Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

Lets get some facts straight:

1) Cyprus is as Greek as any other Greek territory and island. Cyprus has been occupied by foreign rulers, just like the rest of Greece, and Cyprus was part of the Ottoman empire, just like the rest of Greece. In fact the Turks occupied Athens and many other Greek (and not only) territories for far longer than they occupied Cyprus. Similarly, Turkish (Muslim) minorities were formed in many other Greek territories and islands (and most other territories the Ottomans occupied).

2) The Greek state was formed when Greek territories and islands were gradually liberated from their foreign rulers. The first territories were liberated with the revolution of 1821, and the last territories to unite (=enosis) with the Greek state were liberated in 1948.

3) Liberation from foreign rulers meant Cyprus becoming part part of the free Greek state, like it happened to those other territories earlier, and that is what the native in their great majority Cypriots wanted.

4) At that time the Church leadership was what represented Cypriots, since we were not allowed to elect our own goverment.

5) The referendum/petition that you talk about in this thread happened exactly because our foreign rulers did not allow the Cypriot people to decide in a democratic way their own destiny. Some years earlier the British themselves were promising to Greece that they would allow Cyprus to be part of the Greek state if Greece had joined the war on their side. Apparently it was OK for them to trade Cyprus as they wished, but not OK to let the Cypriot people decide the destiny of their own island in a democratic way.

6) The Cypriots after having Turks, British and others taking the decisions for their own island they simply wanted the freedom to decide the destiny of their own territory, something that naturally translated to union with Greece, one of the 3 legitimate options according to the UN resolution for decolonization. We didn't want any conflict or any harm to anybody else, and no harm would have been caused if some foreigners (British and Turks) did not insist on imposing their rule over our island. When we started our liberation struggle in 1955 we exclusively targeted the colonialists and nobody else. The conflict with TCs started only when the TCs attacked us, and when they started making demands that we should be exterminated from half of our island.

7) The first one to ever propose independence for Cyprus was Makarios. Until then nobody had thought of such thing, thats why there was actually no independent island in the Mediterranean sea. Cyprus is too small to be truly independent, and obviously Cypriots would prefer to be part of a free Greek state, than to continue to be ruled by British and Turks.

A Cypriot is as Cypriot as a Cretan is a Cretan, and as an Athenian is an Athenian. Being Greek and being Cypriot is not something contradictory. I am Limassolian, Cypriot, Greek, European, human on planet earth. Being from Limassol doesn't mean I can not be Cypriot. It actually means I am most probably Cypriot. And being Cypriot means that I am most probably Greek. And being Greek means that I am European.

When you talk about an era you have to consider the facts of that era. Comparing for example the role of the church back then with its role today is somehting completely wrong.

Malta, much smaller and independent.

Malta became independent in 1964. In 1950 that we are talking about here there was no independent island in the Mediterranean.

I started to post that very same answer last night, but thought even VP could not be that stupid to not know that (or look it up) ... and decided he must be setting a trap to say the "trnc" should also gain independence and not be told it is too small. I will be interested to find out now what he did mean with his over-simple statement.

[Piratis]

Lets get some facts straight:

Your need to reaffirm your belief of a Hellenic inheritance for Cyprus, to which I don’t agree but that’s another story, is irrelevant to this thread and I’m quite surprised you brought it up.

I wish you’d comment on the likelihood of a botched “election”. ie…

If I assume that a democratic referendum took place giving the people a clear YES/NO choice to select, how was it possible that 96% voted in favor when…

1. Sick and elderly people that were bed-ridden could not attend to vote.
2. A large number of people employed by the British were very happy with the status quo and not prepared to risk their jobs, etc, for some unknown “dream”.
3. Many communists were not in favor of union with Greece.
4. Any other group I fail to recall that was unable and/or unwilling.

Are we to believe that all the above people only constituted 4% of the GC population?

GR, we had asked for an official referendum but the British denied this to us because they knew what the result would be and they didn't like it.
For example some years ago the British made a referendum in Gibraltar because they knew the result would suit them. In Cyprus that they knew the result would not suit them they didn't made a referendum. Very convenient for them!

The unofficial referendum might not have been perfect, but I think it is representative of the will of the Greek Cypriot people at the time.

1) Sick and elderly not attending can not affect the result, unless there is some reason that those groups of people would vote in a different way than the general population and I don't see why they would.

2) Apart from those that had high positions I don't see why this would be the case. That 4% could easily include these people.

3) Communists were against the armed struggle, they were not against union with Greece at that time.

[Piratis]

Lets get some facts straight:

1) Cyprus is as Greek as any other Greek territory and island. Cyprus has been occupied by foreign rulers, just like the rest of Greece, and Cyprus was part of the Ottoman empire, just like the rest of Greece. In fact the Turks occupied Athens and many other Greek (and not only) territories for far longer than they occupied Cyprus. Similarly, Turkish (Muslim) minorities were formed in many other Greek territories and islands (and most other territories the Ottomans occupied).

2) The Greek state was formed when Greek territories and islands were gradually liberated from their foreign rulers. The first territories were liberated with the revolution of 1821, and the last territories to unite (=enosis) with the Greek state were liberated in 1948.

3) Liberation from foreign rulers meant Cyprus becoming part part of the free Greek state, like it happened to those other territories earlier, and that is what the native in their great majority Cypriots wanted.

4) At that time the Church leadership was what represented Cypriots, since we were not allowed to elect our own goverment.

5) The referendum/petition that you talk about in this thread happened exactly because our foreign rulers did not allow the Cypriot people to decide in a democratic way their own destiny. Some years earlier the British themselves were promising to Greece that they would allow Cyprus to be part of the Greek state if Greece had joined the war on their side. Apparently it was OK for them to trade Cyprus as they wished, but not OK to let the Cypriot people decide the destiny of their own island in a democratic way.

6) The Cypriots after having Turks, British and others taking the decisions for their own island they simply wanted the freedom to decide the destiny of their own territory, something that naturally translated to union with Greece, one of the 3 legitimate options according to the UN resolution for decolonization. We didn't want any conflict or any harm to anybody else, and no harm would have been caused if some foreigners (British and Turks) did not insist on imposing their rule over our island. When we started our liberation struggle in 1955 we exclusively targeted the colonialists and nobody else. The conflict with TCs started only when the TCs attacked us, and when they started making demands that we should be exterminated from half of our island.

7) The first one to ever propose independence for Cyprus was Makarios. Until then nobody had thought of such thing, thats why there was actually no independent island in the Mediterranean sea. Cyprus is too small to be truly independent, and obviously Cypriots would prefer to be part of a free Greek state, than to continue to be ruled by British and Turks.

A Cypriot is as Cypriot as a Cretan is a Cretan, and as an Athenian is an Athenian. Being Greek and being Cypriot is not something contradictory. I am Limassolian, Cypriot, Greek, European, human on planet earth. Being from Limassol doesn't mean I can not be Cypriot. It actually means I am most probably Cypriot. And being Cypriot means that I am most probably Greek. And being Greek means that I am European.

When you talk about an era you have to consider the facts of that era. Comparing for example the role of the church back then with its role today is somehting completely wrong.

Malta, much smaller and independent.

Malta became independent in 1964. In 1950 that we are talking about here there was no independent island in the Mediterranean.

I started to post that very same answer last night, but thought even VP could not be that stupid to not know that (or look it up) ... and decided he must be setting a trap to say the "trnc" should also gain independence and not be told it is too small. I will be interested to find out now what he did mean with his over-simple statement.

Size was never the issue here. The land grab and the ethnic cleansing are the issues.

[denizaksulu]

2. How did the Church manage to conduct any form of credible island-wide “voting” survey from which to extract any meaningful statistics, given that the British who were in control of the island did not assist them and were even against this?

Stop writing in riddles GR annd get to the point for God's sake

Is the Greek Orthodox Church credible or not

I think I'm going to commit a crime!

This thread isn't about the bloody Greek Orthodox Church's overall credibility!!! Hell, I don't even have to research that... I can tell you now:

The Greek Orthodox Church doesn't have any!

This thread is about the VALIDITY, ACCURACY, and RELEVANCE, of that God-forsaken 1950 "ENOSIS referendum", which so far I find to be nothing less than a cheap Greek Orthodox Church scam to "fool" the British.

GR, stop knocking walls down with your head. If they cant understand the point of your post, let them die ignorant.

It is very enlightening to see how these referandi results were announced. Like juggling with figures, you can hoodwink the masses quite easily.

Thanks for the info GR. As Talisker points out the use of the words 'total population' and 'church goers' can change the true meaning significantly. But then I am sure there were some 'Enosis'ists who would not attend church, but that would be a different story.

[Talisker]

Lets get some facts straight:

Your need to reaffirm your belief of a Hellenic inheritance for Cyprus, to which I don’t agree but that’s another story, is irrelevant to this thread and I’m quite surprised you brought it up.

I wish you’d comment on the likelihood of a botched “election”. ie…

If I assume that a democratic referendum took place giving the people a clear YES/NO choice to select, how was it possible that 96% voted in favor when…

1. Sick and elderly people that were bed-ridden could not attend to vote.
2. A large number of people employed by the British were very happy with the status quo and not prepared to risk their jobs, etc, for some unknown “dream”.
3. Many communists were not in favor of union with Greece.
4. Any other group I fail to recall that was unable and/or unwilling.

Are we to believe that all the above people only constituted 4% of the GC population?

GR, we had asked for an official referendum but the British denied this to us because they knew what the result would be and they didn't like it.
For example some years ago the British made a referendum in Gibraltar because they knew the result would suit them. In Cyprus that they knew the result would not suit them they didn't made a referendum. Very convenient for them!

The unofficial referendum might not have been perfect, but I think it is representative of the will of the Greek Cypriot people at the time.

1) Sick and elderly not attending can not affect the result, unless there is some reason that those groups of people would vote in a different way than the general population and I don't see why they would.

2) Apart from those that had high positions I don't see why this would be the case. That 4% could easily include these people.

3) Communists were against the armed struggle, they were not against union with Greece at that time.

Seems like we're having a problem finding out the fine (but vitally important) detail on how this referendum/petition was run. Don't any of the GCs have parents/uncles/aunts/grandparents who can recall this event? Might not be 'documented evidence' but word of mouth can be useful!

[Oracle]

None of the references say it was a petition ...

(only one said it was a plebiscite ... which in those days just meant all were asked to vote ...)

[Talisker]

None of the references say it was a petition ...

I know. I'm just giving some benefit of the doubt away freely at the moment!

[Gabira]

2. How did the Church manage to conduct any form of credible island-wide “voting” survey from which to extract any meaningful statistics, given that the British who were in control of the island did not assist them and were even against this?

Stop writing in riddles GR annd get to the point for God's sake

Is the Greek Orthodox Church credible or not

I think I'm going to commit a crime!

This thread isn't about the bloody Greek Orthodox Church's overall credibility!!! Hell, I don't even have to research that... I can tell you now:

The Greek Orthodox Church doesn't have any!

This thread is about the VALIDITY, ACCURACY, and RELEVANCE, of that God-forsaken 1950 "ENOSIS referendum", which so far I find to be nothing less than a cheap Greek Orthodox Church scam to "fool" the British.

I can appreciate that you truly are a loyal supporter of maintaining the entertainment on this forum GR and we do thank you again for this pointless exercise of trying to prove if the ENOSIS referendum was official or not.

What bloody difference does it make ?

Unfortunately, the acts of bringing ENOSIS to fruition were carried out by GC's in the era. As a result, GC's destroyed the little trust left between the TC's and GC's at the time. Sadly, GC's expectedly consorted with their Church and committed a colosal mistake for the future of all Cypriots. The minimal resistance towards ENOSIS by GC's at the time is still a reflection of GC attitudes today, a fascist one.

Regardless of "official" referendum or not, the only GC's of the whole population who defied the majority during the ENOSIS dream were slaughtered by their own, resulting in the claimed 1619 odd missing GC's from that period.

The reality is that GC's did not care whether there was ENOSIS or not, they could accept any outcome (excluding a final result which still included TC's). The ultimate goal for GC's was to rid the Island of the British & TC's (whom GC's thought would be a pushover), then they believed that they could deal with anything else after that. ENOSIS was just one of many vehicles GC's used to EXTERMINATE TC's. The GC's under estimated the resistance of TC's and their will to survive against all odds.

Imagine the disatrous consequences that could have eventuated for GC's if TC's or Turkey were equally as fascist as what many GC's are, even today.

[Get Real!]

Unfortunately, the acts of bringing ENOSIS to fruition were carried out by GC's in the era. As a result, GC's destroyed the little trust left between the TC's and GC's at the time. Sadly, GC's expectedly consorted with their Church and committed a colosal mistake for the future of all Cypriots. The minimal resistance towards ENOSIS by GC's at the time is still a reflection of GC attitudes today, a fascist one.

Regardless of "official" referendum or not, the only GC's of the whole population who defied the majority during the ENOSIS dream were slaughtered by their own, resulting in the claimed 1619 odd missing GC's from that period.

The reality is that GC's did not care whether there was ENOSIS or not, they could accept any outcome (excluding a final result which still included TC's). The ultimate goal for GC's was to rid the Island of the British & TC's (whom GC's thought would be a pushover), then they believed that they could deal with anything else after that. ENOSIS was just one of many vehicles GC's used to EXTERMINATE TC's. The GC's under estimated the resistance of TC's and their will to survive against all odds.

The problem is that, unlike many other forums we don’t accept people’s assumptions, or gut feeling, or wishful thinking, when it comes to historical facts here on the Cyprus Forum, so unless you post CREDIBLE LINKS to back your allegations you’re just propagating misinformation and will be ignored.

PS: To make it easier for you I’ve bolded what you need to provide credible links to.

If you can’t be bothered then you’re not prepared to research in which case you don’t belong in the Cyprus Problem section I’m afraid.

[Gabira]

GR, it wouldn't matter what supporting site was posted. Whilst you only accept your own personal version of events in Cyprus, you are incapable to deem any source posted credible which would not serve your colourful agenda.

I speak from both personal and direct family accounts and experience in relation to the events in Cyprus.