Cyprus-Forum.com

[metecyp]

It was published in a TC newspaper today that Serdar Denktas crossed to the south after Switzerland talks, and he had 'secret' meetings with AKEL and Papadopoulos to discuss the postponement of the referandum. Turkey strongly opposed the idea, so they made a plan. According to the plan, AKEL would say that they wouldn't say "Yes" to the Annan plan unless the referandum is postoponed, similary DP (Serdar Denktas' party) will have a mini-referandum among its party members to ensure a "No" vote to the Annan plan, and in the end Turkey could be pressured into accepting the postponement of the referandum.

And, according to the author, UN and EU are furious about the secret plan. And a high-rank EU official said Greek side would pay if these are true. He supposedly said EU might confirm the two entities on the island by inviting Talat to join the 'Cyprus union with EU' ceremonies [if the Greek side really tried to stop an agreement]

I don't know if these are all true, but it was published in the biggest newspaper in the north by the mostly read author under the title [Cooperation of Turkish and Greek Cypriot status quo supporters]. I just wanted to let you know.

[Piratis]

And they wrote about this "secret meeting" only after the decision of AKEL, right?

Lets not start with the "secret meetings" and "secret agreements" because we will never end.

It is well known that most of these secret and not so secret meetings were done behind our back between the US and Turkey.

Also, our media said yesterday that Turkey warned the US that if EU does not give them the "date" they will stop any kind of implementation of the Annan plan (if accepted).

Personally I do not believe that AKEL would make any such agreements. It is well known that the majority of the AKEL Political Bureau accepted the plan, but this didn't happen in the AKEL Central Committee meeting and therefore AKEL could not say a "Yes" to this plan.
http://www.mpa.gr/article.html?doc_id=447320

Soon DISY will say "NO" also, because although the leadership supports a "YES" the big majority of the party members do not. I doubt DISY leaders will manage to convince their members to vote such thing.
Maybe your newspapers will include DISY in this "secret meeting" after the decision of DiSY?

[rengarenk]

With the GC side pretty much certain to say 'No' regardless of what AKEL say you'd think Denktas and son would campaign for a 'Yes' vote that would atleast result in some kind of improvement for the north.

It just goes to show that they would rather make the situation worse in the north for everyone in order to hold onto what they are rapidly losing. I just hope that the so-called 'nationalist' voters see the true face of these repugnent people and that the referendum goes on as planned and with a 60%+ 'Yes' vote.

As a side note, the PM of Turkey reprimanded Denktas for campaigning against the Annan plan in Turkey telling him to so say what he has to say in Cyprus.

[Piratis]

Finally after several decades the last few months you start to realize that Denctash only concern is how to keep his “Kingdom” in a place where no true democracy exists.

When all the promises of Turkey that after 24th of April the situation for T/C will be greatly improved (they even promised you recognition!), will prove lies I hope you will finally realize that like Denctash Turkey doesn’t really serve your interests either. I hope it will not take you 30 more years to realize it!

[metecyp]

When all the promises of Turkey that after 24th of April the situation for T/C will be greatly improved (they even promised you recognition!), will prove lies I hope you will finally realize that like Denctash Turkey doesn’t really serve your interests either. I hope it will not take you 30 more years to realize it!

Before you ask us to realize certain things, why don't you try to realize that getting the south in EU reprsenting the whole island is NOT going to help you to get rid of the Turkish army, and it's not going to stop people come from Turkey. Annan plan is a real chance where you could decide if the Turkish army stays in Cyprus, or not. You could also put an upper limit on the number of "settlers". Now, you say "no" to Annan plan, and expect your European friends to help you to get rid of Turkish army in the north. How are you going to ask help from Europe when you're the one who rejected what they supported?

And today, Thomas Weston said "TCs not going to pay for GC mistakes" so go and figure.

[rengarenk]

Finally after several decades the last few months you start to realize that Denctash only concern is how to keep his “Kingdom” in a place where no true democracy exists.

You know I do not tell a lie when I say that I was predicting that exact reply from you.

Where did I say I was a Denktas supporter? You really should think more before you reply to my posts.

When all the promises of Turkey that after 24th of April the situation for T/C will be greatly improved (they even promised you recognition!), will prove lies I hope you will finally realize that like Denctash Turkey doesn’t really serve your interests either. I hope it will not take you 30 more years to realize it!

Do you really think I am so naive as to make my judgments solely on what comes out from Turkey? You are perfectly free to continue believing that the situation after the 24th will not improve in the event of a 'Yes' vote from the TCs but everything indicates otherwise. As for recognition, as I said before it's not important, the end of embargos and isolation is.

I'm no fan of the Turkish establishment but you'd have to be blind not to see that the government of Erdogan is nothing like what there has been over the last 30 years.

As for who serves our interests better the GCs or Turkey? You may think it should be the GCs but after the events of 63-74 and the complete lack of any kind ackowledgment by the majority of your populace for the wrongs commited I cant concur with you. However it really is the case of the lesser of two evils here.

[Piratis]

Where did I say I was a Denktas supporter? You really should think more before you reply to my posts.

When I said "you" I didn’t mean of course a member of this forum. I mean Turkish Cypriots as a whole. You have to admit that some years ago Denctash had A LOT more support from T/C than he has now.

I believe you are not totally isolated. There are foreigners that buy property there, foreign students etc. Maybe after the 24th you will see some improvements, but 90% of these improvements will be because Turkish Cypriots will be considered citizens of Republic of Cyprus and you will get some help from EU. If you expect that something great will happen for T/C just because we said “No” I believe you will be disappointed.

You are wrong about the “complete lack of any kind of acknowledgment”. We did acknowledge our mistakes. In 1960 many Greek Cypriots thought that Republic of Cyprus was just the first step before union with Greece. And indeed many Greek Cypriots fueled by nationalism by the British (who fueled T/C nationalism also) did some very bad things.

Now is not the 60’s or 70’s. And I think the same way we are willing to forgive you for cooperating with Turkey for the invasion that brought so many deaths, missing people, loss of properties etc, you should forgive us too for the mistakes before 1974.
It is for the interest of both communities to do that, and I am very sorry you can’t realize it and you prefer to just stay a military base of Turkey instead of joining us in an independent state, part of EU in which you will have your own federal state.

[rengarenk]

You have to admit that some years ago Denctash had A LOT more support from T/C than he has now.

Indeed he did, but his support can not really just be put down to his handling of the cyprus problem. Up until the mid 90's he had a nice little nepotistic system going until the embargos kicked in and then latter the economic problems of Turkey. A large number of TC emigrated (which seemed to be mainly his supporters) because of economic problems, so he brings in more settlers to vote for him. However now days he cant even rely on the settler vote and new young voters see him as a senile old man who shouts and sloganizes at every opertunatey.

I believe you are not totally isolated. There are foreigners that buy property there, foreign students etc. Maybe after the 24th you will see some improvements, but 90% of these improvements will be because Turkish Cypriots will be considered citizens of Republic of Cyprus and you will get some help from EU.

Of course there is no total isolation, that would be impossible. However I am talking in the politcal and economic sense where we are very issolated. I think the help offered by the EU will be minimal, indeed the aid offered by the EU if we joined with the GC over a 3 year period is around the same amount as what Turkey sends in one year. I dont believe the EU to be some magic wand that will fix all our problems like many do in Turkey.

If you expect that something great will happen for T/C just because we said “No” I believe you will be disappointed.

Well like I said on this count on numerous times, I cant agree with you here. Not due to some kind of self belief or what Turkey says but simply because of statements made by high level officals and that because if you look over the last ten years or so what we have here is a fait accompli.

First we had the embargos, the Cyprus clause in the Customs Union agreement with Turkey, the Helksinki declarations, the Annan plan and finally EU membership for the GC side. This all favoured the GC side and I could see the TC slowly being put into a corner and was n't expecting the final Annan plan to address the TC sides concerns.

Now if the fait accompli had been successful there would be a 'Yes' on both sides (with reluctance from the TC side) and the problem would be solved.

However everything now has been turned upside down and the GC side who has been calling on the UN, EU and US to put pressure on the TC and Turkey for years find themselves under pressure by the very same people.

Do you think that after saying 'No' to the plan the UN, EU and US are going to have an appetite to deal with Cyprus again? Do you think when representatives of the above tell you this is a fair compromise and that it is this solution or no solution they are lying to you?

Granted you will become an EU member on May the 1st. Do you think that you will be able to veto Turkey getting a date if the poweful EU countries want to give it one? Do you think they will support you extracting concessions after they have said Annan V is a fair compromise? Do you think the GC's representing 650,000 people will succeed where Poland with 40M people failed?

You are wrong about the “complete lack of any kind of acknowledgment”. We did acknowledge our mistakes. In 1960 many Greek Cypriots thought that Republic of Cyprus was just the first step before union with Greece. And indeed many Greek Cypriots fueled by nationalism by the British (who fueled T/C nationalism also) did some very bad things.

You missed the part where I said "the majority of people", there are lots of people who ackowledge the hardships of 63-74 but they are in the minority from my experience.

Now is not the 60’s or 70’s. And I think the same way we are willing to forgive you for cooperating with Turkey for the invasion that brought so many deaths, missing people, loss of properties etc, you should forgive us too for the mistakes before 1974.

Why should we need forgiveness? Can you not see that after the 63-74 period and the coup it would be natural for the TC to support the incomming Turkish army? For example when my uncle and other men from my village are rounded up and detained to be shot and only escape death because of the Turkish army is on it's way should we feel guilty?

Let me say that I do believe the GC paid a heavy price for the events of 63-74 however this is nearly always the case for example Kosovo. It's very unfortunate but I have yet to see a complete reconciliation on both sides even with the ability to travel to the other side. The Annan plan however does forsee this with it's commity.

It is for the interest of both communities to do that, and I am very sorry you can’t realize it and you prefer to just stay a military base of Turkey instead of joining us in an independent state, part of EU in which you will have your own federal state.

For your information I support Annan V and that's why I encourage a 'Yes' vote. A double 'Yes' for me is better than a 'Yes'/'No'. I agree 40,000 troups on the island is not good for the TC, however I have no problem with 650 and would have no problem with 3,000 or 6,000 either. One thing you have to realize the TC fear the GC and will continue to do so for atleast a generation and that is why we want protection for our identity within a federal arrangement.

[Piratis]

You missed the part where I said "the majority of people", there are lots of people who ackowledge the hardships of 63-74 but they are in the minority from my experience.

I don't know what kind of experience you had but you are wrong about the "majority" part.

Why should we need forgiveness? Can you not see that after the 63-74 period and the coup it would be natural for the TC to support the incoming Turkish army?

I could accept what you said if Turkey came, restored the order and then left. Even us would celebrate that day and be grateful if such thing happened. But what happened was a full scale invasion, killing of innocent people, missing people and 200.000 refugees. After 30 years Turkish army still occupies Cyprus and there is no excuse for that.
So yes, the same way you say that we should ask for forgiveness, you should ask too.

TC fear the GC

I don't believe this is true. T/C have no problem with G/C that go there, and actually they are very happy if they go to spend their money at their restaurants, casinos etc. Also many T/C come here every day. I was visiting a relative at a hospital some days ago and I saw many T/C there. The only way I know they were T/C is that they were speaking Turkish, loudly, without any problem. They really didn't seem scared to me, and why should they be?

if G/C can visit the occupied areas with 40.000 Turkish troops and they are not scared, why T/C should be scared living in a Federal state with us that will secure all their rights? Are G/C so much more brave than T/C? I don't think so. I think you are just using this "fear" as an excuse.

A good solution in Cyprus would benefit both sides, especially T/C. E.g. if less settlers stay this means more financial support and more benefits for the real T/C. A united Cyprus economy can potentially be very strong and benefit all of us.

Granted you will become an EU member on May the 1st. Do you think that you will be able to veto Turkey getting a date if the powerful EU countries want to give it one? Do you think they will support you extracting concessions after they have said Annan V is a fair compromise? Do you think the GC's representing 650,000 people will succeed where Poland with 40M people failed?

Turkey might get a "date" and we will not veto it. But thats the most Turkey will get. Europeans do not want Turkey in EU, so Turkey will never be a full member.

[metecyp]

Turkey might get a "date" and we will not veto it. But thats the most Turkey will get. Europeans do not want Turkey in EU, so Turkey will never be a full member.

Since Turkey is never going to enter EU, then nobody will ask Turkey to remove its troops and settlers from the north since Turkey won't be part of EU, and "invading" an EU island is not going to be less OK than today.

I gather from what you just said that you don't intend to use EU as a catalyst for "return of all refugees, removal of Turkish troops, return of settlers" since a Turkey outside EU is capable of maintaining the status quo as it is today, it is only after Turkey seriously intends to be part of EU, and EU seriously wants Turkey to join that Turkey will consider removing its troops in Cyprus, etc.

Acceptance of Greek side into EU is only going to help for the permanent division of the island, given that Turkey will never be part of EU. Therefore, your enthusiasm for EU is actually nothing but celebration of the division of the island. Am I wrong?