Cyprus-Forum.com

[Paphitis]

It is difficult for non-Turkish people to understand the Army's place in the heart of the Turkish people...Turkey itself is the creation of the Military led by one man,who is treated as semi-God...To criticise the army is to criticise Ataturk,and that is sacrilege for 99% of the Turkish people...

Please stop this war talk...And the talk which ends with the threat to pulverise the entire North of our Country...That is not the way to make friends and influence people,in this day and age...Only a nuclear war can bring Turkey to her knees,and as a member of NATO I'd say she is well protected from that eventuality...
War mongering only helps drive the partition nails further into our homeland's bossom...If that is the motivation,there are easier ways to achieve it than a senseless and suicidal conflict from which Cyprus will come out as the biggest loser...

At the moment both sides are negotiating. Therefore, lets just wait and see what happens. Personally, I beleive there is as much chance of a negotiated settlement as Paris Hilton still being a virgin.

After all avenues for a peacefull settlement are exhausted, then military action can never be ruled out. The borders of Cyprus end at Kyrenia and Apostolos Andreas and not at Ayios Dometios or Ledra. Cyprus would be well within it's rights in attempting to liberate it's own territory from occupation. The only thing that is required is the perfect timing and opportunism. And Turkey is certainly not undefeatable. This is especially true if Cyprus was to receive assistance from other third parties with the ever changing geopolitical landscape.

I am no war monger. And I would not wish it upon Cyprus and it's people. However, there is only so much that can be tolerated. And having one's country under occupation, can never be tolerated for ever.

Bir, I know you are a very nice man, and I take my hat off to you for being a very intelligent, fair, and honorable man. I think you can understand that we as Cypriots can not tolerate the current impasse and the recalcitrance of Turkey and it's numerous violations of international law, human rights and war crimes which continue today. Cypriots have their dignity and honor, and this is worth fighting for.

Thank you for your kind words,Paphitis...I know that you are a very decent man,and it is your desperation and frustration which make you consider war as a possibility. As far as I am concerned that option would only intensify and prolong the suffering...Turkey is not in Cyprus just for her own interests...If we consider the events which brought the occupation about we see that Turkey is primarily looking after NATO's interests. I cannot believe that The British could not have totally destroyed the EOKA back in 1955,had they wanted to...EOKA served the purpose of fueling Greek nationalism,as TMT which was also sanctioned by the British fueled Turkish nationalism...Cypriots had to be divided by this virus,to stop them from becoming one people,one nation,lest they chose to turn to communism with AKEL leading the way...There is no doubt about this,Turkey is in Cyprus with the blessing of the USA and most Western European powers. The solution to our problem lies in making all Cypriots see how we were played against each other,and became pawns in the international cold war at the time. Once most people realise this,and wake up from their nationalism stupor,the solution will follow smoothly...Cyprus is the homeland of all Cypriots...We must love every inch of it...And we must never talk about fighting each other again...We must unite as one people and make the world realise there is no longer any need for Turkey to be in Cyprus...But we have to convince the TCs first of all...And we can't do it by threats of annihilation...

We, the TCs, are as one with the GCs, as a resident of Edirne is one with a resident of Thessaloniki – historically, ethnically, sociologically, culturally, linguistically, and religiously. Denying this is either illiteracy or indecency and trying to enforce otherwise is fatal on all levels.

Greek nationalism in Cyprus was well and alive way before EOKA was officially launched. Nationalism, be it GC or TC, was not fueled by EOKA or TMT. Nationalism is a by-product of industrialization and it was effectively spread around the world with the outbreak of the French Revolution in 1789. As a consequence, almost all major Empires eventually came to an end and numerous countries got established along (essentially) ethnic lines. The borders of these newly developed countries, with very minor exceptions, have been drawn as a consequence of some armed conflict along the way. The fact of the matter is that today these borders are the recognized borders of dozens of U.N. member countries – including Greece and Turkey. The TCs and GCs came to brink of this conflict numerous times because the situation was not different for them from a historical, sociological, cultural and ethnic standpoint. However, instead of carrying out the battle we made an agreement - an agreement that allowed each side to self-govern its affairs without the other interfering, an agreement that barred any and all union with the motherlands. A careful observer will come to the indisputable conclusion that this agreement was in essence what the member countries of the EU have among themselves today, but with the only major difference in that there were no borders controlled per community. The GC side wanted to change this agreement to their advantage. We refused and the rest is history.

In summary, there is no legitimate historical, moral, democratic or humane argument that can justify the TCs to hand over their self-governing rights over to the GCs in any way on this island. Because we have refused to hand these rights over to the GCs we have been attacked and enclaved for years. Union can not and will not mean becoming a part of some synthetically generated identity that is numerically dominated by peoples of Hellenic ambitions, life-style, policies, culture, religion, and language. That is not democracy, that is tyranny and it is not much different than asking Greece to unite with Turkey so that the Aegean can become a more democratic place. As acknowledged by the U.N.: there are TWO COMMUNITIES in Cyprus, one GC and the other TC. Union can only be realized when the GCs accept (by heart) that they are not the nation but only a COMMUNITY of Cyprus.

The trouble is,Murataga,if we insist on keeping the division along ethnic lines,we will set in concrete the animosity which exist today between the two communities.... Not to mention the suspicion,bitterness,and the sense of injustice...This is not a good recipe for the future.

And I believe acknowledging, respecting and embracing our differences rather than down-playing them, and allowing each community to govern itself rather than placing one under the other`s majority rule is the recipe for justice, peace and prosperity in Cyprus.

The coming generations will pay the price for our stubbornness to let go of our ethnic affiliations,and our blind nationalism.I am totally convinced we need to get past all this ethnic fixation,majority/minority fears,divisions and double standards,and reach the point where what really matters is our commitment to Cyprus as a whole,and the struggle to build one nation of Cypriots,albeit multilingual and multireligious....

The pathway to peace in Cyprus can not and should not be a synthetic debilitation of our self-identity. I am a Turkish Cypriot and I have the right to self-governance as a Turkish Cypriot. No one has the right to ask me to give it up under any circumstances, just as no one has the right to ask the Greeks of Greece to become Aegeans first and practice majority rule in the Aegean region. Forming a peaceful, diverse, multilingual, multireligious Cyprus needs no effort of synthetic nation building from anyone. To the contrary, the effort of forming a peaceful, diverse, multilingual, multireligious Cyprus specifically needs to be protected from the tyranic effort of synthetic nation building.

This won't happen in one step of course,i understand that...But the interm solution must leave the road open for real reunification...Then with time,goodwill,and lot of effort,we will get there...I promise to come back and lend a hand...

Bir let me save you the trouble: We will not give up our rights to make foreigners feel better and we will not give up our rights to have the GCs make peace with us.

Aegeans?????? What the hell are you talking about?

Have you been smoking the funny weed or something?

[shahmaran]

"As for the other TCs that where ethnically cleansed by Turkey, they are more than welcome to come back. We will welcome them with open arms as the citizens of our country."

You are a joke...

You are the joke for not having 1 reconcilliatory bone in your body.

Why can you not even try to reconcile with your countrymen and women the GCs? Do you have children? Because if you do, you should know that the youth today are very liberal, less religious, less nationalistic and less racist and even non homophobic. When I look at the youth, I sometimes think how much better this world will be when they grow and enter into power. A better world will be achieved when the old, anachronistic, nationalistic, and racist amongst us all pass on and are replaced by superior humans.

Well not being very old myself i can safely say that many GC and TC parents have done a great job making sure their crap lives on, so dont be so optimistic.

I have no problem with the GC's as people, in fact i was just trying to point out the fact that ALL people are 1 as opposed to the claims here about who is Cypriot and who is not.

Its the racist politics that worries me, i do not have to aggree with it in order to like GC people or any other people as a matter of fact.

I disagree. Most parents would teach their children about love, compassion, honesty, loyalty, manners and respect. All sound qualities that parents would like to see their children develop.

And no parent would want to see their children being consumed by hatred, and racism. Nor would they like to see their children suffering under inter communal violence or war. It is for them that we owe it to ensure that these events do not occur again. It is for them that we owe it as Cypriots to reconcile and unify our country. Anything else would be a failure and would condemn them to further bloodshed down the track.

Ok my friend, if this place you "visited and spoke to a lot of people" is Cyprus then maybe i live on a different island, you seem to know it all.

No hate has been hindering in peoples minds as you say yet look where we are now, but you being you would blame all that on Turkey as well, just like the reason why TC's apparently emigrated because.

[Paphitis]

"As for the other TCs that where ethnically cleansed by Turkey, they are more than welcome to come back. We will welcome them with open arms as the citizens of our country."

You are a joke...

You are the joke for not having 1 reconcilliatory bone in your body.

Why can you not even try to reconcile with your countrymen and women the GCs? Do you have children? Because if you do, you should know that the youth today are very liberal, less religious, less nationalistic and less racist and even non homophobic. When I look at the youth, I sometimes think how much better this world will be when they grow and enter into power. A better world will be achieved when the old, anachronistic, nationalistic, and racist amongst us all pass on and are replaced by superior humans.

Well not being very old myself i can safely say that many GC and TC parents have done a great job making sure their crap lives on, so dont be so optimistic.

I have no problem with the GC's as people, in fact i was just trying to point out the fact that ALL people are 1 as opposed to the claims here about who is Cypriot and who is not.

Its the racist politics that worries me, i do not have to aggree with it in order to like GC people or any other people as a matter of fact.

I disagree. Most parents would teach their children about love, compassion, honesty, loyalty, manners and respect. All sound qualities that parents would like to see their children develop.

And no parent would want to see their children being consumed by hatred, and racism. Nor would they like to see their children suffering under inter communal violence or war. It is for them that we owe it to ensure that these events do not occur again. It is for them that we owe it as Cypriots to reconcile and unify our country. Anything else would be a failure and would condemn them to further bloodshed down the track.

Ok my friend, if this place you "visited and spoke to a lot of people" is Cyprus then maybe i live on a different island, you seem to know it all.

No hate has been hindering in peoples minds as you say yet look where we are now, but you being you would blame all that on Turkey as well, just like the reason why TC's apparently emigrated because.

Yes we are here because of the mistakes of the past. The landscape today is ever evolving. Much less hatred and a lot less to worry about.

There is no need for the present day injustices to continue. Time to move on. I do not want to fight you any more you want to fight me.

I think it is time for Turkey to go. Cyprus is for the Cypriots and not the Greeks or Turks.

And Enosis is a dead donkey as well. So I do not understand what the hell you guys are so worried about. If it is about the 500 or so TC that were unfortunately killed, well I apologise for that, but who is apologising for the 10,000 or so GCs that were killed by Turkey?

[BirKibrisli]

The pathway to peace in Cyprus can not and should not be a synthetic debilitation of our self-identity. I am a Turkish Cypriot and I have the right to self-governance as a Turkish Cypriot. No one has the right to ask me to give it up under any circumstances, just as no one has the right to ask the Greeks of Greece to become Aegeans first and practice majority rule in the Aegean region. Forming a peaceful, diverse, multilingual, multireligious Cyprus needs no effort of synthetic nation building from anyone. To the contrary, the effort of forming a peaceful, diverse, multilingual, multireligious Cyprus specifically needs to be protected from the tyranic effort of synthetic nation building.

I must've missed it somehow,Murataga...What gave us the right to self governance???? The only rights we have are the ones under the 60 constitution which we are not demanding....If you can come up with something sensible I will be converted to your way of thinking,I promise...

[Viewpoint]

The pathway to peace in Cyprus can not and should not be a synthetic debilitation of our self-identity. I am a Turkish Cypriot and I have the right to self-governance as a Turkish Cypriot. No one has the right to ask me to give it up under any circumstances, just as no one has the right to ask the Greeks of Greece to become Aegeans first and practice majority rule in the Aegean region. Forming a peaceful, diverse, multilingual, multireligious Cyprus needs no effort of synthetic nation building from anyone. To the contrary, the effort of forming a peaceful, diverse, multilingual, multireligious Cyprus specifically needs to be protected from the tyranic effort of synthetic nation building.

I must've missed it somehow,Murataga...What gave us the right to self governance???? The only rights we have are the ones under the 60 constitution which we are not demanding....If you can come up with something sensible I will be converted to your way of thinking,I promise...

Why cant we have the right to say no on sensitive issues when the majority try to enforce a decision upon us that would effect us more negatively. What do they fear and is it because they have hidden agendas that they still wish to have a free hand to do whatever they wish. According the the 1960 agreements we have community rights to say no when necessary we will not give this up.

[BirKibrisli]

The pathway to peace in Cyprus can not and should not be a synthetic debilitation of our self-identity. I am a Turkish Cypriot and I have the right to self-governance as a Turkish Cypriot. No one has the right to ask me to give it up under any circumstances, just as no one has the right to ask the Greeks of Greece to become Aegeans first and practice majority rule in the Aegean region. Forming a peaceful, diverse, multilingual, multireligious Cyprus needs no effort of synthetic nation building from anyone. To the contrary, the effort of forming a peaceful, diverse, multilingual, multireligious Cyprus specifically needs to be protected from the tyranic effort of synthetic nation building.

I must've missed it somehow,Murataga...What gave us the right to self governance???? The only rights we have are the ones under the 60 constitution which we are not demanding....If you can come up with something sensible I will be converted to your way of thinking,I promise...

Why cant we have the right to say no on sensitive issues when the majority try to enforce a decision upon us that would effect us more negatively. What do they fear and is it because they have hidden agendas that they still wish to have a free hand to do whatever they wish. According the the 1960 agreements we have community rights to say no when necessary we will not give this up.

You are right,VP...About the 1960 agreements....Those are the only rights we have..Why are we not demanding them back???? We have no right to set up our own state and insist on self-governance,as far as I can see it....Why are we not demanding to return to the ROC?????? Any sensible answers??? Please don't say "Because they would not have us back!" That is beside the point....What is our motivation????

[Viewpoint]

The pathway to peace in Cyprus can not and should not be a synthetic debilitation of our self-identity. I am a Turkish Cypriot and I have the right to self-governance as a Turkish Cypriot. No one has the right to ask me to give it up under any circumstances, just as no one has the right to ask the Greeks of Greece to become Aegeans first and practice majority rule in the Aegean region. Forming a peaceful, diverse, multilingual, multireligious Cyprus needs no effort of synthetic nation building from anyone. To the contrary, the effort of forming a peaceful, diverse, multilingual, multireligious Cyprus specifically needs to be protected from the tyranic effort of synthetic nation building.

I must've missed it somehow,Murataga...What gave us the right to self governance???? The only rights we have are the ones under the 60 constitution which we are not demanding....If you can come up with something sensible I will be converted to your way of thinking,I promise...

Why cant we have the right to say no on sensitive issues when the majority try to enforce a decision upon us that would effect us more negatively. What do they fear and is it because they have hidden agendas that they still wish to have a free hand to do whatever they wish. According the the 1960 agreements we have community rights to say no when necessary we will not give this up.

You are right,VP...About the 1960 agreements....Those are the only rights we have..Why are we not demanding them back???? We have no right to set up our own state and insist on self-governance,as far as I can see it....Why are we not demanding to return to the ROC?????? Any sensible answers??? Please don't say "Because they would not have us back!" That is beside the point....What is our motivation????

1974 changed everything, nothing will ever be the same we cannot go backwards but only forwards.

[Nikitas]

Bir wrote above:

"But I am certain of one thing....NOTHING will shake the trust and respect the Turkish people have in their army....No amount of misfortune will result in the Army losing its influence on Turkish society"

Isn't this the whole problem with Turkey? The special position and status of the army which is in total contradiction with the values and practices of the west, which Turkey says it wants to join?

The military make fools of themselves all the time, but the self imposed blindness in Turkish media does not see the comic side of things. For instance: every time there is an accident in the Aegean and a Greek plane goes down the Turkish pilot involved gets a medal. OK, thus far it is understandable. But what happens when a Turkish plane goes down or when one of their ships gets stuck in the sand, or when two ships collide with one another while chasing a Greek fisherman? Silence....... No one dares challenge the military about their blunders. This silence is symptomatic of the perverted manner with which the public regards the military.

As for the invincibility of this or any army, I am not convinced. It has suffered its share of defeats, most of them by smaller armies. The invincibility myth is useful in many armies, but eventually facts come to overturn the myth, like we saw recently in Lebanon when the best equipped and trained army outside the USA got bashed by some well organized Arabs, thus overturning the other myth, that of the Arabs being nothing but a mob.

Naturally no one wants war, because it will put everyone involved back a generation. But we cannot plan peace under the treat of some supposedly invincible fat cats who use conscripts in their houses as butlers, gardereners and chauffeurs.

[BirKibrisli]

Bir wrote above:

"But I am certain of one thing....NOTHING will shake the trust and respect the Turkish people have in their army....No amount of misfortune will result in the Army losing its influence on Turkish society"

Isn't this the whole problem with Turkey? The special position and status of the army which is in total contradiction with the values and practices of the west, which Turkey says it wants to join?

The military make fools of themselves all the time, but the self imposed blindness in Turkish media does not see the comic side of things. For instance: every time there is an accident in the Aegean and a Greek plane goes down the Turkish pilot involved gets a medal. OK, thus far it is understandable. But what happens when a Turkish plane goes down or when one of their ships gets stuck in the sand, or when two ships collide with one another while chasing a Greek fisherman? Silence....... No one dares challenge the military about their blunders. This silence is symptomatic of the perverted manner with which the public regards the military.

As for the invincibility of this or any army, I am not convinced. It has suffered its share of defeats, most of them by smaller armies. The invincibility myth is useful in many armies, but eventually facts come to overturn the myth, like we saw recently in Lebanon when the best equipped and trained army outside the USA got bashed by some well organized Arabs, thus overturning the other myth, that of the Arabs being nothing but a mob.

Naturally no one wants war, because it will put everyone involved back a generation. But we cannot plan peace under the treat of some supposedly invincible fat cats who use conscripts in their houses as butlers, gardereners and chauffeurs.

The special position of the Turkish Army is certainly a mixed blessing,Nikitas. (If blessing is the right word here)
If the Military pulled back to a merely national security role,and let real democracy take hold,the result would not be real democracy but,at best,an authoritative,pseudo-democracy,heavily influenced by islamic sheriat laws and customs...It would be even less acceptable or suitable for EU inclusion.The fundamental problem in Turkey is the habit of the politicians to behave like little despots when they come to power,and the inability of those around them or the voters to challenge their authority. The servile Ottoman mentality,and artificially inflated respect for authority make it almost impossible for real democracy to take root in Turkey. The most cherished dream of the average Turkish woman is still to marry a military officer!!!

I do not believe that the Turkish Army is invincible...But the fanatical patriotism present in most Turkish people,and their preparedness to throw their lot in with their Army is what makes Turkey invincible,in my humble opinion...One can beat the Turkish army,perhaps,but then one will have to deal with the people of Turkey...

I do not subscribe to the belief that One must prepare for war if One wants peace... One should plan for peace if One wants peace...And go after it with single-mindedness and fervor...Because if you plan for war,that is what you will get...And war has not solved anyone's problems ever,only created new,more complicated ones...

[Murataga]

The pathway to peace in Cyprus can not and should not be a synthetic debilitation of our self-identity. I am a Turkish Cypriot and I have the right to self-governance as a Turkish Cypriot. No one has the right to ask me to give it up under any circumstances, just as no one has the right to ask the Greeks of Greece to become Aegeans first and practice majority rule in the Aegean region. Forming a peaceful, diverse, multilingual, multireligious Cyprus needs no effort of synthetic nation building from anyone. To the contrary, the effort of forming a peaceful, diverse, multilingual, multireligious Cyprus specifically needs to be protected from the tyranic effort of synthetic nation building.

I must've missed it somehow,Murataga...What gave us the right to self governance????

The same thing that gave it to Greece. Perhaps you have missed another important segment of what I wrote too that elaborates on this:

Nationalism is a by-product of industrialization and it was effectively spread around the world with the outbreak of the French Revolution in 1789. As a consequence, almost all major Empires eventually came to an end and numerous countries got established along (essentially) ethnic lines. The borders of these newly developed countries, with very minor exceptions, have been drawn as a consequence of some armed conflict along the way. The fact of the matter is that today these borders are the recognized borders of dozens of U.N. member countries – including Greece and Turkey. The TCs and GCs came to brink of this conflict numerous times because the situation was not different for them from a historical, sociological, cultural and ethnic standpoint. However, instead of carrying out the battle we made an agreement - an agreement that allowed each side to self-govern its affairs without the other interfering, an agreement that barred any and all union with the motherlands. A careful observer will come to the indisputable conclusion that this agreement was in essence what the member countries of the EU have among themselves today, but with the only major difference in that there were no borders controlled per community.

[The only rights we have are the ones under the 60 constitution which we are not demanding....

Firstly, I think you are confusing the source with the by-product. The fact that we were one of the co-signatories to the State and the fact that the Constitution we signed in to gave us the right to self-govern our communal affiars is the by-product of the existence and recognition of our right, NOT the the other way around. Because we are and were recognized as ONE of the TWO communities of this island with the right to handle its own affairs did the 60 Constitution came about as it was.

Secondly, we have demanded the implementation of the 60s Constitution but it was denied to us. Currently, the RoC is run by a "doctrine of necessity" and unless we accepted some critical alterations made to the original constitution within the framework of this "doctrine" we were not allowed to attend the government.

For example, the negotiations on the possible re-employment of TC civil servants in Nicosia and their subsequent financial compensation ended in deadlock, because it was considered by GC officials ‘to be a highly political matter linked closely with the final settlement of the Cyprus question’ (see UN Doc. S/5950 Para.106). Furthermore, GC officials rejected the demands of TC MP’s to return to the House of Representatives ‘unless agreement was reached for the provision in Article 78 of the Constitution concerning separate majorities had been abolished and every member of the House would have one vote for all decisions’ (UN Doc. S/6569, Paras. 7, 8/b-d and 9). Upon the rejection of the TC MPs to these unconstitutional alterations Clerides officially declared that the TC MPs 'had no legal standing anymore in the House'. Because the TCs refused these changes they were charged with 'self-imposed isolation'.

From this time until 1967, Makarios had consistently refused to meet the TC leaders unless they agreed to discuss minority rights in Cyprus. The prolongation of the Cyprus dispute under the dire circumstances in which the TC community had to live in gave the GC an unprecedented economic prosperity and their leadership overwhelming self-confidence. They would simply not accept anything short of an agreement that effectively lead to ENOSIS. Here is a confession that came years later from their leaders to this effect:

"I returned to Cyprus and reported to Makarios on my talks in Athens. I asked if, after assurances given by Papadhopoulos, he would agree for article 185 of the 1960 Constitution, which prohibited both ENOSIS and partition, to be incorporated in the new constitution. He raised his arms, which were resting on his desk and said: "You see, Glafcos, these hands, they can cut them off, but I will NOT sign again any Constitution excluding ENOSIS."

From "My Deposition" by Glafcos Clerides
(Alithia Publishing, 1990, Volume III, p. 270)

Thirdly, neither community wants a return to the 60s constitution. All parties concerned have acknowledged the principle of finding a solution that is BI-ZONAL, BI-COMMUNAL with the recognition of the political equality of the two communities as defined per U.N. The real question is if the GCs will ever accept by heart to become a COMMUNITY of Cyprus once again and give up their current unconstitutional status as the nation.

If you can come up with something sensible I will be converted to your way of thinking,I promise...

I am not in the business of converting anyone to anything; you are always entitled to your opinion. In fact, I like talking about the Cyprus problem more with people I do not agree than those I agree.