Cyprus-Forum.com

[Eric dayi]

Again agree completely, and I applaud you for this. In fact, although it is a challenge to find the facts relating to these historical matters it is a necessary exercise particularly if they are used to influence current strategic and political thinking. However, as Cyprus is now in the EU, and ties with Greece reduced, these issues may be less important. I like the fact that some forumers have stressed the importance of Cyprus maturing without dependence on Greece over the last few decades, and it certainly has done so to the point where it is an economically successful country, still with significant geopolitical influence. They point out that TCs could learn something from examining closely why GCs have prospered since 1974 (other than always complaining that they could have done the same were it not for international isolation and embargoes, etc), the loosening of ties with Greece being an important part of this process. I think this is a really positive message to present to the TCs - cut the ties to the motherland (Turkey in their case) and you too can prosper - although the trust and security within a new political framework may be difficult to establish. Just my opinion.............

Regards,
Talisker

And how exactly did you expect the TCs to cut the ties with Turkey and prosper under isolations?

You don't really mean that we TCs should have surrendered to the GCs and allowed themto rule the island on their own and have their ENOSIS if they still wanted to (which they did at the time)?

Opinions is good but in a similar situation and hand on your heart, what would you advise your people to do?

I'm hoping there are opportunities to move ahead now. What is done is done, and although it is useful to have an accurate understanding of past events, it is the way forward that is important. Cyprus is in the EU. If reunification occurred do you really believe that TCs would be in danger? I'm certain that at the first hint of trouble EU military forces would be straight into Cyprus - as far as the EU goes they could not afford to do nothing, and the GCs would be making a major mistake, and risking all the gains of the last thirty years or so, if they allowed such a situation to occur. Of course I understand you want guarantees of security. I think you will get that from being part of a fully-fledged EU country, and that your future economic advancement will come through partnership with the GCs rather than continued reliance on the 'motherland'. Just my opinion...........

Sorry Talisker, but I asked you what you would do if it was your people involved, what you have told me above is nothing less/more then what the GCs claim.

So I'll ask the same question again:

Opinions is good but in a similar situation and hand on your heart, what would you advise your people to do?

and,

What sort of "partnership" are you talking about?

[Talisker]

Again agree completely, and I applaud you for this. In fact, although it is a challenge to find the facts relating to these historical matters it is a necessary exercise particularly if they are used to influence current strategic and political thinking. However, as Cyprus is now in the EU, and ties with Greece reduced, these issues may be less important. I like the fact that some forumers have stressed the importance of Cyprus maturing without dependence on Greece over the last few decades, and it certainly has done so to the point where it is an economically successful country, still with significant geopolitical influence. They point out that TCs could learn something from examining closely why GCs have prospered since 1974 (other than always complaining that they could have done the same were it not for international isolation and embargoes, etc), the loosening of ties with Greece being an important part of this process. I think this is a really positive message to present to the TCs - cut the ties to the motherland (Turkey in their case) and you too can prosper - although the trust and security within a new political framework may be difficult to establish. Just my opinion.............

Regards,
Talisker

And how exactly did you expect the TCs to cut the ties with Turkey and prosper under isolations?

You don't really mean that we TCs should have surrendered to the GCs and allowed themto rule the island on their own and have their ENOSIS if they still wanted to (which they did at the time)?

Opinions is good but in a similar situation and hand on your heart, what would you advise your people to do?

I'm hoping there are opportunities to move ahead now. What is done is done, and although it is useful to have an accurate understanding of past events, it is the way forward that is important. Cyprus is in the EU. If reunification occurred do you really believe that TCs would be in danger? I'm certain that at the first hint of trouble EU military forces would be straight into Cyprus - as far as the EU goes they could not afford to do nothing, and the GCs would be making a major mistake, and risking all the gains of the last thirty years or so, if they allowed such a situation to occur. Of course I understand you want guarantees of security. I think you will get that from being part of a fully-fledged EU country, and that your future economic advancement will come through partnership with the GCs rather than continued reliance on the 'motherland'. Just my opinion...........

There are no EU forces and the TCs do not trust the EU to protect them in times of crisis. The only way out of this problem would be for Turkey guarantee over the north state only.

Both sides need a transition period to show everything works well and trust is built that will provide for cooperation between the 2 communities, this will in turn make both sides more comfortable with not demanding safeguards which make the other side uncomfortable.

Of course there are 'EU forces' - examples of EU active forces or peacekeepers below, usually coordinated action of individual EU member states forces, often in concert with NATO or the UN.

In Afghanistan:
http://www.afghanconflictmonitor.org/20 ... ks-eu.html

In Chad:
http://www.upi.com/International_Securi ... _jan/2784/

In Kosovo:
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/02/ ... efense.php

So imagine what would happen if there was an internal EU conflict. This would not be ignored!

I hope that this realisation will help TCs have some trust in security issues in any future settlement where Turkey plays less of a role (ideally none) in Cyprus.

[Talisker]

Again agree completely, and I applaud you for this. In fact, although it is a challenge to find the facts relating to these historical matters it is a necessary exercise particularly if they are used to influence current strategic and political thinking. However, as Cyprus is now in the EU, and ties with Greece reduced, these issues may be less important. I like the fact that some forumers have stressed the importance of Cyprus maturing without dependence on Greece over the last few decades, and it certainly has done so to the point where it is an economically successful country, still with significant geopolitical influence. They point out that TCs could learn something from examining closely why GCs have prospered since 1974 (other than always complaining that they could have done the same were it not for international isolation and embargoes, etc), the loosening of ties with Greece being an important part of this process. I think this is a really positive message to present to the TCs - cut the ties to the motherland (Turkey in their case) and you too can prosper - although the trust and security within a new political framework may be difficult to establish. Just my opinion.............

Regards,
Talisker

And how exactly did you expect the TCs to cut the ties with Turkey and prosper under isolations?

You don't really mean that we TCs should have surrendered to the GCs and allowed themto rule the island on their own and have their ENOSIS if they still wanted to (which they did at the time)?

Opinions is good but in a similar situation and hand on your heart, what would you advise your people to do?

I'm hoping there are opportunities to move ahead now. What is done is done, and although it is useful to have an accurate understanding of past events, it is the way forward that is important. Cyprus is in the EU. If reunification occurred do you really believe that TCs would be in danger? I'm certain that at the first hint of trouble EU military forces would be straight into Cyprus - as far as the EU goes they could not afford to do nothing, and the GCs would be making a major mistake, and risking all the gains of the last thirty years or so, if they allowed such a situation to occur. Of course I understand you want guarantees of security. I think you will get that from being part of a fully-fledged EU country, and that your future economic advancement will come through partnership with the GCs rather than continued reliance on the 'motherland'. Just my opinion...........

Sorry Talisker, but I asked you what you would do if it was your people involved, what you have told me above is nothing less/more then what the GCs claim.

So I'll ask the same question again:

Opinions is good but in a similar situation and hand on your heart, what would you advise your people to do?

and,

What sort of "partnership" are you talking about?

Unlike many Brits I have great faith in the EU. I would advise 'my people' to put their faith in the EU, of which Cyprus is a full member, and remind 'my people' that they will be offered all the advantages (including security and protection) of all other EU citizens. The GCs have moved on - they won't risk the economic gains they've made by threatening TCs, Greece has moved on, the ENOSIS dream (if it ever really existed) has long gone. A major step for Turkey towards EU membership is undoubtedly to assist in resolving the CyProb, so they have so much to gain from this also. I can see only winners in a sensible resolution. By partnership, I mean participation in a unified, democratically elected Cypriot parliament, which, in turn, is within the EU.

[Eric dayi]

There are no EU forces and the TCs do not trust the EU to protect them in times of crisis. The only way out of this problem would be for Turkey guarantee over the north state only.

Both sides need a transition period to show everything works well and trust is built that will provide for cooperation between the 2 communities, this will in turn make both sides more comfortable with not demanding safeguards which make the other side uncomfortable.

Of course there are 'EU forces' - examples of EU active forces or peacekeepers below, usually coordinated action of individual EU member states forces, often in concert with NATO or the UN.

In Afghanistan:
http://www.afghanconflictmonitor.org/20 ... ks-eu.html

Canada asks for more soldiers, Germany refuses.:roll::roll::roll::roll:

In Chad:
http://www.upi.com/International_Securi ... _jan/2784/

"Analysis: EU force may reach Chad in Jan."....may reach. :roll::roll::roll::roll:

In Kosovo:
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/02/ ... efense.php

Oh come on. :roll::roll::roll::roll:

So imagine what would happen if there was an internal EU conflict. This would not be ignored!

By the time the EU gets off it's backside there will be no more "troubles" in Cyprus, and no more TCs.

I hope that this realisation will help TCs have some trust in security issues in any future settlement where Turkey plays less of a role (ideally none) in Cyprus.

Thanks but no thanks.

I think we'll stick with Turkey.

The EU is worse than the UN was in the 60's and 70's.

[Oracle]

The EU is worse than the UN was in the 60's and 70's.

Why would Turkey be so desperate to join such an awful establishment then?

[Eric dayi]

The EU is worse than the UN was in the 60's and 70's.

Why would Turkey be so desperate to join such an awful establishment then?

In case you have forgotten Erdogan said "it isn't the end of the world for Turkey if Turkey is not allowed to join the EU" (or similar).

Turkey has also been pressured to recognise the so-called "RoC" but Turkey hasn't.

The support for the EU accession in Turkey is falling.

Does that sound like Turkey is "desperate to join"?

[Piratis]

Lets get some facts straight:

1) Cyprus is as Greek as any other Greek territory and island. Cyprus has been occupied by foreign rulers, just like the rest of Greece, and Cyprus was part of the Ottoman empire, just like the rest of Greece. In fact the Turks occupied Athens and many other Greek (and not only) territories for far longer than they occupied Cyprus. Similarly, Turkish (Muslim) minorities were formed in many other Greek territories and islands (and most other territories the Ottomans occupied).

2) The Greek state was formed when Greek territories and islands were gradually liberated from their foreign rulers. The first territories were liberated with the revolution of 1821, and the last territories to unite (=enosis) with the Greek state were liberated in 1948.

3) Liberation from foreign rulers meant Cyprus becoming part part of the free Greek state, like it happened to those other territories earlier, and that is what the native in their great majority Cypriots wanted.

4) At that time the Church leadership was what represented Cypriots, since we were not allowed to elect our own goverment.

5) The referendum/petition that you talk about in this thread happened exactly because our foreign rulers did not allow the Cypriot people to decide in a democratic way their own destiny. Some years earlier the British themselves were promising to Greece that they would allow Cyprus to be part of the Greek state if Greece had joined the war on their side. Apparently it was OK for them to trade Cyprus as they wished, but not OK to let the Cypriot people decide the destiny of their own island in a democratic way.

6) The Cypriots after having Turks, British and others taking the decisions for their own island they simply wanted the freedom to decide the destiny of their own territory, something that naturally translated to union with Greece, one of the 3 legitimate options according to the UN resolution for decolonization. We didn't want any conflict or any harm to anybody else, and no harm would have been caused if some foreigners (British and Turks) did not insist on imposing their rule over our island. When we started our liberation struggle in 1955 we exclusively targeted the colonialists and nobody else. The conflict with TCs started only when the TCs attacked us, and when they started making demands that we should be exterminated from half of our island.

7) The first one to ever propose independence for Cyprus was Makarios. Until then nobody had thought of such thing, thats why there was actually no independent island in the Mediterranean sea. Cyprus is too small to be truly independent, and obviously Cypriots would prefer to be part of a free Greek state, than to continue to be ruled by British and Turks.

8) A Cypriot is as Cypriot as a Cretan is a Cretan, and as an Athenian is an Athenian. Being Greek and being Cypriot is not something contradictory. I am Limassolian, Cypriot, Greek, European, human on planet earth. Being from Limassol doesn't mean I can not be Cypriot. It actually means I am most probably Cypriot. And being Cypriot means that I am most probably Greek. And being Greek means that I am European.

When you talk about an era you have to consider the facts of that era. Comparing for example the role of the church back then with its role today is somehting completely wrong.

[Viewpoint]

Lets get some facts straight:

1) Cyprus is as Greek as any other Greek territory and island. Cyprus has been occupied by foreign rulers, just like the rest of Greece, and Cyprus was part of the Ottoman empire, just like the rest of Greece. In fact the Turks occupied Athens and many other Greek (and not only) territories for far longer than they occupied Cyprus. Similarly, Turkish (Muslim) minorities were formed in many other Greek territories and islands (and most other territories the Ottomans occupied).

2) The Greek state was formed when Greek territories and islands were gradually liberated from their foreign rulers. The first territories were liberated with the revolution of 1821, and the last territories to unite (=enosis) with the Greek state were liberated in 1948.

3) Liberation from foreign rulers meant Cyprus becoming part part of the free Greek state, like it happened to those other territories earlier, and that is what the native in their great majority Cypriots wanted.

4) At that time the Church leadership was what represented Cypriots, since we were not allowed to elect our own goverment.

5) The referendum/petition that you talk about in this thread happened exactly because our foreign rulers did not allow the Cypriot people to decide in a democratic way their own destiny. Some years earlier the British themselves were promising to Greece that they would allow Cyprus to be part of the Greek state if Greece had joined the war on their side. Apparently it was OK for them to trade Cyprus as they wished, but not OK to let the Cypriot people decide the destiny of their own island in a democratic way.

6) The Cypriots after having Turks, British and others taking the decisions for their own island they simply wanted the freedom to decide the destiny of their own territory, something that naturally translated to union with Greece, one of the 3 legitimate options according to the UN resolution for decolonization. We didn't want any conflict or any harm to anybody else, and no harm would have been caused if some foreigners (British and Turks) did not insist on imposing their rule over our island. When we started our liberation struggle in 1955 we exclusively targeted the colonialists and nobody else. The conflict with TCs started only when the TCs attacked us, and when they started making demands that we should be exterminated from half of our island.

7) The first one to ever propose independence for Cyprus was Makarios. Until then nobody had thought of such thing, thats why there was actually no independent island in the Mediterranean sea. Cyprus is too small to be truly independent, and obviously Cypriots would prefer to be part of a free Greek state, than to continue to be ruled by British and Turks.

A Cypriot is as Cypriot as a Cretan is a Cretan, and as an Athenian is an Athenian. Being Greek and being Cypriot is not something contradictory. I am Limassolian, Cypriot, Greek, European, human on planet earth. Being from Limassol doesn't mean I can not be Cypriot. It actually means I am most probably Cypriot. And being Cypriot means that I am most probably Greek. And being Greek means that I am European.

When you talk about an era you have to consider the facts of that era. Comparing for example the role of the church back then with its role today is somehting completely wrong.

Malta, much smaller and independent.

[FullMetalTurk]

Lets get some facts straight:

1) Cyprus is as Greek as any other Greek territory and island. .

"lets get some facts staright" lets do.
the very first people to discover cyprus were nomads from the middle east who sailed to the island, resided temporarily, then left. this was in 8000 BC. then came the Khirokitians who died out a few centuries later. then followed Hittite and ancient egyptian rule in 2000 BC. Hellenistic rule was only between 333 and 58 BC - just 275 years. then until 1571 it was roman - byzantine, venetian etc.
the fact is, greeks have always lived on the island after the ancient egyptians left, but cyprus has never been a greek island. if you call it a roman island fair enough, because it was under byzantine and venetian rule, but then i would have the right to call it an ottoman island.

[Get Real!]

Lets get some facts straight:

Your need to reaffirm your belief of a Hellenic inheritance for Cyprus, to which I don’t agree but that’s another story, is irrelevant to this thread and I’m quite surprised you brought it up.

I wish you’d comment on the likelihood of a botched “election”. ie…

If I assume that a democratic referendum took place giving the people a clear YES/NO choice to select, how was it possible that 96% voted in favor when…

1. Sick and elderly people that were bed-ridden could not attend to vote.
2. A large number of people employed by the British were very happy with the status quo and not prepared to risk their jobs, etc, for some unknown “dream”.
3. Many communists were not in favor of union with Greece.
4. Any other group I fail to recall that was unable and/or unwilling.

Are we to believe that all the above people only constituted 4% of the GC population?