Cyprus-Forum.com

[umit07]

I don't think so alexiss. It was shot down in my opinion. No war will take in my opinion also but if there was a war between the three I still think the Greeks would loose it may take a month or two but in the end in my opinion Turkey's extremely large amount of manpower would win the battle.

I'm sorry umit but it's a fact: it wasn't shot down, no turkish missile has ever hit a Greek fighter. If you'll ask me I will search for links, but not before Monday I'm afraid, sorry about that.

Regarding a possible war between Greece and Turkey: You know perfectly well that in such a case the conflict will not be limited to Cyprus, it will spread across the Aegean and the borders in Thrace. Now, Turkey has a huge army, that's true. The problem is they have absolutely no way to transfer them to Greek soil. There is an unpenetrateable net of missile installations on the Greek islands that, combined with the very strong Greek naval forces make an aegean invasion unthinkable. The same goes for the land border in Thrace. The mountaneous terrain, the extremely high concentration of Greek forces and the short border line make it impossibe for Turkey to advance. The only way would be through an alliance with Bulgaria that would allow Turkish troops to pass through the Bulgarian border, but that's a scenario even crazier than the one we're discussing now

alexiss, personally I find most of your views correct and unbiased. The fact is that I believe that the troops on the ground are the most important part of any military operation. Greece may inflict a lot of damage their missile systems, which may aid them in killing 100's of thousands but the key poınt here is that Turkey has the men to spare ın such an event the dıfference between 1 million and 2 million dead is something they can endure. Turkey and Greece will never go to war in my opinion and the superpowers would never support either side. SUch a war would be enough to start WW3 and talking about it to the extent we have in this thread is just utter bollocks. Whatever soln. reached in Cyprus will be a political one and NOT a military achievment.

[umit07]

Umit asks:

"If the Greeks are so full of themselves why don't shoot down every plane that enters their so called airspace?"

it is called rules of engagement, a whole set of procedures that must be followed to ensure that no civilian plane is shot down by mistake and that the violating plane is in fact armed and hostile. So a visual check must be made, the plane signaled to get out etc etc.

The only case of a deliberate downing I recall is of a Turkish reconnaissance equipped F-16 within Greek territory, over eastern Crete, a few years back and the pilot was taken in custody, in hospital actually, and it happened in the 90s. The incident was extensivly covered in the media although it was said to have been an accident.

Nikitas for a few years now all Turkish jets flying in the Aegean are unarmed. I personally do not think that many tiny land masses which a jet flys over in a second should grant the greeks the right of having the airspace over the entire aegean. A jet flying over Crete is provocative and I don't support it. But a jet flying over the tiny islands right under the nose of Turkey is her right in my opinion of course.

[Oracle]

Umit asks:

"If the Greeks are so full of themselves why don't shoot down every plane that enters their so called airspace?"

it is called rules of engagement, a whole set of procedures that must be followed to ensure that no civilian plane is shot down by mistake and that the violating plane is in fact armed and hostile. So a visual check must be made, the plane signaled to get out etc etc.

The only case of a deliberate downing I recall is of a Turkish reconnaissance equipped F-16 within Greek territory, over eastern Crete, a few years back and the pilot was taken in custody, in hospital actually, and it happened in the 90s. The incident was extensivly covered in the media although it was said to have been an accident.

Nikitas for a few years now all Turkish jets flying in the Aegean are unarmed. I personally do not think that many tiny land masses which a jet flys over in a second should grant the greeks the right of having the airspace over the entire aegean. A jet flying over Crete is provocative and I don't support it. But a jet flying over the tiny islands right under the nose of Turkey is her right in my opinion of course.

Turkey's expansionist nose doesn't belong there.

If I had a catapult I would shoot those jets down myself

[umit07]

If you had a catapult oracle god knows what shit you would get us into. So I pray to god that the only thing you got is a big mouth.

[Oracle]

If you had a catapult oracle god knows what shit you would get us into. So I pray to god that the only thing you got is a big mouth.

Hey ... just joining in with the prevailing polemics on the forum!

..... capturing the mood for conflict, instead of my usual "no war" ... shoe on the other foot, seeing the other side etc

Now does anyone have a spare rubber band?

[umit07]

If you had a catapult oracle god knows what shit you would get us into. So I pray to god that the only thing you got is a big mouth.

Hey ... just joining in with the prevailing polemics on the forum!

..... capturing the mood for conflict, instead of my usual "no war" ... shoe on the other foot, seeing the other side etc

Now does anyone have a spare rubber band?

Capturing the mood of conflict! YOu are virtually begging for it! It's a good thing all you can do is play with rubber bands.

[alexISS]

alexiss, personally I find most of your views correct and unbiased

Thank you, I too find your views moderate and balanced

Greece may inflict a lot of damage their missile systems, which may aid them in killing 100's of thousands but the key poınt here is that Turkey has the men to spare ın such an event the dıfference between 1 million and 2 million dead is something they can endure.

Maybe, if you assume that Greece would run out of firepower before Turkey runs out of troops. Also don't forget that Turkey would not afford to send even half of its forces to the Greek front and leave its eastern border vulnerable.

Turkey and Greece will never go to war in my opinion and the superpowers would never support either side. SUch a war would be enough to start WW3 and talking about it to the extent we have in this thread is just utter bollocks. Whatever soln. reached in Cyprus will be a political one and NOT a military achievment.

Of course they won't, there would be no winner in such a war because both countries would end up devastated, I don't believe anyone here is seriously talking about war scenarios anyway, it's just a light discussion we're having

[Nikitas]

"airspace over the entire aegean" supposedly this is what Turkey is saying that Greece claims.

This is repetition of propaganda and it is the sort of easy nonsense that Turkey tries to push in international organizations like the ICAO and others.

To clarify:

There is the Athens Flight Information Region which is the area of authority controlling civilian flights and as the Aegean is dotted with Greek civil airports the Athens FIR rightly covers most of the Aegean, as the Istanbul FIR covers a large part of the Black Sea etc. All FIRs cover international air space without affecting the status as international, it is simply a matter of traffic control and not "ownership".

Greece wants military aircraft to file flight plans, or at least announce their entry into FIRs, the Turks, and others oppose this notion. Presumably when there is a mid-air collision between a civilian airliner and a fighter jet there will be an international agreement for military aircraft to file flight plans.

Then there is the air space. Greece claims a 10 mile air space beyond its shores. It has claimed this since the 1930s. Turkey accepted this util 1975, since then it insists that air space extends as far as land space ie 6 miles. The law of the sea convention grants states the right to have 12 mile territorial seas so the Greek claim is within those limits.

So far we have talked of things that can be subject to dispute and counter claim.

But there is a type of violation which is beyond dispute and that is overflying Greek territory within the 6 mile limit and often right over land. The excuse that Greece has lots of tiny islands which make avoiding them a hassle does not hold water in this day and age when even civilians possess accurate navigation aids. There are other air forces flying in the Aegean (USA, Russia, France and others) and they manage to fly without violating anyone's airspace. Turks do it almost daily and beliberately.

Some say it is to test Greek reaction times, which is a ridiculous assertion considering it takes a jet a few seconds to fly over a small island. In any case the air defence systems have the jet marked from the time it takes off deep within Turkey, so there is no issue with reaction times. The point is to establish a pattern of dispute over national territory, a point supported by statements such as "it was a mistake to give the Dodecanese to Greece" and others like it.

The net result is that Turkey is daily threatening the inhabitants of the islands and this is not the way neighbors are supposed to behave. It has managed to give these people tangible reasons to dislike Turks and be wary of them.

There is a book written in the 30s in the USA. "How to make friends and influence people". Someone ought to send a copy to the Turkish leadership.

[Paphitis]

What makes you think greece will support an GC attack on the North??? THey never will! You will have to carry it out by yourselves.

Bafidi why don't you tell us a bit about the new F-35's TUrkey is purchasing ?

The same ones Greece is buying my little child.

And never say never. Geopolitics is very fluid. Quite clearly you have a lot to learn.

Can you also tell me about the Rafale or the Typhoon that Greece is buying and Turkey is not.

The last time I ckecked Greece did not enter the consortium of constructing the F 35. This means that Turkey will get 100 planes which it will build under licence before Greece can even buy any. BTW the F-35's incorporate stealth technology.

If the Greeks are so full of themselves why don't shoot down every plane that enters their so called airspace? Face the facts you lossers can't do jack shit so you throw stupid theories that the RoC stands a chance! Turkey has manufactored there own spy sat. that can give a birds eye view from a equivalent to 15m . The next step is to build one that zooms into 3m !

Yeah am not the type that likes to brag and threaten people with Turkey's military strength but you guys just ask for it! In war everybody looses.

So Turkey is a consortium partner. I already new that so thanks very much for the info.

Australia too is a consortium partner. You should come and read our media, because becomming a member of the troubled F35 project is the worst decision that Australia has made. We have coffed up billions and we will not see an aircraft until 2014. The latest info is that Australia is considering scrapping the F35 dud and proceed with the F22 Raptor.

So I am very glad that Greece is not a consortium partner. It is much better buying off the shelf and the HAF would probably be better off purchasing the Raptor which have the edge over the F35 in terms of capability. You can also rest assured that HAF will be purchasing the F35 when this technology is perfected because at the moment this project is one massive headache and Turkey should already see this considering that Australia, and Canada want to pull out and purchase the Raptor. The USA also want to half their order for F35 JSF.

In the mean time, the HAF has short listed the Typhoon and the Rafale, which will be delivered way before Turkey gets any F35 and hence the HAF will have the edge until atleast 2020. Now if Greece proceeds down the path of F22 Raptor by 2020, and Turkey gets a batch of dud F35 which most want to ditch, I wish you all the best of the luck.

http://www.strategypage.com/militaryfor ... 22933.aspx

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/cos ... 82205.html

The best thing the HAF can do is run away from the F35 and proceed with Rafale or Typhoon.

[Viewpoint]

So you have reverted to playing the who can piss higher.