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[Viewpoint]

-mikkie2-

The donors conference before the referenda was a sham as MicAtCyp has rightly pointed out, with the express view at deceiving the electorate into believing that the foreigners would help pay for the cost of implementation. The figures never did and will never add up.

How would the GC administarition know they didnt even bother to turn up thats how commited they were to a solution

[MicAtCyp]

Cannedmoose wil you ever stop patronising the way I talk in this forum? Look, so far I let it pass, but trying to advise and criticise me, started giving me on the nerves. You spend more time in the forum dealing with my style, than actually contributing. So for the last time stop !!! Or else I know very well how to respond.

I spent a lot of time on Vasilious report and I was very careful in trying to point this out to you without offending you -I even said "no offense meant" at a point where I might seem dubious.. Then you come and say I have a complex. Well thats too much! Maybe you should first ask yourself if it is you who have a hidden complex... I did not say I am wiser than you, I said I just happened to have scrutinised on that report and perhaps it would be wiser from you if you just acknowledged that I might know some bit more about it than you.

To the point now:

Vassiliou's report was a warm endorsement of the majority of the APs principles. Was it not widely reported as such? Or was this all a media conspiracy to convince everyone that this was so, in total denial of the reports REAL contents?

Sorry it was not a warm endorsement of the Anan Plan Principles. It just examined the economics of the solution. The FACTS he presented showed that many aspects of the Anan Plan were economically unworkable. Others parts were proved an exageration of the "No camp". Regarding the properties it just proved the great unjustice against the GC refugees. Regarding the Media they just took his 16 billion figure. Even that is wrong, and if you study the report you will see that Vassiliou deliberately included some irrelevant costs to come up to that figure -I don't know why it still remains a mystery to me-perhaps it was an effort to help us get something more from the donors. Like I said I DO respect it as a report, I did not find any faulty figures or lies in his economic analysis. However if you ask me to comment on his conclussions and predictions I would say they are on the VERY optimistic side.

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How would the GC administarition know they didnt even bother to turn up thats how commited they were to a solution

The RoC let you do the job at the Conference of Donnors and we saw how successful you were. Not even half a billion pounds! Japan said they will give nothing unless they see proof of everything....

[cannedmoose]

Cannedmoose wil you ever stop patronising the way I talk in this forum? Look, so far I let it pass, but trying to advise and criticise me, started giving me on the nerves. You spend more time in the forum dealing with my style, than actually contributing. So for the last time stop !!! Or else I know very well how to respond.

As for your "...or else" statement, whatever man, it's a bit lame to make childish threats

Regardless, I do acknowledge that you've spent more time on the Vassiliou report than I have, just as I have probably spent time on areas that are not your specialtyh. The issue I have with your tone may be a product of cultural clash, so I'll put it down to that and we'll move on. I just ask that in future we both show a degree of respect for each others opinions and can have reasoned debates without constant sarcasm and one-up-man-ship. I'm not a person who likes having issues with people, so hopefully we can move on from this and have productive discussions in the future.

[MicAtCyp]

My "or else" Canned was followed by "I know how to respond" and if you consider it childish, then I dont know how to explain it otherwise to you

Now what I have asked you is to either concentrate to the point of discussions, or dont answer at all. Specifically stop gossipping behind my bag, stop forming alliances, and stop minglening when for very sound reasons I attack certain people.

If you are interested I can indicate you specifically, that each and every time I attack is because I have a very sound reason to do so.But I am not interested to do this publicly. PM me and I will explain you each case separately.

[MicAtCyp]

Oh, and I never questioned your expertise on anything, nor did I feel an inferiority complex against you, and never said you are having a superiority complex by showing us up what you know of your worldwide experiences. I simply read them with interest.

[brother]

edited

[Bananiot]

Can someone inform me as to how it is possible to talk behind someone's back in an open forum?

[turkcyp]

Majority of GCs will never accept any plan other than full implementation of current day RoC over the whole island. (And I even doubt that actually.)

I believe majority of GCs have got nothing in economical terms to gain from any solution so why would they vote yes. A huge majority of GCs are not refugees so they will not get any money or land back so why would they want to share power with the TCs.

I believe that people vote with their pocket. That is why I , sometime even suspect if majority of GCs would even accept the continuation of current RoC to all over the island (which TC definitely would never accept), because even that solution comes at a cost to them without any financial benefits.

TCs voted for “Annan Plan” because it was making them financially better of.
GCs votes against “Annan Plan” because it was making them financially worse of. (look at the voting patterns among the refugees who would get their land back and you will see who voted “Yes”).

At this point we should stop and ask to ourselves is their any plan that will make both sides financially better off?

My answer to this question is increasingly “No” because for majority of GCs anything other than current status quo, or partition makes them actually worse off. So they would rather have the status quo continued or partition but they rather continue status quo instead of partition in the case of partition minority of GCs would be worse off then status quo as well. (At least right now they have hope and ECHR)

So unless there will have some sort of negative financial consequences (like economic isolation or something else) of continuation of status quo felt on GCs there will not be a solution in the foreseeable future. This reasons why many TCs had voted “yes” because there was negative financial consequences of the continuation of status quo on them.

I always say one thing the best way to force communities to solution is to have “Stick and stick” scenario. In this scenario both communities get worse of everyday, so they are forced to find a solution by making compromises. The downside of this scenario is that both communities would actually settle the problem for wrong reasons, and may achieve a solution which is not satisfactory to them in the long run.

The second best alternative is “carrot-carrot” scenario. In this alternative both communities gets richer everyday, and they only find a solution for right reasons. The downside for this is that it will take much longer for solution to appear as nobody will be in a rush to find it.

The last 10-15 years approach has been “carrot-stick” in Cyprus. This approach forces one side for solution as they get worse off everyday and gives no incentive for the other side to reach a compromise as they get richer everyday even without solution. So we may find a solution relatively easier than the second best approach, (but longer than the first best approach as the side that gets richer will keep on waiting for the other side to surrender completely) but the downside for this approach is that the solution found would be totally unfair to one side because it will accept more compromises than the other side because they are getting poorer everyday as the other side is getting richer.

So unless the EU stops using the current “carrot-stick” formula I do not see any reason to believe that there will be a solution in the foreseeable future.

It all comes down to “KOTOR”….

[Kifeas]

-Majority of GCs will never accept any plan other than full implementation of current day RoC over the whole island. (And I even doubt that actually.)

This statement (cliché) is just another of Denktash’s victimising slogans. It just shows how much misinformation TCs have over the GC positions. It also shows how much effect does Denktash continue to have over TC’s opinion formulation. In fact he repeated the same words yesterday during Talat’s inauguration.

-I believe majority of GCs have got nothing in economical terms to gain from any solution so why would they vote yes. A huge majority of GCs are not refugees so they will not get any money or land back so why would they want to share power with the TCs.

The proper and fairer re-instatement of properties Worthing billions of pounds is not something to be gained by at least 35% of all GCs?

The redeployment of investment in these properties and the additional resources of revenue that will derive from the exploitation of these properties in Tourism, industry and agriculture are not economic benefits for the GCs?

The alleviation from military expenditures equally to about one million of Euros per day, is not an economic benefit to be gained by GCs after a solution?

I believe that people vote with their pocket. That is why I , sometime even suspect if majority of GCs would even accept the continuation of current RoC to all over the island (which TC definitely would never accept), because even that solution comes at a cost to them without any financial benefits.

TurkCyp, you are miles away from the GC reality. Read above.

TCs voted for “Annan Plan” because it was making them financially better of.
GCs votes against “Annan Plan” because it was making them financially worse of. (look at the voting patterns among the refugees who would get their land back and you will see who voted “Yes”).

Perhaps you are correct to a great extend as far a s TCs are concerned. As far as GCs are concerned you are considerably way off the truth. Refuges from areas that were getting their lands back voted “NO” by 65%. Those with properties within the TCCS voted “No” by 80%.

At this point we should stop and ask to ourselves is their any plan that will make both sides financially better off?

Yes there is. However, it requires that the TC leadership firstly explains to the TCs the real facts and figures regarding properties, ceases to behave in such a greedy manner and recognises that the huge number of settlers creates additional obstacles and barriers regarding the property issue and the financial situation in general.

My answer to this question is increasingly “No” because for majority of GCs anything other than current status quo, or partition makes them actually worse off. So they would rather have the status quo continued or partition but they rather continue status quo instead of partition in the case of partition minority of GCs would be worse off then status quo as well. (At least right now they have hope and ECHR)

Read above.

-So unless there will have some sort of negative financial consequences (like economic isolation or something else) of continuation of status quo felt on GCs there will not be a solution in the foreseeable future. This reasons why many TCs had voted “yes” because there was negative financial consequences of the continuation of status quo on them.

I am sorry for this but, ...you just make me laugh reading this one.

-I always say one thing the best way to force communities to solution is to have “Stick and stick” scenario. In this scenario both communities get worse of everyday, so they are forced to find a solution by making compromises. The downside of this scenario is that both communities would actually settle the problem for wrong reasons, and may achieve a solution which is not satisfactory to them in the long run.

At least you are a bit cleverer this time. At least for your downside conclusion.

-The second best alternative is “carrot-carrot” scenario. In this alternative both communities gets richer everyday, and they only find a solution for right reasons. The downside for this is that it will take much longer for solution to appear as nobody will be in a rush to find it.

Ok, then. If according to you the reasons that TCs voted “Yes” are due to potential economic benefits. Then we should allow you direct trade, more tourism and more importantly let you free and in peace to sell even more GC properties to the foreigners until no GC land is left to be returned. In this way and once you become rich, as you said, you will be more interested for a solution.

It all comes down to “KOTOR”….

...and what does that means?

[turkcyp]

Dear Kifeas,

Thank you for providing another classical example of why posts should not be divided into meaningless parts, but rather read as in a bigger context but should be divided with uttermost care.

The whole posts explaines my position why majority of GCs would not accept any solution. And if you read it carefully without dividing into subsections, you can easily understand that my reasoning behind this was not ‘Denktas’s victimizing slogans” but rather the fact that I do not believe majority of GCs would gain financially from solution.

The only proper theory that you have provided for explaining how majority of GCs would gain from unification was the increase of investment and economic activity of the rest of the GC society.

I accept that unification will cause a increase in investment activity and economic activity in the island, but I disagree with the fact that this is mainly going to benefit GCs and therefore will shift majority of GCs to vote for yes.

As it stands right now at the end of the day when everybody goes to polls to vote “Yes” or “No”, they will think what am I gaining from this financially, and in any unification plan majority of GCs sees more cost then benefit in terms of money.

And do not get me wrong, I am not blaming GCs for this. It is just the sad realities of life. People vote with their pockets. TCs voted with their pockets as well in the referendum.

The other sensible argument that you have brought about cutbacks from military spending is actually the only relevant factor that probably benefit the majority of Gcs who are not a refugee. But is it enough to shift the mood? I do not think so.

Also I do not know where you get the percentages. May be I am wrong and GCs are the only exception to whole human society so that they vote for benevolence instead of self-pursuit. But as far as I remember the only study I have read, and I do not remember it right now, was showing that “Yes” vote much higher for the areas in south that have more refugees.

You percentages does not discredit my assumption about “people voting with their pocket” If you distribute the refugees among the bigger GC society, it is obvious that in no place refugees would have the majority among GCs, so your percentages does not actually prove anything other then strengthening my point. Whereas the refugees were more concentrated the “yes” vote was impressively higher. (not necessarily more than %50 but higher because in order to have more than %50 you actually need to have all refugees concentrated in one place.)

For the portion of your response about my carrots and sticks analogy. Again you are doing it again. Dividing the whole post into meaningless small pieces. And trying to discredit each sentence, as if thinking discrediting each sentence would give you upper hand in the debate. And person who reads my post understand that carrot and stick analogy is given in relation to the economical benefits aspects of the solution. But instead of answering those aspect (which you did briefly as I have said was the only portion of your response which was intriguing to read), you try discredit my analogy of carrot and stick line by line.

About “KOTOR”.

You do not know what KOTOR means? I guess when you live in Cyprus you never run into Cypriot gypsies. It is normal though, if somebody has been brought up in high society which never comes into contact with common people in Cyprus like “Cyprus gypsies” they would not know their language. It is not your fault. (just kidding. )

The answer to What “KOTOR” is here?

http://www.domresearchcenter.com/journa ... prus8.html