Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz]

Erolz, yes you are a minority.

We are a numerical minority. The question is should we also be a political minority in our own homeland. You think we should (though still talk of 'federal solution'). We do not think we should. It's simple really.

What you are trying is to gain a lot more than your 18%. In land you are trying to gain +11% (and therefore -11% for us),

18% is your figure - I do not know what % we owned pre 63 but let's assume it is 18% (and ignore the rleative values of property as well as area). I would personally 'trade' any extra we currently have for our rights to political equality as a partner community in Cyprus. However you want your land back and want us to accept being a politcal minority - which is not acceptable to me or I imagine most TC.

and in power you are trying to get +32% (which means -32% for us).

In power we are trying to get equality of the communites. Equality for the TC community means by definition equality ofr the GC community. You have no interest is such equailty. You want equality only of indivduals which just happens to equate to 100% effective political control for GC community (or -100% effectvie political control for TC community)

So don't tell me that you are not trying to gain on our loss. This is exactly what you are trying to do.

I am not trying to gain on your loss. You want back exactly the % of land area you lost in 74 - fine you can have it but I want back at least the level of political equalilty the TC community had in 1960 that you stole from us in 63-74 (along with our land and our possesions).

I demand what is legal,

As long as you make the laws

what is democratic

as long as you define democracy in your terms - ie there can only be democracy of indivduals and of nation states but not of 'communites' or 'federal component states'.

and what respects human rights.

as long as you define what human rights are and who they apply to - ie there are only human rights of indivduals and of peoples but no human rights of communites and that there is only a single Cypriot people which effectively = GC.

I believe only miserable people without self respect and with slave mentality are able to live without these things without any problem.

You believe I live without law, democracy and human rights here in the TRNC? As ever you will believe what you want (or what is convient to your agenda). TC are no more law breaking, anti democratic or human rights abusers than any other group imo. You insistance and apparent beleif that we are and this is the cause of the state of Cyprus today has it's roots in racism and hatred for TC simply because they are TC and in a need to 'blame others' for the state of Cyprus today - in my humble opinion.

[turkcyp]

Dear Piratis,

I try to not respond certain people on this forum because my debates with them are usually counterproductive. And you are one of them.

But seeing how you read my posts and intentionally (I do not know for what reason) or unintentionally (you do not understand what you reads) distort what I have said, I am forced to respond one more time.

What I have said was majority of GCs will not benefit individually in terms of financial gain because they were not refugees. For majority any solution comes at only marginal financial benefit (and not even sure even that marginal financial benefit exists, that is what were discussing with Kifeas) but with a huge political cost of sharing the power with TCs.

So my theory is that majority of GCs do not even care about solution because they will be the loosing end of bargain because they were simply not affected by the events of 1974. So life for most of them is as usual as before 1974.

The only thing in your posts worth actually responding was the fact that, which I agree is a concern for everybody, is a security concerns. And I do not believe that these people think that their everyday life is in danger. Because the Turkish army and TC soldiers are staying pretty much where they are for the last 31 years.

What they are concerned about, is what Kifeas mentioned and I agreed, is that because of Turkish armies existence their expenses on national defense in terms of taxes are higher so it affects their life again in terms of financial cost. But even if the Turkish army leaves tomorrow, I highly doubt that national defense spending of GCs will go down, because Cyprus is only 43 nautical miles of the cost of Turkey. Unless you have a plan of transferring the whole island somewhere else your defense spending will unlikely to go down substantially in case of Turkish army withdrawal.

So in short please do not distort my post and claim that I have said “if solution occurs GCs will not benefit”. What I have said was majority (approximately 65%) of GCs will not benefit because they were not refugees.

Take care,

p.s.. I am not even responding to your part where you claim we try to suck money out of you. Firts learn to understand what you read.

[cannedmoose]

I meant, because of your Greek ... acquaintances, you came across an efialtis, for sure. We have one for every single misfortune that has befallen on us. Piratis probably has more than one ... but this is another story.

Oh, many cases Bananiot, I just didn't know this was the appropriate word to use... in future I'm now fully armed to respond to another Greek tragedy...

[Piratis]

We are a numerical minority. The question is should we also be a political minority in our own homeland.

Yes you are, just like every other ethnic minority in the world.

18% is your figure

Actually it is about 16.5%, I gave you more.

In power we are trying to get equality of the communites.

82% is not equal to the 18%. Why should 100.000 TCs be able to block something and 100.000 GCs can not? This is not democracy, maybe is the Turkish kind of democracy

As long as you make the laws

as long as you define democracy in your terms

as long as you define what human rights are

How about:
The laws of EU in any other EU country
The kind of democracy in any other EU country
The human rights as defined by the UN

Erolz, you are the ones who want to create in something that does not exist anywhere else in order to screw us. We accept just about any other EU country system and laws and the standard definitions of human rights by the UN.

I try to not respond certain people on this forum because my debates with them are usually counterproductive. And you are one of them.

I am glad that discussions with me and you are counter productive because I know what kind of "product" you want.

[turkcyp]

I am glad that discussions with me and you are counter productive because I know what kind of "product" you want.

What kind of product I want?

Hmm.

The only products I want from this forum are “debates conducted in civility” and “more thorough understanding of GCs take on Cyprus matters”. I did not know that our product in this forum would be the solution for the Cyprus.

I do not talking with you not because your views about Cyprus problem or solution parameters, but because of “your inability to express them in civility” and you basic “inability to understand what has been said in intentionally or unintentionally”. (see, My last post to you, and realize that main complaint was your distortion of my post).

That is why my debates with certain people in this forum is counter-productive. Because it “does not lead into logical and understandable debates conducted in civility”, not because our views on Cyprus problem differs substantially from each others. That I can live with and I actually enjoy, otherwise we would have very banal and boring debates going on here.

I have no other aim or “product expectation” from this forum. Some people may, for example, propaganda spreading, or trying to solve the Cyprus problem.

[erolz]

Yes you are, just like every other ethnic minority in the world.

Like every other 'ethnic minority' who when their homeland gained independance were recognised are more than a minority and as a partner community in the new state. Like every other ethnic minority where the ethnic majority sought to impose colonilsm of another country on them against their will. I am sorry but to say we are just like every other ethnic minority in the world is to deny the past. We are not just like any other 'ethnic minority' just as GC are not just like any other 'ethnic majority' in the world.

82% is not equal to the 18%. Why should 100.000 TCs be able to block something and 100.000 GCs can not? This is not democracy, maybe is the Turkish kind of democracy

Why should 400,000 GC be able to block sonthing _millions_ of other EU citizens support and yet 400,000 UK citizens or German citizens or EU citizens can not? This is not democracy according to you. Oh I forgot democracy means one thing in a union of ststes but an entirely different thing in a union of federal component states - this is the GC (your) kind of democracy.

The laws of EU in any other EU country

If you had not operated outside of the RoC laws and international laws in the period of 63-74 then Cyprus would not be divided today.

The kind of democracy in any other EU country

Every federal state in the EU or out of it has a concept of equality of federal compnent states - every one except of course and federal Cyprus.

The human rights as defined by the UN

You deny our human rights as a people as defined in these charters - by denying we are a people.

Erolz, you are the ones who want to create in something that does not exist anywhere else in order to screw us. We accept just about any other EU country system and laws and the standard definitions of human rights by the UN.

The RoC as founded in 1960 was not the creation of TC - it was the creation of both communites and the international community and you AGRRED to is - signed it and said you would defend it. You then did exactly the opposite and sought to screw us and steal from us what was rightly ours. You accept the rights as laid out in the UN charters and then seek to deny us those rights by denying we are a people. I may just as well claim to accpet the human rights of indivduals and then deny them to you on tyhe basis that your are not humans. That is your approach to accepting human rights. As long as you decide if are a people you support human rights. If you do not get to decide that you ignore human rights.

You characterise the Cyprus problem as being one of TC seeking to screw GC and gain at their expense. Yet GC sought to screw TC and gain at their expense but you ignore this. You ignored law, democracy and human rights in your attempts to steal from TC their rights as a community and which you _agreed to_ as well as their properties. Now that you failed to gain what you sough by illegal, undemocratic and abusive of human rights means (and lost more besides in your attempt) you seek to leaglise your theft at our expense all in the name of 'law' and 'democracy' and 'human rights'. I say again if GC had not abused the law, democracy and human rights then the island would not be divided today. It is you that are still seeking to steal from TC just as you did from 63 onwards. The means have changed by neciessity but the objective of theft at TC expense remains consistent.

[garbitsch]

We are a numerical minority. The question is should we also be a political minority in our own homeland.

Yes you are, just like every other ethnic minority in the world.

18% is your figure

Actually it is about 16.5%, I gave you more.

In power we are trying to get equality of the communites.

82% is not equal to the 18%. Why should 100.000 TCs be able to block something and 100.000 GCs can not? This is not democracy, maybe is the Turkish kind of democracy

As long as you make the laws

as long as you define democracy in your terms

as long as you define what human rights are

How about:
The laws of EU in any other EU country
The kind of democracy in any other EU country
The human rights as defined by the UN

Erolz, you are the ones who want to create in something that does not exist anywhere else in order to screw us. We accept just about any other EU country system and laws and the standard definitions of human rights by the UN.

I try to not respond certain people on this forum because my debates with them are usually counterproductive. And you are one of them.

I am glad that discussions with me and you are counter productive because I know what kind of "product" you want.

IF WE ARE A MINORITY, WHY WILL WE BE ASKED TO VOTE FOR A SOLUTION? CAN'T YOU SEE THAT IT IS ALSO IN OUR HANDS TO DECIDE WHETHER TO SAY YES OR NO FOR THE UNIFICATION? WILL YOU STOP PATRONIZING BY CLAIMING THAT WE ARE A MINORITY? WE WILL NEVER SACRIFICE OUR STATE AND INDEPENDENCE (DON'T CARE IF YOU CALL IT ILLEGAL) TO BECOME A SIMPLE MINORITY UNDER THE RULE OF GREEK CYPRIOTS WHO HAD ALWAYS WORKED AGAINST US, AND WILL WORK AGAINST US IN THE FUTURE. YOU DO NOT EVEN SHOW A VERY SINGLE AMOUNT OF SYPMAPHY TOWARDS TURKISH CYPRIOTS, YOU WANT TO TAKE THEIR RIGHTS, YOU TALK ABOUT CIVILISATION OR WHATSOEVER, BUT YOU ARE THE ONE WHO WANTS TO TAKE THE FREEDOM OF US. AGAIN, GET THIS TO YOUR THICK SKULL THAT WE WILL NEVER VOTE YES TO BECOME A SIMPLE MINORITY, A GREEK MUSLIM, UNDER THE YOKE OF GREEKS. YOU CANNOT TRICK US BY PLAYING THE EU CARD, UNFORTUNATELY EVERYBODY IS BEHIND US!

[Piratis]

18% is a minority.
The definition again for those with learning problems:

In sociology and in voting theory, a minority is a sub-group that forms less than half of the population, and — as a rule — is outnumbered by at least one other sub-group. (That is, it does not form either a majority or a plurality.) This can be used to categorize people of a different language, nationality, religion, culture, lifestyle or any characteristic, provided these people are accepted as part of the referent group.

Now of course you have the Turkish tanks behind you, and you can claim whatever you want, you can illegaly keep the land that does not belong to you etc.
However the balance of power changes. We are on this island for 3500 years and we are not going to gift any part of it to you. If you want to live with us, as equal citizens of this country with full respect to human rights and democracy, you are more than welcome to. You own 18% share (not 50%). It is up to you if you wish to be the 18% partners on this island, or sell your share and try your luck somewhere else. Whats for sure is that our share in the indivisible Cyprus is not for sale.

[erolz]

18% is a minority.
The definition again for those with learning problems:

18% is a numerical minority. That is not the same as a political minority, just as the RoC which is a numerical minority of less than 1% of the EU is not a political minroty in the EU. Can you learn that that numerical minority and political minority are not the same thing?

Now of course you have the Turkish tanks behind you, and you can claim whatever you want, you can illegaly keep the land that does not belong to you etc.

And before we had the Turkish tanks behind us, and after you had stolen our rights and property from us? Is this the kind of 'balance of power' you wish to see return?

However the balance of power changes.

It certainly does. You had the balance of power in 63-74 and you abused that power massively. Now you have lost the balance of power you cry for legality and democracy and human rights. If you had cared for these things when you had the balance of power we would not be in this mess today.

We are on this island for 3500 years and we are not going to gift any part of it to you.

Same old poems then 'Cyprus is Greek. It has always been Greek. It will always be Greek. All of it."

If you want to live with us, as equal citizens of this country with full respect to human rights and democracy, you are more than welcome to. You own 18% share (not 50%).

If we sing your poem - Cyprus is Greek - then we will let you live in our Greek Cyprus. If you try and sing your own poem then we will crush you as and when the balance of power allows us too - because Cyprus is Greek and has always been Greek and will always be Greek.

It is up to you if you wish to be the 18% partners on this island, or sell your share and try your luck somewhere else. Whats for sure is that our share in the indivisible Cyprus is not for sale.

Who says Cyprus is indivisible? Another of your Greek poems? For your information Cyprus IS divided today. It is divided today because of how you behaved when you had the balance of power - because of your lack of concern for legality, democracy and human rights. Because of this you lost the balance of power and your 'indivisible' Cyprus was divided.

[MicAtCyp]

Who said this crap?

Sorry Pirati, it was not meant the way you understood it. It was simply an example of their own gossip using their own words, but with a change of names. Your name was chosen randomly it could be kifeas or someone else. Heres a translation of my message in Greek to see what i meant:

To ksero Pirati. Autos (o Bananiot) einai Efialtis.Idi exome oloi antilifthi se auto to forum ti eidos anthropou einai.Exei complexes........

**********************************
Bananiot,

What you are doing will never wash your sins for what you yourself did to the TCs and you know that. Turning against your own people IS NOT THE ANSWER!!