Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Kifeas,
When I say "citizens of two categories" I mean citizens that are discriminated against by the state. I don't think this is the case with refugees. There will always be diferent categories of people, but shouldn't the state view all its citizens as equal, with equal rights?

Erolz etc, want their own vote for our common homeland to count 4.5 times than my vote! I am sorry but this is not acceptable for me, it is undemocratic!!

[erolz]

Erolz etc, want their own vote for our common homeland to count 4.5 times than my vote! I am sorry but this is not acceptable for me, it is undemocratic!!

I want your vote as an indivdual to count the same as mine as indivudal. I want the vote of your component state to count the same the vote of our component state in a federal solution. If this is not acceptable to you then a federal solution is not acceptable to you, for equality (on some levels) of component states in a federal system is the definition of a federal system. You want in effect what you (GC) wanted in 63 and tried to sieze and did sieze (till 74) illegaly in 63 - namely effective total control of all of cyprus and all cypriots by the GC community alone and for your community rights to always override those of the TC communites rights (as partner communites). No change then in your position and no change in the mess that CYprus is in.

[salonica]

My opinion is this: You are offered the chance of living in a modern western-type society with every political and economical right as persons. even if you don't beleive GC, you should at least trust EU and its laws. You demand something that is irrational that no GC will ever accept, not because it will make a difference to your daily life in that society but because it will make a major difference to Turkey.

<As an indivdual GC will have exactly the same rights as a TC indivdual. As a community the GC community will have exactly the same rights as the TC community. There is no sacrafice of your political rights required, just a will to accept that as communites we have equal rights and say ove what happens to the Island - something you are apparently not willing to accept.>


You should start to think practical. I am voting for political party A which has a specific policy towards let’s say taxes. Let’s say that 10 people vote for that party. If there is another party B which has a totally different aspect on the matter, and gains support of only 5, why should I accept enforcement of minority into majority?




<No I am not telling you this - these are words you have chosen to put into my mouth despite the fact that I did not utter them. The issue is should the Kurds in Turkey have the same political rights as a community as the TC community wants in Cyprus.>

and

<If you can show another country that was founded as an independent state on the basis of equailty of two communites then I wil accept that their situation is the same as ours. The fact is, despite your protestations, the TC community in Cyprus is not the same as say the Indian community in the UK. The indian community in the UK chose to go and live in a state (the UK) that already existed as a state. The TC community did not 'immigrate' into an existing (greek) Cypriot state and then start demanding political equality. They existed in Cyprus before the founding of a Cypriot state and that Cypriot state was based on a recognition of the equality of the two communites and AGREED by both the communites at that time. If you can not see this difference then I can help you no futher.>

Turkey is the country you are looking for
You tell me if the Kurds should have the same political rights as Turks in Turkey? From what I know they were in the country long before the state of Turkey emerged. Is that correct? Where is the veto power, rotation in presidency etc?




<You should read what I have written. I gave exmples of both federal states - where the component states have equailty regardless of their size - AND of uinons of nation states. I gave both examples because it was YOU that claimed that this was an issue of mathematics and mathemetics does not change in unions of nation states and in unions of components sates in a federal nation state. You want to present a view that any time a group has political represnetation disporportionate to it's indivduals numbers it represents an 'anormal' and 'undemocratic' sysytem - and this is a view that can not be supported with logicla arguments. Such systems of political representation disporportionate to indivduals numbers are neither anormal or undemocratic - be they sysytems within a (federal) nation state of between unions of nation states.>

I believe I have told you my opinion about the EU and UN. You also include federal states in your argument. Tell me do you really see any similarities between Cyprus with ONLY 2 communities present and all other federal states?

[Kifeas]

Kifeas,
When I say "citizens of two categories" I mean citizens that are discriminated against by the state. I don't think this is the case with refugees. There will always be diferent categories of people, but shouldn't the state view all its citizens as equal, with equal rights?

Erolz etc, want their own vote for our common homeland to count 4.5 times than my vote! I am sorry but this is not acceptable for me, it is undemocratic!!

Ok Piratis, I see your point. You do not accept the extreme position of the TC side, as I referred to and described it in my initial posting.

Do you personally accept the other, equally extreme from a TC perspective and also unattainable, in my opinion, position of some GCs that only a solution based on one-man-one-vote can be acceptable to us?

What do you personally suggest or accept as a possible way out?

[brother]

YOUR BELOVED E.U ENDORSED THE ANNAN 5 PLAN AND STILL DOES WITH THE REST OF THE WORLD INCLUDING RUSSIA, U.S, BRITON etc.

ARE THE REST OF THE WORLD WRONG AND YOU RIGHT I DO NOT THINK SO.

But you will argue that the E.U did not understand what it was endorsing, well i find that complete rubbish as they have highly paid people who advise them and hence your insistance about an E.U solution puzzles me at the best of times.

Cyprus will never be a Hellenic island but it can be an equal partnership between two communities on equal footing, can you accept that.

[Kifeas]

I want your vote as an indivdual to count the same as mine as indivudal. I want the vote of your component state to count the same the vote of our component state in a federal solution. If this is not acceptable to you then a federal solution is not acceptable to you, for equality (on some levels) of component states in a federal system is the definition of a federal system.

Erol, once more, I feel the need to remind to you that what you described above is not what the official TC side professes. I wish it was, unfortunately it isn’t! This is more or less (what you described above) what the official GC side is hopping to convince the TC to agree on this single issue, and this is unlike what you (TCs) are made to believe about Papadopoullos.

[Kifeas]

YOUR BELOVED E.U ENDORSED THE ANNAN 5 PLAN AND STILL DOES WITH THE REST OF THE WORLD INCLUDING RUSSIA, U.S, BRITON etc.

Just another unsubstantiated cliché!

[garbitsch]

salonica, we are Turkish Cypriots, and we do not care about the Kurds in Turkey! We are the ones who demand our own rights which were stolen by the G.Cs in 1963. Cyprus is not a Greek island, and will never be. You cannot use "Cypriotness" to rule over Turkish Cypriots. If you keep ignoring the fact that Turkish Cypriots have always been equal partners of G.Cs, then it is YOUR problem. If the majority of G.C population thinks like you, then all of your major political parties are lying to the WHOLE world, by demanding a bizonal bi communal federation. Am I wrong?

[erolz]

My opinion is this: You are offered the chance of living in a modern western-type society with every political and economical right as persons. even if you don't beleive GC, you should at least trust EU and its laws.

So you would be happy for Cyprus to be part of the UK, with cypriots enjoying the chance of living in a modern western-type society with every political right as indivduals? Of course you would not.

You claim that GC would have no ability to do anyhting detrimental against the TC community in your 'unitary state' ideal be that politicaly determinental or physicaly. Well the fact is that the EU does not get involved in member countries 'internal' problems be they political issues or physical. There is no EU force in Northern Island (and in fact no EU force at all) - just a UK force. If in a unitary state the GC community decided to make Greek the sole language of the state, what proptection would the EU offer the TC against such a move in a unitary RoC. None is the answer. If GC decided to join politicaly with Greece (enosis) what protection would the EU provide the TC against such a move in your unitary state. The answer is none. If a GC majority decided to restrict foreign investment from non EU countries (to the determient of TC businesses vs GC businesses) what protections would the EU provide against such in your unitary state. The answer is none. If GC extermists started to exact revenge against TC for the events of 74 do you really think the EU would send EU troops to stop them? They would not.

You demand something that is irrational that no GC will ever accept, not because it will make a difference to your daily life in that society but because it will make a major difference to Turkey.

There is nothing irrational in not wanting to your future and the future of your own homeland to be soleley in the hands of a group that has in the past sought to rob you of your rights and property and lives and persued political goals that are totaly against your will and to enforce these upon you. The fact is you already accepted that TC as a community have a status of more than a political minority in someone elses country. You agreed and accepted that in 1960 and have spent the last 40 years trying to unilateraly reneage on that agreement and legitiamise their illeagl reneging of those agreements.

You should start to think practical. I am voting for political party A which has a specific policy towards let’s say taxes. Let’s say that 10 people vote for that party. If there is another party B which has a totally different aspect on the matter, and gains support of only 5, why should I accept enforcement of minority into majority?

You can reject any kind of federal solution. You can continue to try and legitimise the theft of TC rights from 63. That is your choice but as long as you continue to do so do not expect a solution any time soon.

You tell me if the Kurds should have the same political rights as Turks in Turkey?

As indivduals they should as should turks in Greece or anybody anywhere.

From what I know they were in the country long before the state of Turkey emerged. Is that correct? Where is the veto power, rotation in presidency etc?

Was the modern Turkish state founded on the principal of equality of the Kurdish and Turkish communities in Tukey. No it was not. So to argue their sitiuation is the same as that of TC in Cyprus is meaningless.

I believe I have told you my opinion about the EU and UN. You also include federal states in your argument. Tell me do you really see any similarities between Cyprus with ONLY 2 communities present and all other federal states?

You talked of 'prinicpals' of democracy and how it was just a matter of mathematics. When that argument was defeated you retreat to another argument, that equalilty of federal componenet states is fair and democratic when there is more than two states but not when there is two. This is not more convincing an argument to me than the previous one.

[brother]

Just another unsubstantiated cliché!



Kifeas that is absolute bollocks what you said, most of the E.U leaders felt and still feel back stabbed about the referandum, maybe you should go and read some of the past newspapers and clippings of that time and stop the i am Mr. high old mighty with the moral issues when you know close to nothing and deny the obvious truths.