Cyprus-Forum.com

[Simon]

FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE CYPRUS (WITH GREECE'S HELP) WOULD HAVE NO CHANCE AGAINST TURKEY:

[quote]Turkey maintains a numerical superiority; they are just more. The Greeks counter that threat with much better weapons. The Hellenic Armed Forces are not exactly "naked", as some Turks may like to think.

(a) The Hellenic Air Force flies planes Turkey does not have (F16 Block 52+s and Mirage 2000-5s which are no joke; God Bless France and Dassault for that). There is no Turkish air superiority. Instead, there IS balance. Each side has an about equal number of fighters with the Greeks having a quality & tactical advantage through planes Turkey does not
have. Add to the above two types, the strike Corsair A7 (which will be retired in phases as soon as the new batch of 30 F16 Block 52+s are delivered in 2009 or when the Eurofighters get ordered). Yes, Turkey has more F16s (majority is older F16 Block 40s and newer Block 50s), but the Greeks balance that difference with the better planes: Mirages
2000-5 and F16s Block 52+ and Block 50s (backbone of the Hellenic Airforce is F16 Block 50) as well as the A7s.
The Hellenic Airforce uses its F16s for air superiority and strike roles and the A7s for pure strike. The Turks use their F16s for both type of roles. The Hellenic Aiforce uses its Mirage 2000-5 for air superiority and naval support through the use of the numerous Exocet/HARPOON missiles and 90 cruise GPS guided SCALP missiles (thanks to France and Aerospatiale). The Turks still use F-5s, which the Hellenic Airforce has retire. Both airforces use upgraded Phantom F4 planes.

(b) The AWACS used by the Hellenic Airforce are top noch; microwave based technology made in Sweden (Ericcson).
Turkey does not have that staff. Turkey uses the US made AWAC system, which is great but it does not "see" as far in range as the Swedish system does.

(c) The Hellenic air defence is brand new and multilayered, using newest Patriot and S300 systems (now they are talking about acquiring/upgrading to S400 which can see stealth) for long range tracking and target engagement. NEW systems for middle and short range threat engagement are deployed. The equipment is made in France (Crotale), Russia (TOR M1).

(d) The Hellenic Navy has the capacity to blockade Cyprus and maintain full presence in the Aegean (traditionally, the Greeks have been a naval nation). It is being enhanced with top notch S214 submarines, which Turkey does not have. These vessels are made in Greece and Germany. Consider the new frigate procurements and the Super Vita Fast Attack crafts the Hellenic Navy is equipped, procured from Vornycroft (British company). Consider the quick response landing capability the Hellenic Navy has now thru its Hovercraft fleet (large Zubr class crafts made in Russia and medium size made in the UK).Turkey does not have that staff.

(e) I do not know whether Turkey manufactures tanks. The Hellenic Army has more modern tanks than the Turks have; I am talking about the new Leopard types (2A6 and 2A4). The army is using the Apache attack helicopters (Longbow configuration as well) the Turks DO NOT have. Consider the upgraded capability of the Hellenic Artillery with systems such as the ATACMS, MLRS (Turkey also has these systems) and the top notch German made self propelled Howitzer system PzH 2000s (I do not know whether Turkey uses it). Yes, Turkey has more manpower but NOT better equipment. Plus, a war conflict would have taken place in the sea and air, not on land. The Greeks have enough equipment to defend their land front.

(f) In the 15 years 1990 to 2005, the Turkish Armed Forces budgeted $150 Billion for arms procurements. The budget for the Hellenic Armed Forces was $125 Billion. Turkey is 6 times larger than Greece (population and area) and is surrounded by threats (Kurds, Russia, Syria, Iran, Iraq and ... Greece). The ratio of $125/$150 is NOT 1/6 and the Greeks spend all that money to just deal with Turkey. Greece is NOT surrounded by similar threats the Turks face. Who spends more money now for arms? Sadly, the Greeks do. And this spending leaves areas in Greece underdeveloped. But I believe spending now in Greece is lowered due to EU related reasons. And this is good news.

(g) If and when Turkey procures J35s (Joint Strike Fighter), the Hellenic Airforce will procure a blend of Eurofighters (better plane that the J35) and J35s (so Lockheed Martin and the USA does not complain). I am saying "when", because Turkey made similar procurement announcements for 145 King Cobra attack helicopters, which finally they did not buy as the Turkish economy went kind of broke. Plus the Greeks lobbied here in the US against that sale. This Turkish diplomatic tactic with big time procurement announcements is well known.

(h) Who says there is no defence industry in Greece? Maybe (I do not know) the Turkish defence industry is more developed. But, where do you think the navy builds its ships and submarines or where do you think the Eurofighter will be made (this is called offset benefit agreements)?
I believe there is balance in the area. If there was not, the Turks would have taken over the Aegean and whatever else they wanted.

Cyprus is a sad story. Back then, the military dictators were in power in Greece. Not the free Greeks. Things now are much different.[/quote]

From a well-informed source. There is some poor spelling/grammar in the above, but I think you get the message.

[Piratis]

Anybody who thinks that Cyprus can win a direct one-on-one war against Turkey is naive. Anyone who thinks that Cyprus can not be liberated because of this, is also naive. Thats not the way things work.

Take for example the once mighty Ottoman empire. For its era the Ottoman empire was much more powerful than what Turkey is today, and the Greeks way less powrful since they didn't even rule a country. Still, the balance of power changed in such a way that the Ottoman empire collapsed and the Greeks succesfully liberated several of their territories.

A more recent example is the USSR nuclear superpower. Countries like Latvia or Estonia etc didn't even have their own armies, and yet they were liberated.

If you look back in history you will see tons of similar examples.

Turkey today is an unstable country torn between Turks and Kurds, between Islamists and Secularists and between pro-EU and anti-EU. I think there is a very real possibility that Turkey will split up in the near future. If we and Greece act correctly at that critical point I believe we would have a good chance of liberating our country.

The TCs here should realize that they are the ones insisting on war, by insisting to keep under their rule Greek Cypriot towns and villages. They should understand that we will not surrender to them Kerynia, Famagusta, Morfou, Rizokarpaso or any other of own villages. Their minority can have a proportional representation and boosted minority rights, and we can even agree that they can have autonomy over villages that they have been traditional TC only or where TCs have been the majority. But demanding to Turkify our towns and villages, and gain lands on our loss is clearly an act of war and they should not expect from us that we will just capitulate and let them have our lands.

We are a small nation with a large part of our nation under foreign occupation. We , however , must accept that the T/Cs have as much right to Cyprus as we have. I do not subscribe to the minority versus majority issue but being a realist I understand that there more Piratis and Miltiades on this island than there are Birs , Icemans and Halils . Since I see the Birs , the Halils and the Icemans as my equal Cypriot citizens I have no problem in dealing with the irrefutable fact that Cyprus is not Greek and is not Turkish . I'm pleased to note that you consider "naive " the idea of engaging in a war with Turkey , some forum members have misconscrewed my objectives as those of either a coward or as one said a traitor . Preferring negotiations and international political influences as a means of forcing Turkey out of Cyprus and finding a just solution is anything but cowardice.
Our nation is not currently under threat of an invasion by the occupying forces, we must negotiate , we must respect the position of the T/Cs , a minority in what was created by Turkey to be their homeland, unwanted and unrecognised by all apart from what they consider as their protector and guardian , let us show them sincerely that this island is theirs just as its ours , that their future is guaranteed and their safety in a united and democratic Cyprus is paramount .
Let us show them that we care that WE are their protectors , instead of embarking on war mongering talk and bravado .

Miltiades, recognizing an ethnic group as an official minority is actually a good thing for that group since it offers to them special minority rights, which are over and above the rights that all citizens anyway have.

Our island is already invaded and already occupied and there is an ongoing war which is currently in a cease fire. So talking about "starting a war" is irrelevant. We already have a war. The question is how we will end the war, and I am sure you will agree with me that this war can not end with us signing away 1/3rd of our country to be officially and permanently Turkified.

I agree with what you say about the message we have to send to TCs. But I think we should also include a very clear message that if they choose war and brute force in order to gain land and disproportionately large amount of power on our loss, then we will fight that war by all means and for as long as it takes. To put it otherwise, we offer to them our respect and friendship, as long as they do the same. If they continue to act in a hostile way demanding to Turkify our lands and gain on our loss, then we are obligated to fight back.

[Get Real!]

The US AND Brittain can rest assured that their human rights record is open for all to see.

Embarrassing assumptions are the curse of the unlearned...

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... 714#295714

[Paphitis]

Well I have cast my vote. And let me tell you it was a very easy choice for me. I had to go with GR as I agree with the point of view that Cyprus can and will consider the military option as a last resort and when the time is right.

As Piratis correctly stated, the 1974 war is not over. And the CNG has every right to defend it's lands and liberate the occupied territory of the RoC.

My suggestion to the TCs is that they take the current peace talks very seriously and be very flexible to achieve a just and viable solution in Cyprus. To do anything else will risk a conflict in the future.

[Gabira]

My suggestion to the TCs is that they take the current peace talks very seriously and be very flexible to achieve a just and viable solution in Cyprus. To do anything else will risk a conflict in the future.

Keep dreaming.

My suggestion to the GCs is that they take the current peace talks very seriously and be EXTREMELY flexible to achieve a just and viable solution in Cyprus to officially recognise the TRNC. To do anything else will risk a conflict in the future.

[miltiades]

It is safe to assume that Miltiades has cast his vote...

Why should I cast a vote , can't you read what the poll says , you on the other hand were the first to cast. I can prove I have not because if I do right now you will immediately see an increase of one vote for my views. Can you do the same , lets go mate .

[miltiades]

The US AND Brittain can rest assured that their human rights record is open for all to see.

Embarrassing assumptions are the curse of the unlearned...

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... 714#295714

Precisely "open for all to see " , the good the bad and the ugly , this is what Western democracy means.

[miltiades]

Well I have cast my vote. And let me tell you it was a very easy choice for me. I had to go with GR as I agree with the point of view that Cyprus can and will consider the military option as a last resort and when the time is right.

As Piratis correctly stated, the 1974 war is not over. And the CNG has every right to defend it's lands and liberate the occupied territory of the RoC.

My suggestion to the TCs is that they take the current peace talks very seriously and be very flexible to achieve a just and viable solution in Cyprus. To do anything else will risk a conflict in the future.

Then you voted for the wrong issue here. Read what GR wrote. You agreed with his point of view that war IS THE ONLY OPTION NOT THAT CYPRUS WILL CONSIDER MILITARY OPTION AS A LAST RESORT.
I would have thought , having copied his post a few times you would have understood what I objected to . You read wrong buddy , he said " WAR IS THE ONLY OPTION , WE CAN ONLY LIBERATE THE OCCUPIED LANDS WITH BLOODSHED.
He did not say that if all else fails and we are left with no other option but war.... NO SIR , READ THE OFFENDING POST WHICH I WILL ONCE AGAIN POST SO THAT YOU MAY REGRET YOUR ABOVE COMMENTS.

[Oracle]

The US AND Brittain can rest assured that their human rights record is open for all to see.

Embarrassing assumptions are the curse of the unlearned...

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... 714#295714

Precisely "open for all to see " , the good the bad and the ugly , this is what Western democracy means.

.... and this Miltiades is precisely what Turkey is denying us in our own country, and hence the need for their extrication.

[miltiades]

FOR THE BENEFIT OF THOSE G/Cs THAT HAVE VOTED FOR GRs SOLUTION , HE DID NOT SAY WAR IS AN OPTION HE SAID CLEARLY , READ FOR YOUR SELVES.

"""""The Military Option: Turkey Vs Cyprus

Any illusions of a complex inter-communal political arrangement being implemented in Cyprus is now history, Turkey’s EU make-believe journey is over, and it is now a race to get the upper hand in technology, political influence, and in the overall balance of power because unfortunately it’s become apparent that Cyprus can only be liberated in the same way it was enslaved… through bloodshed!

The RoC is very much aware of Turkey's size, manpower, and military expenditure, etc, so when push goes to shove it will be Turkey that will have the most surprises as she is the one that underestimates the Republic of Cyprus and not the other way round.

Unfortunately, Cyprus will have to sacrifice some of her young generations so that future generations of Cypriots will live free on their liberated island from the Turkic curse that began in 1571.

In the event of a war there is little doubt that the geopolitical repercussions will be severe for Turkey win or lose. Realistically, most wars don't last longer than a month and it is with strategic maneuvers with respect to time that cause the other side to panic, make errors, and then offer concessions on the negotiating table. The Republic of Cyprus can muster around 100,000 men, have stockpiles of modern firepower and equipment…

http://www.army.gov.cy/index.php?id=227

…including the ability to strike deep into southern Turkey with ballistic missiles so all southern Turkish naval ports that can be used to provide further reinforcements can be leveled. The Turkish air force can be countered by the newly acquired French Mistral S2A technology (this is actually the world’s finest S2A)…


AND THIS PARAGRAPH IS RESPONSIBLE FOR MAKING MY BLOOD BOIL , AN IRRESPONSIBLE WAR MONGERING
SENDING THE WRONG MESSAGE TO OUR T/C COMPATRIOTS . GR IS A DEMAGOGUE AND A DANGEROUS ONE .

"""Any illusions of a complex inter-communal political arrangement being implemented in Cyprus is now history, Turkey’s EU make-believe journey is over, and it is now a race to get the upper hand in technology, political influence, and in the overall balance of power because unfortunately it’s become apparent that Cyprus can only be liberated in the same way it was enslaved… through bloodshed! """"