Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Bananiot very intersting article, thanks for posting it

Add here many more thanks from all the other TCs, Turks, Americans and British. (check for Bananiot arriving soon via FedEx)

[Bananiot]

A little bird told me that people like Piratis were heavily sponsored by Denktas to vote "no". After the referendum, Denktas cried out loud "thank god Piratis and the rest of the blessed 76% voted "no" for had they voted "yes" it would have been the end of Turkish Cypriots."

Piratis will never grow up, this is also the reason he cannot see the cementing of the partition which is happening before our very own eyes.

[Piratis]

Sure, sure. Denktas paid the 76% of GCs to vote no. Yes, Bananiot, the Annan plan was so good, but we got billions from Denctash to change our vote

Can you be even more ridiculous than that?

I am sure that Loucas Charalambous gets his info from your little bird also.

[Bananiot]

Oh, I see. Then you might like to explain to us how the 1 million pounds donated by Andronikou to the "no" campaign was spent? There is nothing wrong with financing the campaign, there is however one small hinge. The money was stolen from the unsuspecting Cypriot investors and some of it were even used to provide for the day after celebrations, at Andrinikou's luxury restaurant, with Papadopoulos and his escorts as the esteemed guest.

[Piratis]

I don't know about the 1 million you are talking about. What I know are the several million given to you by the Americans.

What I can say is that I voted "no" because I hated the plan. My opinion is that this plan was an unfair partition plan. Can you accept that I and the other 76% of GCs that voted "no" can have an opinion? Or you think that only you can have one?

[Bananiot]

Of course I can accept it but some reciprocity would be very helpful, don't you agree? I do not mean by you alone, but by the 1st in command, whom you helped stay President and not demoted to a muhtar.

[Piratis]

Of course I can accept it but some reciprocity would be very helpful, don't you agree?

We can accept that you can have an opinion about what you believe. However what you want is not just to express your opinion, but to express the opinion of the "no" voters.

So let us explain why we voted "no", and you can explain why you voted "yes". OK?

I do not mean by you alone, but by the 1st in command, whom you helped stay President and not demoted to a muhtar.

And what kind of reciprocity you want from the president? You want him to do what the 24% wants and to ignore the 76%?

[MicAtCyp]

Cannedmoose

I already told you I scutinised on Vasillious study, not just read it, and unlike you who only seem to have read the conclussions, I am in a position to know which of his conclussions are based on facts and which not, which are based on the actual Anan Plan and which on changes he was expecting to occur on the Plan...

As you well know, the £16bn would not be a one-off cost but would be spread over decades through the issuing of bonds, and not an immediate cost.

Yes thats correct.Now tell me how much the tripple government would cost over and above the existing cost and where on earth those money would be saved from, even on a rate of 1 billion per year. Remember the current Government cost is 2 billion, with the Anan Plan it was expected to become about 3-3.5 billion.

As you say, ultimately the Compensation board would be self-financing.

Yes and I explained how. Do you need me to repeat how that would happen? By the way let me strip you of all your property.This way my compensation Bank will never have any problems.Is that acceptable to you?

Tell me this, if Vassiliou's report did not reach positive conclusions, can you explain why he concludes with the following on page 42:

See how superficial your reading was? Yes half the page you refer says that, however you forgot to look further from pages 42-45 where he describes the recomendations/changes to the Anan Plan for that conclussion to be true.Furthermore the section is not tittled conclussions. It's tittled Conclussions AND Reccomendations

Forgive me, but if his report found otherwise, why would he write this as his conclusion?

Again it is more than obvious you did not really read Vassilious study in depth. In fact from the very first pages he proved both Constituent States would get bankrupt from the very first year.He made his recommendation regarding the changing of the proportion of VAT to be returned from the common State to the Constituent States, and concluded everything would then be fine. But hey, that was not agreed in the Anan Plan!!! In each and every section Vasiliou was coming to conclusions and recomendations like that. It's very nice to make conclussions based on changes that have never been included in the Anan Plan, isn’t it?

Or perhaps you simply read up to the £16bn point and thought you'd read all there was to read... you make a fine argument in principle, but when it comes to actual analysis,

I simpy read the 16bn figure???!!!! Are you sure?

you need to read the report again.

No thank you! I spent almost a week studying it, cross referencing it, etc etc, not just reading it. I feel I am in a better position to evaluate it for what it really was, compared with you.(No offense meant). And I really don't want to spend another week refreshing my memory just to debate this matter with you! IT IS A RESPECTABLE study, but I think you have to read it yourself in depth to see where his conclussions are based on facts and where not, where his predictions came true and where not, and where he just assumes and hopes for the best and where not.
As an example notice that when Vassiliou was asked to comment on the following paragraph regarding how much he expected the international donors to offer

"Resettlement of displaced persons in Varosha and the other areas to be returned to the
G/C Constituent State, as well as of the T/C who will have to relocate, will cost several
billions. However, significant contributions by international donors can be expected and
this whole process will lead to speeding up the growth of the economy, creating a huge
demand for construction and other services.

He said: At least 5 billion. Well we all know the actual figure was 1/10th of that. The US were expected to offer at least 1 billion. They offered 1/5th.....

By the way almost ANY solution will bring up a new prosperity in Cyprus. You don't need an expert economist to tell you that.The problem is whether in that solution everybody will be treated fairly or whether some people will become millionaires overnight on the expense of the GC refugees

PS. A friend told me this forum revolves on the same issues OVER AND OVER AGAIN. How right he was! Where were you CM one year ago when this issue was worth discussing?

[-mikkie2-]

By the way almost ANY solution will bring up a new prosperity in Cyprus. You don't need an expert economist to tell you that.The problem is whether in that solution everybody will be treated fairly or whether some people will become millionaires overnight on the expense of the GC refugees

The Annan plan as it was would have given these magical bonds to the GC's which they would cash in after many years. In my view junk bonds worth ZERO pounds in just a few years let alone 20 years. We all know that property prices are firstly volatile and secondly can very easily outstrip inflation. This has been happening in Cyprus in the last few years. We have been seeing the doubling of prices in a year! Bonds are linked to long term interests rates which are now at a historically low level and willbe even lower once Cyprus is part of the Euro zone.

The instant millionairs will be the foreigners that bought GC property, the Turkish businessmen that have been building and selling them and the TC's that have been given property by the pseudo. That is what would probably happen if the A5 plan was approved.

The solution is that refugees should be allowed to exercise their basic human rights, to have the CHOICE to return to their lands and properties and if not to be adequately compensated by the persons wishing to remain in these properties, with Turkey lending a helping hand to pay.

The donors conference before the referenda was a sham as MicAtCyp has rightly pointed out, with the express view at deceiving the electorate into believing that the foreigners would help pay for the cost of implementation. The figures never did and will never add up. The only way was to obviously disenfranchise the refugees and effectively strip them of their property rights by giving them peanuts and worthless bits of paper.

If there is any hope of a fair solution, the issue of properties and how they are handled is the key. The Turks at the moment are busy undermining this essential requirement for a solution by massively building on GC land. Any TC that blames this development on the GC's is a fool and they are essentially selling out Cyprus at the expense of the TC's themselves and the GC's.

[cannedmoose]

MicAtCyp, like VP I'm getting a little tired of your blatently supercilious attitude, yes you are well-studied and have some valid points to contribute, but you seem to have some sort of superiority complex and this is transmitted through the language you use in response to every post that challenges your entrenched opinions.

If I had a week to spend analysing Vassiliou's paper to death I would certainly confront you in debate on it. Unfortunately, I don't and to be honest I can't really be bothered to, since it was a VERY minor point in my previous post. I understand that he made recommendations on how the AP could be improved to further smooth the integration of the two economies, however, you seem to deny that on balance, Vassiliou's report was a warm endorsement of the majority of the APs principles. Was it not widely reported as such? Or was this all a media conspiracy to convince everyone that this was so, in total denial of the reports REAL contents?

Anyway, I've wasted enough time trying to explain what was a small reference in an earlier post. I suggest you read the other report I linked to, I know one of the authors if you wish to debate any of the points therein with them...