them up. But you have no right to impose on this island what you want by force against what the overwhelming majority wants, we are not living in the era of the Ottoman rule!

[Viewpoint]

So the rule of the Turks and Brits you oppose yet you have no problem putting us in the same position of being ruled by Greece, aren't you being the worst type of hypocrite there is with no regard for the TCs even after agreeing to an independent state. What you expected us to do was vote for nothing as the impact of our votes would not change a thing as 99.9% of GCs wanted to gift Cyprus to Greece. Does everyone have the right to fight back in order to survive, we saw the risk and fought back full stop.

VP, under a scenario in which Cyprus would have been united with Greece, you had every right to be concerned and every right to demand that, besides your human and political rights as equal citizens of the country (Greece,) all of your cultural rights should also have to be respected. You even had the right to demand that you should have retained a degree of communal autonomy, in all the areas around Cyprus in which you traditionally or historically formed the overwhelming majority of the inhabitants. All these were and are legitimate concerns and rights. What was not legitimate was your idea that Cyprus should be partitioned. The reason why this was not legitimate is because there was not one single, unified and substantially sizable separate part of Cyprus in which you have been forming the overwhelming majority of the inhabitants, and therefore, partition would have entailed the violation of fundamental human rights of a large portion of Cypriot people, by violently uprooting them from their homes, communities (villages,) properties and historical roots, and replanting them in other parts of Cyprus.

In other words, the GC plea for “enosis” (union with Greece) was legitimate because they were historically the overwhelming majority of inhabitants all around Cyprus, long before the appearance of TCs in it; whereas at the same time it (enosis) did not foresee or entail the violation of the members of the TC community’s human, cultural and political rights. TCs would still enjoy their human (home and property) rights, would still enjoy their political rights as individual citizens of a larger entity, and would still enjoy their cultural (language, identity, religion, etc) rights in all the varius areas around Cyprus (TC villages and quarters of towns, etc) in which they were forming the regional majority. The TC plea for partition was not legitimate, for the reasons I have explained above, i.e. it entailed the uprooting, expulsion and violation of people’s fundamental human rights (more or less what happened in 1974,) which are the most important in terms of priority over the rest of rights!

In other words, any political conviction or plea (enosis and /or partition, etc,) is only legitimized to the extent it does not foresee or entail the violation of people’s rights, especially the violation of their fundamental human rights, more so when this is meant to be carried out on a massive scale!

So bascially what you are saying is trust the Greeks to respect our human rights yet not allow us to share an independent Cyprus via 2 state solution. Well sorry but I do not want to become part of a Greek society/country just like you are repulsed by and do not even want to live under a TC administration, its the same for us. The Cyprus issue is a prime example of why the majority is not always right, you can thank us for having a GC state run by GCs recognized by the world.

If you didn't want to live in a country where the overwhelming majority are Greeks then why you came to Cyprus? Apparently it was OK for you to be here as rulers who imposed their will, but not OK to be here in a democracy where the Cypriot people would decide their own destiny in a democratic way?

The era of colonialism is over and Cypriots had every right for their self-determination from their former rulers. Your rights as a minority are your human and minority rights, and nobody ever asked you to give them up. But you have no right to impose on this island what you want by force against what the overwhelming majority wants, we are not living in the era of the Ottoman rule!

Luckily I didnt I cam back to the TRNC where the majority are TRNC citizens.

[Kikapu]

Here are some true facts from the Perry Anderson's article.

When votes were counted, the results said everything: 65 per cent of Turkish Cypriots accepted it, 76 per cent of Greek Cypriots rejected it. What political scientist, without needing to know anything about the plan, could for an instant doubt whom it favoured?

What I don't understand is, why was the TC vote only 65% for the AP and not 100%. What more did the other 35% wanted.??

I also don't understand, why only 76% GC's voted against the AP and not 100%. Did the 24% GC's really thought that the AP could have been much worse, so they said "lets not take a chance on the next one and vote for it now, because it might be worse next time around".??

Here is the other.

the constitution of Zurich had proved unworkable enough, leading only to communal strife and breakdown. The constitution of Bürgenstock, far more complicated and still more inequitable, was a recipe for yet greater rancour and paralysis.

No kidding.!!

This has been my whole argument as to why I'm against the AP, because it would have made matters worse in Cyprus than they already are now.

I'm sure the NeoPartitionist would argue with me on my last point.!!

No kidding.!!

[EPSILON]

This has been my whole argument as to why I'm against the AP, because it would have made matters worse in Cyprus than they already are now.

I'm sure the NeoPartitionist would argue with me on my last point.!!

ABV SAID

Is anybody here who wants to discuss seriously about Zurich and AP?

G/C were killing T/C and T/C were killing G/CS.This is a fact.
What we can discuss is WHY?

If we Discuss and agree on reason for above killings then we can suggest fair repeat fair NOT UN/USA/UK and other stupid solutions.

[miltiades]

Here are some true facts from the Perry Anderson's article.

When votes were counted, the results said everything: 65 per cent of Turkish Cypriots accepted it, 76 per cent of Greek Cypriots rejected it. What political scientist, without needing to know anything about the plan, could for an instant doubt whom it favoured?

What I don't understand is, why was the TC vote only 65% for the AP and not 100%. What more did the other 35% wanted.??

I also don't understand, why only 76% GC's voted against the AP and not 100%. Did the 24% GC's really thought that the AP could have been much worse, so they said "lets not take a chance on the next one and vote for it now, because it might be worse next time around".??

Here is the other.

the constitution of Zurich had proved unworkable enough, leading only to communal strife and breakdown. The constitution of Bürgenstock, far more complicated and still more inequitable, was a recipe for yet greater rancour and paralysis.

No kidding.!!

This has been my whole argument as to why I'm against the AP, because it would have made matters worse in Cyprus than they already are now.

I'm sure the NeoPartitionist would argue with me on my last point.!!

No kidding.!!

How come you and I agree on on so much regarding Cyprus , is it because we are both Cypriots !!!

[Kikapu]

Here are some true facts from the Perry Anderson's article.

When votes were counted, the results said everything: 65 per cent of Turkish Cypriots accepted it, 76 per cent of Greek Cypriots rejected it. What political scientist, without needing to know anything about the plan, could for an instant doubt whom it favoured?

What I don't understand is, why was the TC vote only 65% for the AP and not 100%. What more did the other 35% wanted.??

I also don't understand, why only 76% GC's voted against the AP and not 100%. Did the 24% GC's really thought that the AP could have been much worse, so they said "lets not take a chance on the next one and vote for it now, because it might be worse next time around".??

Here is the other.

the constitution of Zurich had proved unworkable enough, leading only to communal strife and breakdown. The constitution of Bürgenstock, far more complicated and still more inequitable, was a recipe for yet greater rancour and paralysis.

No kidding.!!

This has been my whole argument as to why I'm against the AP, because it would have made matters worse in Cyprus than they already are now.

I'm sure the NeoPartitionist would argue with me on my last point.!!

No kidding.!!

How come you and I agree on on so much regarding Cyprus , is it because we are both Cypriots !!!

Miltiades,

Happy belated birthday my friend.

I don't know the exact reasons as to why we agree on the Cyprus issues Miltiades. Being Cypriot does help, but there are other Cypriots on the forum who does not see things the way we do, so just being Cypriot may not be the answer.

Being outside Cyprus and looking in with a different prospective may be another answer, but then again, there others in the same situation, and yet they do not agree on how we see things.

It may be personality, humility, principles, morals, understanding, being compassionate, being human and so on also plays part in how some see things than others, depending what are their core values.

There are also personal experiences one may have endured during our ugly past on the island, which some dealt with it and moved on and others have not been able to deal with it and are stuck in the past, and the future is nothing but one insecurity for them, no matter what others say.

Then there are the morally corrupted ones who are enjoying the spoils of the Cyprus problem for their own personal gains. These people are the real criminals who are trying very hard to prevent a better future for Cyprus. The criminals of the past have done their damage and for the most part, they are gone, but today's criminals are still with us. This is why it is important for us to point out who these people are from both side of the divide. I can assure you, that these criminals are the minority and they do not speak for the majority. A just and fair solution peace plan is what everyone is expecting to move the country forward, because we have already seen what an unjust and unfair peace plan did for us in the past and we don't need another one of the same, for the future.

[bilako22]

Here are some true facts from the Perry Anderson's article.

When votes were counted, the results said everything: 65 per cent of Turkish Cypriots accepted it, 76 per cent of Greek Cypriots rejected it. What political scientist, without needing to know anything about the plan, could for an instant doubt whom it favoured?

What I don't understand is, why was the TC vote only 65% for the AP and not 100%. What more did the other 35% wanted.??

I also don't understand, why only 76% GC's voted against the AP and not 100%. Did the 24% GC's really thought that the AP could have been much worse, so they said "lets not take a chance on the next one and vote for it now, because it might be worse next time around".??

Your views on Cyprus are probably influenced by the fact that you failed in your quest to obtain some of the spoils of war . There are many TCs like you who , living outside Cyprus , are bitter about losing out on the big land distribution back in 1974.

Here is the other.

the constitution of Zurich had proved unworkable enough, leading only to communal strife and breakdown. The constitution of Bürgenstock, far more complicated and still more inequitable, was a recipe for yet greater rancour and paralysis.

No kidding.!!

This has been my whole argument as to why I'm against the AP, because it would have made matters worse in Cyprus than they already are now.

I'm sure the NeoPartitionist would argue with me on my last point.!!

No kidding.!!

How come you and I agree on on so much regarding Cyprus , is it because we are both Cypriots !!!

Miltiades,

Happy belated birthday my friend.

I don't know the exact reasons as to why we agree on the Cyprus issues Miltiades. Being Cypriot does help, but there are other Cypriots on the forum who does not see things the way we do, so just being Cypriot may not be the answer.

Being outside Cyprus and looking in with a different prospective may be another answer, but then again, there others in the same situation, and yet they do not agree on how we see things.

It may be personality, humility, principles, morals, understanding, being compassionate, being human and so on also plays part in how some see things than others, depending what are their core values.

There are also personal experiences one may have endured during our ugly past on the island, which some dealt with it and moved on and others have not been able to deal with it and are stuck in the past, and the future is nothing but one insecurity for them, no matter what others say.

Then there are the morally corrupted ones who are enjoying the spoils of the Cyprus problem for their own personal gains. These people are the real criminals who are trying very hard to prevent a better future for Cyprus. The criminals of the past have done their damage and for the most part, they are gone, but today's criminals are still with us. This is why it is important for us to point out who these people are from both side of the divide. I can assure you, that these criminals are the minority and they do not speak for the majority. A just and fair solution peace plan is what everyone is expecting to move the country forward, because we have already seen what an unjust and unfair peace plan did for us in the past and we don't need another one of the same, for the future.