Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz]

Erol, once more, I feel the need to remind to you that what you described above is not what the official TC side professes. I wish it was, unfortunately it isn’t! This is more or less (what you described above) what the official GC side is hopping to convince the TC to agree on this single issue, and this is unlike what you (TCs) are made to believe about Papadopoullos.

I am not the negotiator for the TC community so I can only speak for myself. However how can you know what our position is until you agree to meet and discuss the issue with Talat? I do not know what the GC position is in detail because TP has refused to tell me, or you or the UN what it is. The reason why we view TP with suspicion is because of his past and because of stsments he has made recently that are so far from from any relality it makes you wonder about his sanity let alone his sincerity. I sincerely hope that my fears about TP and what his real objectives are are unfounded and quickly proven to be so and that he enters into genuine and sincere neogtiation with Talat on the basis outlined above ASAP.

[salonica]

Enrolz

have to go now. will love to talk with you later on

just a line

if you really beleive that The GC are waiting with their guns loaded for TC there is no need to have this discussion here. It is an excuse to promote the pseudostate. It is partition your target and no unification.
I believe Kifeas put it correctly. Since there is no trust, not even in the EU, the rivarly will continue.

[MicAtCyp]

THIS IS TREASON, if I am permitted to use the kind of kretin phraseology many people so easily resort to in this forum.

This treason to which you refer did not happen and never will.It is just in your bad dreams. Your own treason however happens every day!

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Bananiot could you kindly answer a question for me, it may be difficult but you said that there are many GCs that think like you, would this be 25% or do you feel there are more but are frightened and detered from speaking up???? like many GCs didnt speak out during the run up to the referendum due to the possibility of retribution from the NO supporters.

Viewpoint don't compare the free areas with the occupied.Here nobody is afraid to speak. You will find all the HANDFUL of Bananiots concentrated in the English newspapers that you read. How many are they? A handful of persons, not even a fraction of a percentage unit.The 24% who voted yes has almost nothing in common with them.

We are a partner not a minority(only a minority numerically),

Did you evolve to a partner in a democratic process through history? No! See my friend democracies, and political systems and constitutions are procedures that may take 100s of years to mature and come up to something.
The ones who set you a partner were the previous conquerors/collonists. And to achieve their imposed decision they used blackmail. Such actions are by themselves illegal. Unfortunately you were assigned a partner and you saw the results of that assignment with your own eyes.

we are not out to get you or cause problems in a new united Cyprus we to want it to work so that we can all get on with the rest of our lives without the Cyprus issue looming over us.

What happened to your partition thesis Viewpoint?

[erolz]

Enrolz

have to go now. will love to talk with you later on

I look forward to it

if you really beleive that The GC are waiting with their guns loaded for TC there is no need to have this discussion here. It is an excuse to promote the pseudostate. It is partition your target and no unification.
I believe Kifeas put it correctly. Since there is no trust, not even in the EU, the rivarly will continue.

My fear is not that GC are waiting with their guns to kill all TC, though I do have concerns that violence may once again break out amongst GC and TC. I hope that this never happens again but believe there is some risk of such. My concern is that GC will continue to try and achieve a 'unitary' state (ie one where GC alone control the future of the island) that they have persued ever since 1960 and that having achiebed this they will persue purely GC aims for Cyprus and seek to build a Greek nation in Cyprus and not a Cypriot nation made up of the two partner communites. In the past we had protections in law and consitituion and they failed to protect our rights. We had a UN armed force and they failed to protect our rights and often our lives. This is why I retain a degree of skeptisim that the EU could or would protect the TC community in Cyprus against either political attacks against us of physical.

[salonica]

Erolz to answer some of your fears:

<If in a unitary state the GC community decided to make Greek the sole language of the state, what proptection would the EU offer the TC against such a move in a unitary RoC.>

In Every event that is organised by the RoC the Turkish language along with the Greek and English is present. In coins, notes everywhere there is the Turkish language. It is not a substantial fear.


<If GC decided to join politicaly with Greece (enosis) what protection would the EU provide the TC against such a move in your unitary state. The answer is none>

I told you before, don’t think in 60s terms. There is no way for enosis these days. The concept of the word has lost its meaning. In Todays world no need for that. To put it differently since I am sure you o not trust the 2 countries intentions, I should tell you that it is not in their interests something like that.

< If a GC majority decided to restrict foreign investment from non EU countries (to the determient of TC businesses vs GC businesses) what protections would the EU provide against such in your unitary state. The answer is none.>

This can’t be done. There are European courts to solve any potential mistreat.


< If GC extermists started to exact revenge against TC for the events of 74 do you really think the EU would send EU troops to stop them? They would not. >

I am not excluding fights on a personal level especially in the beginning. There will always be those who have another opinion. Yet, nothing can be done in large scales as I understand this is your fear. Remember that already many TC live in the free part of the island.



<Was the modern Turkish state founded on the principal of equality of the Kurdish and Turkish communities in Tukey. No it was not. So to argue their sitiuation is the same as that of TC in Cyprus is meaningless.>

So, if I understand correctly, the Kurds are not allowed to have the veto power, rotation in presidency etc simply because in the foundation of the Republic of Turkey no such right was granted although you reckon that it was illegal since they represent a large number of the total population and they were living in that land since ever? Let Turkey fixed that then!! If it is unjust as I assume you believe, let Turkey fix this.
Let’s not kidding ourselves. This thing can’t be done cause it is irrational. You still want to apply this thing in Cyprus cause someone else who is also getting advantage of this, thought to propose it and what the heck!!!!!



<You can reject any kind of federal solution. You can continue to try and legitimise the theft of TC rights from 63. That is your choice but as long as you continue to do so do not expect a solution any time soon.>


Erolz, I really do believe that a solution will be found within this decade. Don’t ask me the sequence of events I have in mind to justify my belief, cause it is quite ugly.




<You talked of 'prinicpals' of democracy and how it was just a matter of mathematics. When that argument was defeated you retreat to another argument, that equalilty of federal componenet states is fair and democratic when there is more than two states but not when there is two. This is not more convincing an argument to me than the previous one>

I am afraid I still insist that it is all about mathematics or even simpler arithmetics. No state that the federation applies is similar to Cyprus characteristics, and yes when we talk about Unions like EU and UN we have to have in mind that we are talking about different states.

I am telling you again, I believe that partition is your goal and not unification.

Once again, you are playing Ankaras game. Until when is the question to me

[erolz]

In Every event that is organised by the RoC the Turkish language along with the Greek and English is present. In coins, notes everywhere there is the Turkish language. It is not a substantial fear.

That was just an example. Maybe not a very probable one but the fact is GC have always persued GC intertests in Cyprus and have made no effort to build a Cypriot national indentity (as opposed to a GC national indentity). I fear that they still wish to build a Greek Cyprus and not a Cypriot one and if necessary force this on TC wheater they accept and agree to to it or not.

I told you before, don’t think in 60s terms. There is no way for enosis these days. The concept of the word has lost its meaning. In Todays world no need for that. To put it differently since I am sure you o not trust the 2 countries intentions, I should tell you that it is not in their interests something like that.

See above.

< If a GC majority decided to restrict foreign investment from non EU countries (to the determient of TC businesses vs GC businesses) what protections would the EU provide against such in your unitary state. The answer is none.>

This can’t be done. There are European courts to solve any potential mistreat.

In a unitary state if the majority of people (ie a majority of GC) supported such legisialtion there is nothing the EU could do about it. In a federal partnership Cypriot state there would and should be something the TC community could do to block such moves that prejudice the TC community vs the GC.

Remember that already many TC live in the free part of the island.

Well we could argue about the meaning of 'many' but let's leave that for now. Many (there thats word again) of the TC who have returned to live in the RoC have complained of prejudice against them. Sure they could go ultimatley to the EU courts to fight such prejudice, but really should they have too?

So, if I understand correctly, the Kurds are not allowed to have the veto power, rotation in presidency etc simply because in the foundation of the Republic of Turkey no such right was granted although you reckon that it was illegal since they represent a large number of the total population and they were living in that land since ever? Let Turkey fixed that then!! If it is unjust as I assume you believe, let Turkey fix this.

I was pointing out the differences between the two situations. Another difference is that Kurds exist at all levels of the Turkish goverment. I have stated here before that I do personaly see an incosistency in Turkey's approach to the Kurds and that of TC in Cyprus but I have alos pointed out and accept that I know relatively little about the kurdish situation in Turkey vs what I know of TC in Cyprus so my view may well be uninformed in this regard. However I am not responsible for Turkey or the Kurds and I find you argument that TC should accept the illegal theft of their rights by GC under the agreed 1960 consitution because of Turkey and the Kurds an unconvincing one. As I also find your statement that if Turkey treated the Kurts better / differently you and GC in general would suddenly have no problem with the concept of political equality of TC community in Cyprus.

Let’s not kidding ourselves. This thing can’t be done cause it is irrational. You still want to apply this thing in Cyprus cause someone else who is also getting advantage of this, thought to propose it and what the heck!!!!!

Is it irrational to want to have an effective say in the riunning of your own homeland? Is it irrational to not want to be at the political mercy of a group that has previously shown much anger violence and hatered towards your community and sought to impose it's purely GC desires on you against your will? If you think this is irrational then I do not know how we can continue a rational discussion here.

Erolz, I really do believe that a solution will be found within this decade. Don’t ask me the sequence of events I have in mind to justify my belief, cause it is quite ugly.

I would hope we could agree a solution and soon.

I am afraid I still insist that it is all about mathematics or even simpler arithmetics. No state that the federation applies is similar to Cyprus characteristics, and yes when we talk about Unions like EU and UN we have to have in mind that we are talking about different states.

It is the basic premise of a federal state that there is some equality of the component states that make up a federation - regardless of their numerical numbers. Your postition is not logical. In one breath you state that in principal you state that democracy is a matter of maths and then you say that this maths principal does not apply in unions of (nation) states only within nation states themselves, then you say that it does not apply within federal states - excpet for Cyprus which is different - and you call this a 'prinicpal' of denmocracy???

I am telling you again, I believe that partition is your goal and not unification.

I am not repsonsible for what you chose to believe. You can tell me a thousand times what you believe my objective but that does notmean you are right. Basically you are saying I am a lier and that when I talk of wanting a federal solution in Cyprus I am lying in the hope that this will help me achioeve my hidden aim of partition. How such lying would help this aim I am not sure? For the record I do not seek partition. Partition is what we have today. I am here on these fporums because I do not believe partition is the only solution possible or that there is no hope for an agreed solution - though at times it is hard to see how that is possible.

Once again, you are playing Ankaras game. Until when is the question to me

Again you can accuse me till the cows come home but of what practical use such accusations are I am not sure. Why would I play an Ankara game? I am not Turkish. I am TC and British by parentage and in my heart. I care about the TC community and Cyprus. Just because I do not support GC ambitions to gain effective GC total control of all of Cyprus and all it's people that does not mean I am playing ankaras game. It means I care for the TC community in Cyprus and it's rights as a community in Cyprus.

[MicAtCyp]

I think there is a misunderstanding in this discussion as to the significance of the vote of the citizens.

It is not your vote that will decide on anything.It is the system itself.You have to look at the system, how that very system will take decisions that will affect you as an individual. Your vote will just chose the individuals who will run the system.For example just look at the pseudo. It has the basic structure of a lets say "democratic" state. What can any vote change when that system is militarily and financially controlled by Ankara? Nothing! Talat would never be elected if Ankara decided he was a traitor based on his previous stance... Instead either Denktash or Eroglu would be in power. By the way notice Eroglu was ordered to resign -in case you don't know it.

The same happens in RoC. What effect you think your vote ever had to change things? You may say we threw out Klerides and elected Papadopoulos.However I strongly beleive that even if Klerides was the President the Anan Plan would still not pass....

So in case the system in Cyprus will be BBF either the GCs have a voting right in the TCcs or not, then "vrase oryza/ boil rice"

I sincerely hope that my fears about TP and what his real objectives are are unfounded and quickly proven to be so and that he enters into genuine and sincere neogtiation with Talat on the basis outlined above ASAP.

Frankly speaking Erol, I have doubts not only for Papadopoulos but for Talat too.Papadopoulos was so far saying it was not the right time to start negotiations because the TCs are in a transitional period for a new leader. Talat was accusing Papadopoulos for not starting negotiations. Yet he is now elected and we did not see any real step from him. Instead we heard him saying in his first speach he wants to know the changes we want on the Anan Plan.Knowing damn well that 76% of the GC people did not like the Anan Plan and any negotiations on it will simply end up to the same denominator, for me that statement of Talat equalled with "We don't want a solution". Equalled to "lets score some more political points". By the minute I hear Talat saying he wants negotiations without preconditions then I will be convinced he is sincere.

Was the modern Turkish state founded on the principal of equality of the Kurdish and Turkish communities in Tukey. No it was not. So to argue their sitiuation is the same as that of TC in Cyprus is meaningless.

Erol, please see my reply to Viewpoint. Democratic systems and constitutions are procedures that evolve through many years even centuries. Turkey was not founded that way. Neither was Cyprus. Both were forced procedures.Even the solution we are seeking today is a forced and undemocratic procedure due to the presense of the Turkish army and the 30 years of Invasion and continuing occupation

Now if you ask me how that democratic procedure would evolve if we were not under any foreighn ruler I tell you that by 1960 Cyprus would be so much more advanced economically compared with Greece that the Enosis dream would be as ridiculous as it could ever be.And the Tcs would have a percentage representation everywhere, and multiregional autonomy.

[Piratis]

Erolz etc, want their own vote for our common homeland to count 4.5 times than my vote! I am sorry but this is not acceptable for me, it is undemocratic!!

I want your vote as an indivdual to count the same as mine as indivudal. I want the vote of your component state to count the same the vote of our component state in a federal solution. If this is not acceptable to you then a federal solution is not acceptable to you, for equality (on some levels) of component states in a federal system is the definition of a federal system. You want in effect what you (GC) wanted in 63 and tried to sieze and did sieze (till 74) illegaly in 63 - namely effective total control of all of cyprus and all cypriots by the GC community alone and for your community rights to always override those of the TC communites rights (as partner communites). No change then in your position and no change in the mess that CYprus is in.

Erolz, we discussed this so many times I will just reply by quoting myself:

This is a contradiction. Both (equality of communities the way you see it and equality of citizens) can not exist at the same time.
Say we have a referendum whether to accept something or reject it.
Say in this referendum 100.000 people vote to reject it, and the rest vote to accept it. If all people are equal, then this something is accepted. If communities are equal, then if those 100.000 are TCs then this something is rejected, while if it is GCs it is accepted. This clearly shows the a vote from a TC worths more than a vote from a GC (4.5 times more) and there is no equality between people.

Equality of states does not mean inequality of citizens though, because citizens are free to become residents of any state they wish.

Therefore a federation is OK, political equality of communities (the way you realize it) is not.

The true rights of communities are those that make citizens more equal to each other, and not the opposite. For example if I have the right to read an official document in my native language you should have it too. The way I see it, the rights of communities are what make communities different: religion, culture (history), language. In this things we have community equality. If you take religion, language and culture out from TCs and GCs, then we are just Cypriots, and therefore for all other matters we decide as equal Cypriots.

The essence of what I say is that all Cypriots should be equal in one Cyprus and the human rights of everybody should be respected. the rights of the communities should be respected also, but communities do not have rights for their own federal state, 50% power etc.

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We discussed this issues so many times maybe I should compile a "canned answers" document

[erolz]

So in case the system in Cyprus will be BBF either the GCs have a voting right in the TCcs or not, then "vrase oryza/ boil rice"

You seem to be arguing (and if I have fgot you wrong here then I appologise) that TC should not be concerned with political equality of the communites because it makes no real difference who you vote for - things still stay the same. Whilst I have much sympathy for this view (in the UK I was a big fan of gore vidal's quip about voting "you should not vote as it only encourages them [politicians]) - I do not consider it total. However ineffectual an indivduals vote may be it still represents their only chance to have a say in most democratic sytems and that is certainly betyter than no chance at all. If you really believe that voting is so inconsequential then why do you (and here I mean GC that do) oppose political equality of the communites - it will make no difference anyway.

Erol, please see my reply to Viewpoint. Democratic systems and constitutions are procedures that evolve through many years even centuries. Turkey was not founded that way. Neither was Cyprus. Both were forced procedures.Even the solution we are seeking today is a forced and undemocratic procedure due to the presense of the Turkish army and the 30 years of Invasion and continuing occupation

With respect MicAtCyp you do this often - take a reply I made to someone else out of it's context. My statement you quote was in repsonse to why is the situation of the Kurd different to that of the TC. Anyway in an atempt to deal with your points above - neither was Greece created that way but presumably you consider it democratic? The reason why we have forced solutions in Cyprus is because we can not agree without force. If we could agree without external force about a common Cypriot future the no force in the world could stop us fulfilling this destiny. We could not agree on the future of Cyprus when it gained it's independance - so external pressure was apllied to make us agree. We failed to find a common future and idenitity then are still failing today. As long as we fail to do this we will be subject to external pressure to do so. Thats how I see things anyway.

Now if you ask me how that democratic procedure would evolve if we were not under any foreighn ruler I tell you that by 1960 Cyprus would be so much more advanced economically compared with Greece that the Enosis dream would be as ridiculous as it could ever be.And the Tcs would have a percentage representation everywhere, and multiregional autonomy.

That is speculation. You may be right but you may also be wrong. One thing that is clear as far as I am concerned is that if the TC had not resisted GC attempts to force the will on all of Cyprus and all Cypriots in the 50's Cyprus would not today exists as a sovreign nation at all. The RoC owes it's very existance today to the TC communites demands for some degree of political equality in Cyprus.

[erolz]

We discussed this issues so many times maybe I should compile a "canned answers" document

Maybe we both should ?