Cyprus-Forum.com

[miltiades]

I am somewhat inclined to favour the views expressed by Get Real (although a little less forcefulness in some areas of his strong opinions might entice members to support them more readily) since I think he has a better grasp of the realities of general warfare and it's structures.

Miltiades is doubtless sincere in his beliefs, unfortunately he is wide open to political chicanery and I think we have all had quite enough of that.

On a lighter note, Miltiades has an advantage over Get Real in that he is apparently quite fond of his wine, that being the case (although Get Real is slightly ahead at this stage of the poll) he can find some solace via imbibement should he be defeated whereas poor Get Real will have little to console him should HE be the vanquished.

On a lighter- lighter note, the slang term for 'Wine' is 'Plonk', I do wonder if it would be in order to refer to one who has a strong predilection for the juice of the grape, as a 'Plonker', an interesting play on words don't you think ?.

Eliko , the whole point is that most forum members do not consider war as a means of achieving a solution to the Cyprus problem as advocated by GR , who is convinced that Cyprus , perhaps with the help of Greece , and this is Perhaps with a capital P. He is also convinced that Cyprus is now a world player and if it has to it can take on Turkey and defeat it. This is pure nonsense and any one with slightly more brain than GR can see how ridiculous such assertions are . The same assertions were made by the military coup leaders way back in 1974 , remember the famous words , "we shall throw them in the sea !!!
My position has never altered , I have never deviated from my position that the solution to the Cyprus problem must be through negotiations and the leverage of the EU as well as the International community .
You state above re: GR "since I think he has a better grasp of the realities of general warfare and it's structures."""
Are you referring the grasp of world events and terrorism as in Bin Laden and the suicide bombers that you both admire ?? Is it his "grasp" of polemics that convinces him that Cyprus can take on Turkey and defeat her , thus achieving the objective and liberating by force the occupied areas ? I have in the past expressed my astonishment at the wasted education that you received , once again I repeat what a bloody waste of an education.
I say this not because you also think on the same lines as this moron , but because of your above grotesque statement about a man who thinks that the Cyprus nation can achieve liberation of the occupied areas by defeating Turkey !!In an international specialist forum dealing with international warfare , you would be laughed at and ridiculed !!

ps. Do note that so far the majority that have voted are against war , I believe , taking his own vote , his support is less then 40% .
ps no.2 . what does imbibement mean ? !!!

Are you saying that there is absolutely no chance that Cyprus and Greece can defeat Turkey in an open conflict?

I am not advocating a war here but I am just asking whether you believe that Turkey can be defeated by Greece and Cyprus should such a conflict occur.

In short NO , Greece and Cyprus can inflict substantial collateral damage but could never defeat a nation of 75 million , and one that has the backing of the USA and Brittain , no ifs and buts Turkey is a huge military machine , it may very well suffer heavy loses but it can not be ultimately defeated .

[Paphitis]

Did GR and Miltiades propose solution somewhere? Ask from both to post their solution and then I will tell which one I agree most! I think both want very similar solution.

Sotos , surely you know GRs solution.
War , a few mercenaries if we have to , hope Greece lends a hand , but if not have no fear GR is here , we shall defeat Turkey might even march on to Constantinople .
My solution will come from mutual negotiations , the leverage available via the EU and the International community and that Turkey will negotiate , bearing in mind that it will also come under pressure from the T/Cs.
I do not believe that war is an option , I do not believe that Cyprus can achieve a solution by war and I believe that those that talk of war are the same people that caused the catastrophe in the first place. My commitment is to a united Cyprus , I opposed the AP because it was not a unifying plan but a legalised partition.
Cyprus must not make the mistake of thinking that force can achieve the desired results , It will not , and it will have huge repercussions that will shake the foundations of the nation for years to come.
Does any G/C politician support GRs assertion that war can achieve a solution ??
Let me also remind you that the last impression we want to give the world community is that we are preparing for war.
We can send Turkey a message that should she nurture any ambitions of extending her conquest we shall not be an easy target , but we must never fantasize that we can militarily achieve what we set out to.

Let me tell you what the repercussions are for ruling out war. Cyprus will remain divided and occupied for ever. Do you understand this Miltiades? Do not think that the EU has any leverage on Turkey. Because very soon Erdogan will be out and a more secular and nationalistic government will take it's place and there is no way that they are going to make 1 concession over Cyprus. They will be sticking their middle index finger to the EU in due course. The Turkish military is a very non compromising institution and they will never let go of any lands that they won by war. The only solution that Turkey wants is to create 2 equal partner states in a loose federation which is tantamount to legitimising it's gains in 74. The AP would have been a catastrophe to our cause and I only hope that Pres X is never tricked into anything that even resembles the AP.

[BirKibrisli]

No prizes for those who can guess which way I voted....

I want to ask one simple question to those who think war is an option....

Lets say RoC and Greece did manage to defeat Turkey in a lightening military strike....What then?????????Will Greece march into Istanbul and make it their capital again???? What will you do with the 50 Million or so Turks who live in Turkey,and the 5 million or so who live in the diaspora???? How long do you think it will take them to reorganise and strike back,using all means possible(including suicide bombers,terrorist tactics etc) to liberate their homeland?????

[BirKibrisli]

Forgot to tell you a scene which stuck in my mind from an Italian film about WW2...Fascism was on the rise,and Mussolini's black shirts were running around the country whipping up nationalistic fervor....

On the wall of the City Council,in a little mountain village, the black shirts came and wrote in huge letters " IT IS BETTER TO LIVE 1 DAY AS A LION THAN 1000 DAYS AS A SHEEP"

People stood around clapping and cheering and making war-cries...
Then the village idiot approached,read the slogan,reached for the paint brush and proceeded to delete some of the words...
The new slogan read "IT IS BETTER TO LIVE 1000 DAYS..."...

[Paphitis]

I am somewhat inclined to favour the views expressed by Get Real (although a little less forcefulness in some areas of his strong opinions might entice members to support them more readily) since I think he has a better grasp of the realities of general warfare and it's structures.

Miltiades is doubtless sincere in his beliefs, unfortunately he is wide open to political chicanery and I think we have all had quite enough of that.

On a lighter note, Miltiades has an advantage over Get Real in that he is apparently quite fond of his wine, that being the case (although Get Real is slightly ahead at this stage of the poll) he can find some solace via imbibement should he be defeated whereas poor Get Real will have little to console him should HE be the vanquished.

On a lighter- lighter note, the slang term for 'Wine' is 'Plonk', I do wonder if it would be in order to refer to one who has a strong predilection for the juice of the grape, as a 'Plonker', an interesting play on words don't you think ?.

Eliko , the whole point is that most forum members do not consider war as a means of achieving a solution to the Cyprus problem as advocated by GR , who is convinced that Cyprus , perhaps with the help of Greece , and this is Perhaps with a capital P. He is also convinced that Cyprus is now a world player and if it has to it can take on Turkey and defeat it. This is pure nonsense and any one with slightly more brain than GR can see how ridiculous such assertions are . The same assertions were made by the military coup leaders way back in 1974 , remember the famous words , "we shall throw them in the sea !!!
My position has never altered , I have never deviated from my position that the solution to the Cyprus problem must be through negotiations and the leverage of the EU as well as the International community .
You state above re: GR "since I think he has a better grasp of the realities of general warfare and it's structures."""
Are you referring the grasp of world events and terrorism as in Bin Laden and the suicide bombers that you both admire ?? Is it his "grasp" of polemics that convinces him that Cyprus can take on Turkey and defeat her , thus achieving the objective and liberating by force the occupied areas ? I have in the past expressed my astonishment at the wasted education that you received , once again I repeat what a bloody waste of an education.
I say this not because you also think on the same lines as this moron , but because of your above grotesque statement about a man who thinks that the Cyprus nation can achieve liberation of the occupied areas by defeating Turkey !!In an international specialist forum dealing with international warfare , you would be laughed at and ridiculed !!

ps. Do note that so far the majority that have voted are against war , I believe , taking his own vote , his support is less then 40% .
ps no.2 . what does imbibement mean ? !!!

Are you saying that there is absolutely no chance that Cyprus and Greece can defeat Turkey in an open conflict?

I am not advocating a war here but I am just asking whether you believe that Turkey can be defeated by Greece and Cyprus should such a conflict occur.

In short NO , Greece and Cyprus can inflict substantial collateral damage but could never defeat a nation of 75 million , and one that has the backing of the USA and Brittain , no ifs and buts Turkey is a huge military machine , it may very well suffer heavy loses but it can not be ultimately defeated .

You see this is where we disagree. Given the right conditions, Greece is more than capable in defeating Turkey in the Aegean. You only need to study the Balance of Power between these 2 countries to realise that. The HAF and HN are far superior in terms of training and technology and every Greek Island is defended by an advance array of Air Defence Systems, including the infamous S300s. A war in the Aegean will occupy a good proportion of the Turkish military machine and could very well cause the destruction of their navy as they exit the Sea of Marmara.

As for Cyprus, only 2 things are required and they are:
1) Some air support to achieve air superiority. All that would be needed here are 20 or so fighters F-16s or M2000, and
2) Minor naval elements which would inhibit their supply lines. A mere 2 submarines would be catastrophic. Can I remind you that if Nireus was allowed to complete it's mission in 74, the outcome on Cyprus would have been very differant.

Greece would not even be required to provide troops or any other support as the CNG has an adequately equipped force with the latest in Armor, and Air Defence. A fully mobilised CNG also outnumbers the Turkish Army in occupied Cyprus. Make no mistake, Cyprus does not spend millions on hardware for nothing especially when this money could probably be better spent on health and education. Also, take note that the CNG is purchasing more and more offensive equipment such as T80, Leonidas, HIND helicopters (these will be a nightmare to Turkish armor) and has a fairly advance Air Defence Network which should have their pilots very worried.

And please do not call me a war monger. A responsible nation will arm to defend itself when required and Cyprus would have every right to liberate it's lands.

It is true that Turkey is supported by the UK and US. But let me remind you that it is not impossible for this to change down the track. Nations switch alliances over time as their interests change. There are already some very interesting Geopolitical changes occuring in the region.

Also note that the US will quite possibly have it's first black president. I find this to be particularly exciting as it breaks all the racial taboos that exist it that country which is still quite racist today, particularly in the redneck regions of the south. Only a few decades ago there was a very nast group called the KKK. Watch Mississippi Burning to get an insight into what the US was like not that long ago.

The future President of USA has already made a couple of very proactive statements over the Cyprus Issue and expect a geoplotical shift on the matter over time. Obama, has the potential to be a very inspirational US president and I only hope that he joins the likes of JFK and Roosevelt and leave his mark in history. And you never know, he may be the President that actually stands up for justice when it comes to Cyprus.

Always remember, that our enemies today could be our biggest allies tomorrow.

[Paphitis]

No prizes for those who can guess which way I voted....

I want to ask one simple question to those who think war is an option....

Lets say RoC and Greece did manage to defeat Turkey in a lightening military strike....What then?????????Will Greece march into Istanbul and make it their capital again???? What will you do with the 50 Million or so Turks who live in Turkey,and the 5 million or so who live in the diaspora???? How long do you think it will take them to reorganise and strike back,using all means possible(including suicide bombers,terrorist tactics etc) to liberate their homeland?????

Now Greece taking over Constantinople is a very ridiculous notion and will never be contemplated by Greece. Nor would Greece ever attempt to invade any other piece of Turkish territory.

[miltiades]

Did GR and Miltiades propose solution somewhere? Ask from both to post their solution and then I will tell which one I agree most! I think both want very similar solution.

Sotos , surely you know GRs solution.
War , a few mercenaries if we have to , hope Greece lends a hand , but if not have no fear GR is here , we shall defeat Turkey might even march on to Constantinople .
My solution will come from mutual negotiations , the leverage available via the EU and the International community and that Turkey will negotiate , bearing in mind that it will also come under pressure from the T/Cs.
I do not believe that war is an option , I do not believe that Cyprus can achieve a solution by war and I believe that those that talk of war are the same people that caused the catastrophe in the first place. My commitment is to a united Cyprus , I opposed the AP because it was not a unifying plan but a legalised partition.
Cyprus must not make the mistake of thinking that force can achieve the desired results , It will not , and it will have huge repercussions that will shake the foundations of the nation for years to come.
Does any G/C politician support GRs assertion that war can achieve a solution ??
Let me also remind you that the last impression we want to give the world community is that we are preparing for war.
We can send Turkey a message that should she nurture any ambitions of extending her conquest we shall not be an easy target , but we must never fantasize that we can militarily achieve what we set out to.

Let me tell you what the repercussions are for ruling out war. Cyprus will remain divided and occupied for ever. Do you understand this Miltiades? Do not think that the EU has any leverage on Turkey. Because very soon Erdogan will be out and a more secular and nationalistic government will take it's place and there is no way that they are going to make 1 concession over Cyprus. They will be sticking their middle index finger to the EU in due course. The Turkish military is a very non compromising institution and they will never let go of any lands that they won by war. The only solution that Turkey wants is to create 2 equal partner states in a loose federation which is tantamount to legitimising it's gains in 74. The AP would have been a catastrophe to our cause and I only hope that Pres X is never tricked into anything that even resembles the AP.

Paphitis , do try and understand me too. Cyprus can never achieve a peaceful solution with war against Turkey. A political war is our only option , a war that has no casualties , a war that can be fought every single day without the loss of life , without blood being spilt and this is our biggest asset , our ability to show the word that we are a peaceful nation that wants a solution and Turkish troops out of Cyprus. Do please take note of the other side's concerns too , they are also entitled to to live in their country without the fear of persecution , which is exactly what the war will ultimately achieve that is if we defeat Turkey by dreaming !!!
What do you think the T/Cs will do if war erupts , twiddle their thumbs ?
Paphitis you have voted for the wrong option and your conscience will tell you so .

[BirKibrisli]

No prizes for those who can guess which way I voted....

I want to ask one simple question to those who think war is an option....

Lets say RoC and Greece did manage to defeat Turkey in a lightening military strike....What then?????????Will Greece march into Istanbul and make it their capital again???? What will you do with the 50 Million or so Turks who live in Turkey,and the 5 million or so who live in the diaspora???? How long do you think it will take them to reorganise and strike back,using all means possible(including suicide bombers,terrorist tactics etc) to liberate their homeland?????

Now Greece taking over Constantinople is a very ridiculous notion and will never be contemplated by Greece. Nor would Greece ever attempt to invade any other piece of Turkish territory.

But,dear Paphitis...How can you defeat Turkey comprehensively without invading her territory???And if you don't invade Turkey what would stop Turkey from reorganising and invading Greece???? Or the rest of Cyprus for that matter???

[Eliko]

miltiades 'Creetings' and thank you for dismissing my observations in your usual cavalier fashion.

Had you taken the time to read and digest what I submitted, you may have noticed that I was not advocating 'War' but was referring to the choices (2) we were invited to vote on.

I did state that I was inclined to favour Get Real's views and I will explain why I felt it was necessary to do so, quite simply, YOU were the only alternative and I consider your powers of persuasion to be somewhat inferior to those of Get Real.

I do feel that you would fail (as a negotiator) in proposing acceptable solutions since you would possibly be a little too flexible in accepting the views of those you may have entered into debate with on such important issues as would come under discussion.

Which is quite surprising since you are generally notoriously inflexible in most of the topics you comment on.

It is THAT inconsistency (and remember we are only speculating here) which prompted me to favour Get Real who would, I feel, be more capable of maintaining his stance in such a debate (as aforementioned).

In the arena of politics ( and I am sure we are all well aware of what takes place in such arenas) placing YOU there would be tantamount to throwing a lamb to the wolves, you are far too nice a chap to be subjected to such a fate and I would not countenance such treatment of you.

The outcome of this poll will in no way have any relevance outside of this forum, be wary of delusion my old friend, these are only games we play.

Respect. Eliko.

[Jerry]

I have do disagree here. In the long term there can be no military solution to the Cyprus Problem for the Greek Cypriots. In the unlikely event of the Turkish forces being thrown off the island the bulk of the Turkish military would still be alive and kicking on the mainland. Cyprus would thereafter be under siege, the economy of the ROC would collapse and the ability to buy more armaments for defence would go. If Greece were involved in this expulsion they would no doubt suffer casualties and the pressure from NATO and many Greeks for peace would be overwhelming. Turkey is one of the proudest pig-headed countries in the world, it would never accept a military defeat by the ROC and sooner or later somehow it would seek revenge, even if it meant exclusion from the EU.